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ORIGINAL: inthysite

Since everyone loves to quote the Department of Energy on this subject here are excerpts from a study that was prepared for them by their own appointed committee The National Petroleum Council:

The National Petroleum Council is a federal advisory committee to the Secretary of Energy. The sole purpose of the National Petroleum Council is to advise, inform, and make recommendations to the Secretary of Energy on any matter requested by the Secretary relating to oil and natural gas or to the oil and gas industries.

During the last quarter-century, world energy demand has increased about 60 percent, supported by a global infrastructure that has expanded to a massive scale. Most forecasts for the next quartercentury project a similar percentage increase in energy demand from a much larger base. Oil and natural gas have played a significant role in supporting economic activity in the past, and will likely continue to do so in combination with other energy types. Over the coming decades, the world will need better energy efficiency and all economic, environmentally responsible energy sources available to support and sustain future growth.

The United States and the world face hard truths about the global energy future over the next 25 years:

Coal, oil, and natural gas will remain indispensable to meeting total projected energy demand growth.

The world is not running out of energy resources, but there are accumulating risks to continuing expansion of oil and natural gas production from the conventional sources relied upon historically. These risks create significant challenges to meeting projected energy demand.

To mitigate these risks, expansion of all economic energy sources will be required, including coal, nuclear, renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas. Each of these sources faces significant challenges—including safety, environmental, political,
or economic hurdles—and imposes infrastructure requirements for development and delivery.

“Energy Independence” should not be confused with strengthening energy security. The concept of energy independence is not r realistic in the foreseeable future, whereas U.S. energy security canbe enhanced by moderating demand, expanding and diversifying domestic energy supplies, and strengthening global energy trade and investment. There can be no U.S. energy security without global
energy security.

Free and open markets should be relied upon wherever possible to produce efficient solutions. Where markets need to be bolstered, policies should be implemented with care and consideration of possible unintended consequences. The Council proposes five core strategies to assist markets in meeting the energy challenges to 2030 and beyond. All five strategies are essential—there is no single, easy solution to the multiple challenges we face. However, the Council is confident that the prompt adoption of these strategies, along with a sustained commitment to implementation, will promote U.S. competitiveness by balancing economic, security, and environmental goals. The United States must:

Moderate the growing demand for energy by increasing efficiency of transportation, residential, commercial, and industrial uses.

Expand and diversify production from clean coal, nuclear, biomass, other renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas; moderate the decline of conventional domestic oil and natural gas production; and increase access for development of new resources.

Integrate energy policy into trade, economic, environmental, security, and foreign policies; strengthen global energy trade and investment; and broaden dialogue with both producing and consuming nations to improve global energy security.

Enhance science and engineering capabilities and create long-term opportunities for research and development in all phases of the energy supply and demand system.

Develop the legal and regulatory framework to enable carbon capture and sequestration (CCS). In addition, as policymakers consider options to reduce CO2 emissions, provide an effective global framework for carbon management, including establishment of a transparent, predictable, economy-wide cost for CO2 emissions.


This is just a very small part of a very large report, it was taken from the Executive Summary. You can view and download the entire report for free here:

Hard Truths - Facing the Hard Truths about Energy

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Thanks for agreeing, and for proving my point for me.

Interstig that even the petroleum industry's lobby/lapdog ALSO agrees - or didn't you notice that?

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Offshore drilling - or not - is not the issue.

The issue is that INCREASING the use of a depleting, non-renewable resource, as increasing production of crude oil does, makes no economic sense whatsoever. It is as senseless as hunting a species to extinction for economic gain.

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Coal, oil, and natural gas will remain indispensable to meeting total projected energy demand growth.

expansion of all economic energy sources will be required, including coal, nuclear, renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas.

Expand and diversify production from clean coal, nuclear, biomass, other renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas;

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ORIGINAL: inthysite

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Thanks for agreeing, and for proving my point for me.

Interstig that even the petroleum industry's lobby/lapdog ALSO agrees - or didn't you notice that?

I'm not sure how this agrees with the following statement you made:

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Offshore drilling - or not - is not the issue.

The issue is that INCREASING the use of a depleting, non-renewable resource, as increasing production of crude oil does, makes no economic sense whatsoever. It is as senseless as hunting a species to extinction for economic gain.

When the study clearly states the following:

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Coal, oil, and natural gas will remain indispensable to meeting total projected energy demand growth.

expansion of all economic energy sources will be required, including coal, nuclear, renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas.

Expand and diversify production from clean coal, nuclear, biomass, other renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas;

They clearly state that expanding the use of oil and natural gas is a necessity.

They also state that alternatives need to be part of this solution as well and I agree with that. But we need to further develop and expand all options to help both in the future and the here and now.

So I'm confused as to how this agrees with your position.

