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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/8/2008 8:24:14 PM
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buckifn
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No I am not doubting your salvation...but I am saying the Bible is clear anyone embracing sin is going to hell...and I was asking are you comfortable in supporting their decision to go there? Or would you feel obligated to do everything possible to help discourage them from going there?
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/8/2008 9:02:08 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
...and I was asking are you comfortable in supporting their decision to go there?
Oh yeah, of course I am. NOT!!
What a silly question!
quote:
Or would you feel obligated to do everything possible to help discourage them from going there?
Actually, that is what I feel could be accomplished by me attending.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/8/2008 9:25:31 PM
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MC4JC
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Unions/marriages are celebrations. You are happy for the couple, you want the best. Sorry but I cannot understand some of you "Christians" who think its perfectly ok to attend this.
Homosexuality is wrong. You can witness to the homosexuals WITHOUT condoning and attending a celebration of a lifestyle that you and God knows is wrong. Satan is the one at this celebration. He's "begging" you to come and celebrate this perverted union against God's laws and wills. Do you really want to participate in Satan's plans?
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/8/2008 9:33:58 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
MC4JC - please be careful that in your discussion of this topic, you don't slip into questioning the salvation of other posters. Please note TOS 6, which states in part, this:
You will not engage in name-calling or personal attacks in the course of discussion or debate. . . . Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable.
You have not explicitly done this, but referring to your fellow posters as "some of you 'Christians'" with "Christians" in quotes is borderline.
Thanks!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/8/2008 11:26:33 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8789
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I actually believe it can hurt our witness in the long run to go to things like this and support the person.
Manda, (and anyone else who would attend): if someone you knew was having an affair and cheating on their spouse and wanted to have some kind of formal ceremony to solidify their commitment to their "other lover" would you attend. I know we don't have such a thing now but if someone were to do something like taht would you attend to support your friend? it's the same thing: a ceremony to pledge commitment to someone they shouldn't (BIblically speaking) be commiting themselves to.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 2:19:08 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I actually believe it can hurt our witness in the long run to go to things like this and support the person.
Could you expand on this?
quote:
Manda, (and anyone else who would attend): if someone you knew was having an affair and cheating on their spouse and wanted to have some kind of formal ceremony to solidify their commitment to their "other lover" would you attend. I know we don't have such a thing now but if someone were to do something like taht would you attend to support your friend? it's the same thing: a ceremony to pledge commitment to someone they shouldn't (BIblically speaking) be commiting themselves to.
It is not the same (because one of the parties is being dishonest, perhaps to both the spouse and the other person, and if I knew, I'd have confronted the person long ago about their behaviour, and said that either they told their spouse, or I would), but, hypothetically and in principle, I would still likely say yes (NB the person would be in no doubt as to how I felt about what he/she was doing).
I'd consider myself also to be a visual reminder that what he/she was doing was wrong.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 6:54:41 AM
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buckifn
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Manda
I don't think the Bible teaches us compromise is the way to lead someone to Christ. Isn't celebrating a sinful union a compromise of faith? I know it would be for me. That's the part I couldn't get past and would return the invitation explaining that to the party who sent it. It's asking me to smile at sin and I just cannot do that knowing where the final destination leads.
I believe the Bible tells us we are to warn those we can to avoid hell and in the OT it also tells us to "cry loud and spare not" I just think that we cannot do that if we are celebrating sin with them.
How can we be the LIGHT of the world otherwise?
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 9:41:32 AM
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zoebob
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
I actually believe it can hurt our witness in the long run to go to things like this and support the person.
Could you expand on this
Because lots of the world sees Christians as wishy washy and not really being any different than non-Christians. They see us as hypocrits because they think we don't really act out what we say we believe in. If we say we believe a homosexual marriage is wrong but then go to a ceremony that celebrates and up holds it we aren't standing true to our faith. It's similar to children needing boundaries. Kids say that they woudl love to be able to do whatever they want with no rules but inreality they want to know there are rules and boundaries. If someone is going to soften towards Christiainity but then realizes that we who are Christians don't take a stand against something like Christianity when it might put a friendship on the line we look wishy washy. It's not loving to let someone or support someone doing something sinful. It is loving to say "I think this is wrong and I won't be involved in it but you are still my friend"
As for my hypothetical exampe, what if someone was having a 3 way marriage where all involved were OK with it? Or what if you grown daughter some day wanted to leave a loving, kind and godly husband for someone else? Would you go to the 3 way commitment ceremony? Would you give your DD help in any way in her new lifestyle: such as maybe helping her move in with her new boyfriend?
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 9:54:29 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Because lots of the world sees Christians as wishy washy and not really being any different than non-Christians. They see us as hypocrits because they think we don't really act out what we say we believe in.
That's not true here in the UK, not in my experience. We're more likely to be seen as narrow-minded bigots.
quote:
As for my hypothetical exampe, what if someone was having a 3 way marriage where all involved were OK with it? Or what if you grown daughter some day wanted to leave a loving, kind and godly husband for someone else? Would you go to the 3 way commitment ceremony? Would you give your DD help in any way in her new lifestyle: such as maybe helping her move in with her new boyfriend?
Yes, if God put it on my heart to go.
<envisages zoebob trying even harder to think of something even more extreme> lol
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 11:47:50 AM
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MC4JC
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This is a "slippery slope" deal. And its something we are warned about in the Bible. Things will be getting worse and worse before the end times. The homosexual marriage/union is one of the things.
We all know its wrong, God knows its wrong. We are to go and preach the truth - and its up to the people to accept on deny. Some churches are condoning these actions - clearly against Biblical teachings. Those are the false churches/false teachers.
And if you start by attending the gay unions, what's the next step? Poligomy? Any combination of "love"? Pagen love? We are called to share the gospel and Jesus, the son of God. There are many other ways we can do this without joining in the celebration of something we know is wrong.
I don't understand why the guy even sent a invitation knowing how the OP felt about homosexuality. IMO its Satan who is controlling all of this. He would like nothing better then to pervert what God made holy - marriage is between one man and one woman. Anything else it the product of the sin of man/woman and is NOT acceptable.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 12:08:29 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
I don't think the Bible teaches us compromise is the way to lead someone to Christ.
Nor do I.
quote:
Isn't celebrating a sinful union a compromise of faith? I know it would be for me.
Well, I would not be celebrating anything other than the existence of my friend. But, whatever, if for you it's a compromise then you should not go.
quote:
It's asking me to smile at sin and I just cannot do that knowing where the final destination leads.
Again, I wouldn't be smiling at sin. But if you or anyone feels they would be, then you and they should not go.
quote:
How can we be the LIGHT of the world otherwise?
For me, I would want to be a light to my friend by being there. I can't see how not being there would accomplish that. If anyone else feels God wants them to be a light by not being there, then they should not go.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 12:21:31 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8789
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quote:
quote:
:
Isn't celebrating a sinful union a compromise of faith? I know it would be for me.
Well, I would not be celebrating anything other than the existence of my friend. But, whatever, if for you it's a compromise then you should not go.
Then have a birthday party for the friend if you want to celebrate the existance of your friend. However, a wedding/commitment ceremony/etc is a celebration of the relationship. Just because you love a friend doesn't mean you have to be at every major life event. In general and to most people that ceremony is a celebration of a relationship not of the existance of that person.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 12:22:01 PM
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shadowspring
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I don't see how "being there" is being a light for your friend. It has nothing to do with Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity at all.
It is YOU being there for YOUR friend. It is natural phileo love to want to ensure your friend's continued appreciation and affection towards yourself.
quote:
James 4:4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
I think it is an delusion to think that a continued show of support for a brother intent on a sinful course of action will open up any new doors to lead said rebellious Christian back to God.
quote:
I Peter 4:1 1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead .
Of course the world will call us judgmental and heap abuse on us because we don't support their sinful lifestyles. It's supposed to be that way, according to St. Peter!
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 1:20:51 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
I don't see how "being there" is being a light for your friend. It has nothing to do with Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity at all.
It is YOU being there for YOUR friend. It is natural phileo love to want to ensure your friend's continued appreciation and affection towards yourself.
You clearly know nothing about me - that would not be my motive at all.
quote:
I think it is an delusion to think that a continued show of support for a brother intent on a sinful course of action will open up any new doors to lead said rebellious Christian back to God.
Well it isn't. I've experienced it a number of times. Btw though, might I remind you that the OP's friend is not a Christian.
quote:
Of course the world will call us judgmental and heap abuse on us because we don't support their sinful lifestyles.
Yup, and I've had my fair share of that too.
I will leave you with Jude 1 v 23:
Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;
Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And have mercy on those who doubt;
Jud 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
To me, it's a question of discerning to whom we are to show mercy with fear, and whom we are supposed to save by snatching them out of the fire, and how we are to do it.
Sometimes it is right to stay away, sometimes IMO it is not. It's not always right to go, nor always right to stay away. But it's always right to seek God's will, and He will make it clear, and give peace about it, regardless.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 2:00:21 PM
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shadowspring
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quote:
Btw though, might I remind you that the OP's friend is not a Christian.
But his partner claims to be a Christian. Did you miss that post?
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 2:36:58 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
quote:
Btw though, might I remind you that the OP's friend is not a Christian.
But his partner claims to be a Christian. Did you miss that post?
No I didn't. But I presumed that if she went she'd be going for her friend, not his partner.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 3:17:06 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1760
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quote:
Again, I wouldn't be smiling at sin. But if you or anyone feels they would be, then you and they should not go.
I think your (or any Christian's presence there) would be doing just that. I know in our wedding and in most other I have attended there is a part of the ceremony which says "before God and these witnesses...to me that is a sacred and holy part of the ceremony. Even if those words aren't spoken your presence does send a message approving the union.
How can you not see that?
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 7:46:38 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
I think your (or any Christian's presence there) would be doing just that.
Well I don't. We will have to agree to disagree on that.
quote:
Even if those words aren't spoken your presence does send a message approving the union.
It would evidently send that message to you (but then again you wouldn't be there, so it wouldn't send any message to you at all!!), but I do not believe you can say what message it would send to those there.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 9:12:12 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1760
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what message do you think your personal presence at such an event sends? Would Jesus go to such an event to celebrate open sin?