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You might want to read what they actually said a little more closely.

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ORIGINAL: huangshan

Sure, Obama flip flops occasionally. I don't really see a problem with it. He's selling himself as a flexible guy who can work across the partisan divide, and that's going to necessarily require a few compromises (though hopefully not in a few areas... I haven't been terribly disappointed yet though). A series of incremental victories (and using certain issues as bargaining chips) is a lot more feasible, I think, than never budging.

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ORIGINAL: saved9201

Conservatives' response to the government providing relief to homeowners:

"It's not my fault those people went out and bought those big ol' houses and now can't afford to pay for them. Why should the gubment get involived? People should learn not to depend on he gubment to rescue them when they make irresponsible decisions."

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ORIGINAL: todd_t

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He brought up the fact that cars today do not have tune-ups like they used to. The car's computer does all sorts of adjustments and corrections as it runs.

But checks on spark plugs, electrical wiring, fuel filters, pumps, distributors, and batteries are all part of a regular tune-up. No computer can maintain those systems; they'll always have to be replaced manually.

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ORIGINAL: inthysite

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You might want to read what they actually said a little more closely.

I have read it, several times as a matter of fact. So please either be a little more clear on your point or show me where I'm wrong.

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There are at least eight energy sources identified in that (petroleum industry lobby) report, and you are focusing only on the single element of conventional oil and gas production, ignoring the rest and also ignoring the qualifiers on even that one element.

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The issue is that INCREASING the use of a depleting, non-renewable resource, as increasing production of crude oil does, makes no economic sense whatsoever. It is as senseless as hunting a species to extinction for economic gain.

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Coal, oil, and natural gas will remain indispensable to meeting total projected energy demand growth.

expansion of all economic energy sources will be required, including coal, nuclear, renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas.

Expand and diversify production from clean coal, nuclear, biomass, other renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas;

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What part of the term "UNCONVENTIONAL oil and gas production" is giving you the most trouble?

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Again, if you will read the report you will see the statement where they recommend increasing the production of energy including the use of oil.

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Coal, oil, and natural gas will remain indispensable to meeting total projected energy demand growth.

expansion of all economic energy sources will be required, including coal, nuclear, renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas.

Expand and diversify production from clean coal, nuclear, biomass, other renewables, and unconventional oil and natural gas;

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Got it - the answer is to push domestic drilling that won't deliver a drop to the refineries for ten years, as opposed to investing in alternate energies that won't provide any benefit for ten years.

That makes sense to somebody, I suppose.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I think this discussion has gone far adrift.

The consensus that is developing is that alternative energies are not immediately forthcoming, and that the markets will partly ameliorated by a more aggressive attempt to locate and utilize domestic oil sources. At the very least this will provide a buffer until alternatives are fully developed, and it has the ever-beneficial end of making us more self-sufficient.

To this end Obama has missed the boat a bit, though he is now (along with Pelosi, apparently) rushing to catch up with the American public. McCain has had to move as well, just not as far. Anyone who pretends at this point that no drilling is necessary, or that alternatives are ready for prime time, is too out of touch to take seriously.

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Yes, I've noticed the drift too. Even the thread title is changed from Barack's Big Oil Ad to The McBush Oil Plan. It's all to shift the emphasis away from Obamessiah's lack of anything substantial besides windmills, solar panels, and tire pressure.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Yes, I've noticed the drift too. Even the thread title is changed from Barack's Big Oil Ad to The McBush Oil Plan. It's all to shift the emphasis away from Obamessiah's lack of anything substantial besides windmills, solar panels, and tire pressure.

Which is ironic given the recent claim that attacking one's opponent means that one has no substantive arguments to support one's candidate.

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I think this discussion has gone far adrift.

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Yes, I've noticed the drift too. Even the thread title is changed from Barack's Big Oil Ad to The McBush Oil Plan. It's all to shift the emphasis away from Obamessiah's lack of anything substantial besides windmills, solar panels, and tire pressure.

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The consensus that is developing is that alternative energies are not immediately forthcoming, and that the markets will partly ameliorated by a more aggressive attempt to locate and utilize domestic oil sources. At the very least this will provide a buffer until alternatives are fully developed, and it has the ever-beneficial end of making us more self-sufficient.

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'expand the use of energy including oil'

is not semantically equal to

'increase conventional production of oil'

as you keep trying to say it is.

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Yes, it makes sense to futures markets. That is why they are called 'futures', not 'presents'.

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That being the case, let's hear your substantive arguments to support your candidate.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

Just curious, because I have't been able to find any - as a professor at Chicago, how many papers did he publish?

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Your theory, of course, that his work as Professor of Constitutional Law is to be judged by the violume of his published work?

Try Googling "Obama Professor published papers" and enjoy a few of the 311,000 hits it generates.