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/9/2008 9:18:12 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
what message do you think your personal presence at such an event sends? Would Jesus go to such an event to celebrate open sin?
To my friend, it would send the message that I cared about him, even though I didn't agree with what he was doing. As to whether Jesus would go, yes I believe He might, just as He associated with sinners when He dwelt amongst us here on earth.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/11/2008 8:12:29 AM
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sunshinesoprano
Posts: 938
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From: Georgia
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Let's not turn this into an "attack Manda" festival, either.
She's got an opinion, which clearly there are many who disagree with. I'm glad she's posting it.
I think one of the key points is this. Manda said she'd be going to celebrate the "existence" of that friend, and it was parried by, "have a birthday party." That's exactly what I'm saying.
The whole point of the ceremony is to celebrate and "bless" their relationship. I celebrated his extistence when I went to lunch with him Thursday, and every time we are together as friends.
I'm still praying about this and very torn, but definitely leaning toward not going.
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/11/2008 8:47:45 AM
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revbob4God
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Going--- to bless and celebrate the relationship vs not going, openly showing you disagree and continue to judge.
All I am saying is when you make a statement with your relatives, it is really really permanent and may be a source of ill feeling permanently.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/11/2008 9:18:45 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6016
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Manda said she'd be going to celebrate the "existence" of that friend
And to pray - silently, but pray all the same. I believe that praying there could have more effect than not being there. But that's just me. It's not right for everyone to face the spiritual forces of evil head-on - and there are times when I have walked away rather than confront them head-on. (I remember one time when I sensed a demonic presence, and the Lord clearly told me "don't engage him; this is not your battle")
Also just to be there and see who else was there; for all I know there could be someone there who needed prayer - I could then minister to them.
sunshinesoprano, if you feel it is right before God for you not to go, then that is totally fine. All I was attempting to do here was give my own perspective. I LOL'd at your comment about the "attack Manda festival". I appreciate you standing up for me, but please know that I'm fine about all of this. People are just being honest in their reactions, and I'd rather that than them not saying how they felt. I don't post here in order to be popular (just as well!  ) - I don't tickle ears with what people want to hear, I just speak as I find. With me what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, you can do the other thing! (one of my late father's favourite sayings, lol)
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/11/2008 6:05:13 PM
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BjoyMN
Posts: 29
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
Because lots of the world sees Christians as wishy washy and not really being any different than non-Christians. They see us as hypocrits because they think we don't really act out what we say we believe in. If we say we believe a homosexual marriage is wrong but then go to a ceremony that celebrates and up holds it we aren't standing true to our faith
Sunshinesoprano- How does your friend see you right now? Does he see you as wishy washy and a hyprocite with your faith? That you don't act out your faith? Or does he see you loving The Lord and serving Him by serving others? What kind of messages have have you tried to convey to your friend thrrough your singing? Do you have plans to continue witnessing to your friend by showing him God loves us and forgives us for our sins?
I feel for you Sunshinesoprano, it is a difficult decision and one that I have never had to make. I just pray that I could humble myself and not immediately decide on my own will to decline this type of invitation from a long-term friend. I want to do God's will and serve Him in all my relationships. I cannot see the benefit of staying away and giving my friend the message "nope, sorry, I am better than that, I am a Christian and I do not associate with sinners - period, end of sentence". I don't know your relationship with your friend, but I'm pretty sure this could be harmful. Have you not been witnessing God's love and forgivness to your friend? I believe The Lord wants us to love the sinner and hate the sin. How can you do this if the friendship ends? Your friend needs to know his sins can be forgiven. Who is going to tell him and when God convicts him of his sin (God's job, not ours), will you still have a relationship with your friend so that he can come to you? When he is down and out and needs someone to pray for/with him, will he remember "oh yes, Sunshinesoprano stood by me even when I was leading a sinful life", or will he remember .........? I totally agree with Manda and truly feel that The Lord would equip me with the strength and grace to go to the ceremony to represent His presence. Yes, perhaps it is a ceremony put together by our enemy...this may be all the more reason for you to be a becon of light and represent God's love there. Then again, if you are having stress and doubt that attending the ceremony is God's will for enhancing the relationship with your friend.........?
Sorry that most of this post is simply asking questions. The responses have been very interesting and quite a variety so I imagine it hasn't helped all that much to get our opinions. I am happy to hear you are praying about your difficult desicion and that you want to be in God's will. Trust the Lord Sunshinesoprano....He is happy to guide you.
_____________________________
Proverbs 3:5-6 (LIV) "Trust in The Lord with all your heart. Acknowledge Him with everything you do and He will guide your path."
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/11/2008 7:22:06 PM
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preserved
Posts: 778
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God's Words says...love the sinner but hate the sin...If you attend this wedding you are condoning and in agreement with the union...If you do not attend...you are not turning your back to this friend...It is making a stand as to what you believe in...This friend should have respected that and not sent the invitation in the first place since he knows how you feel..with that being said...this friend is forcing you to accept his union with his partner...
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