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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/11/2008 2:23:20 PM
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tafkam
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RC, you are a class act, sir... 
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Tafkam
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/11/2008 10:31:53 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Too often were so busy, lost in our own reality
But this is what selfishness is---and that pretty much defines pride, thinking more of yourself than you ought to think.
Yes and no. In a sense, I suppose, it is a form of pride. But, look at our culture today. Everyone wants to be heard, no one wants to listen. I'm in my 40's, my generation was known as the "me generation." We were taught that we deserved a beak today, that we could have it our way. Everything became about ME, my happiness, my reality.
I've come to the conslusions I have after years of working in a business designed to change people: corrections. Have you ever noticed that when you are trying to communicate your feelings to someone and you can see them formulating a response before you are finished? It seems that both collectively and individually we have lost the ability to really listen to others. To be able to put all our own "stuff" aside and truly begin to understand what another person is communicating.
Example: for five years of my career as a PO, I supervised a sex offender caseload. When I talk to people about this work, all tto often I can see the walls go up to block any effective communication. All the prejiduces come to the surface and questions ultimately come up asking me how I could have ever worked with that population. Truth of the matter is, I loved that aspect of my job. I got to know the men and women I worked with deeply. I got to see them begin the process of change, what we in the church call "repentance." I began to understand where these people were at mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Buit the majority of people in the community here the term sex offender and they have no desire to understand anything further. They have been conditioned to think that we have to keep them isolated from the rst of the community and to protect our kids. While this education/conditioning is not a bad thing, it all too often becomes an easy excuse for people to not have to look further and understand the bigger picture; to see things from God's perspective let alone outside their own perspective.
What does this have to do with the ability to say sorry? We have been conditioned by our culture to look out for number one. We consume more mass media (TV, radio, print, internet, etc.) than we do of God's Word. Therefore, our thinking is shaped by the information we receive. When the messages we are getting is that we are the center of our own universe, it's difficult to epathize, to understand where another person is at mentally, emotionally, spiritually. We're always looking for an angle where we are going to benefit when we have to try to understand things from outside our own perspective.
What you have described, zamdad, is exactly what selfishness is and does. We can't listen because we're consumed with ourselves. True our culture has fed this but only because it is what we are by nature, self loving people.
And it takes truly loving Jesus more than you love yourself to get beyond all your self loving ways. It is a life time process. Then we come to the knowing that we are loved and can live in His love, rather than our own, and that frees us to give ourselves to others.
It takes humility to say I'm sorry. That is why we rarely hear it. And that's why we so desperately need Jesus. He is the answer.
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/11/2008 10:38:54 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Ok, now on the other side .... do we tell others when they offend or sin against us or do we carry it inside and grumble about it? I'm always wondering how honest other believers are.
It depends on the person and the relationship I have with them. In general I choose to NOT take offense. If we love as Jesus loves, we believe the best of others. So if someone says something to me that could be taken more than one way, I believe the best and take it that way. Or if it's something I need to check out because it would profit me to know (for example if they see something in me that I need to be aware of), then I ask them to help me understand what they've said.
But I've had many people over the years do evil to me, mostly within the church, and some have never confessed their wrongdoing. I love these individuals. I have asked God to do good to them and I pray for them. I don't want them to confess so that I feel better. I want them to stand before God blameless. And I hope that those who know and love me pray the same for me.
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/11/2008 10:50:44 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Ok, now on the other side .... do we tell others when they offend or sin against us or do we carry it inside and grumble about it? I'm always wondering how honest other believers are.
It depends on the person and the relationship I have with them. In general I choose to NOT take offense. If we love as Jesus loves, we believe the best of others. So if someone says something to me that could be taken more than one way, I believe the best and take it that way. Or if it's something I need to check out because it would profit me to know (for example if they see something in me that I need to be aware of), then I ask them to help me understand what they've said.
But I've had many people over the years do evil to me, mostly within the church, and some have never confessed their wrongdoing. I love these individuals. I have asked God to do good to them and I pray for them. I don't want them to confess so that I feel better. I want them to stand before God blameless. And I hope that those who know and love me pray the same for me.
You make some good points, Liveloved. I can see a couple of things to gain from this discussion. One, it seems this is what Jesus was speaking of when He told us to love our enemies. All too often we seem to view the term enemy as a foriegn entity we are at war with. Yet, your enemy is that person you hold anger toward.
Second, when we're looking for someone else to apologize for something they did whether they know it or not, we are giving them too much responsibility for our emotions. We have no control over what they will or won't do. All we can do is examine our own hearts in relation to them. We have to take ownership of our own emotions. We can't pin our anger, unhappiness, etc., on the other person. I think this is why God asks us to give it to Him, let Him bear the burden.
I know this is a struggle as I am struggling with it too. I was hurt badly by some folks I trusted. I'm angry about things and have no true love in my heart for these individuals. Yet, I know this is in conflict with what God wants for me. And, that brings more inner turmoil than the anger toward the offending parties.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/12/2008 12:06:14 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Remember the '70s (I think) movie from which the quote was "Love means never having to say 'I'm sorry'"? Love Story with Ally McGraw and . . . can't remember the singer's name. I don't recall seeing the movie, but I wonder what the context of that statement was. However, not knowing the context, I would suggest that love is being able to say "I'm sorry," because no one is perfect, believer or not.
But many parents have never learned either how to say "I'm sorry" or how to admit that they make mistakes. Sad, sad, sad. Makes a lot of confused children.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/12/2008 9:16:35 AM
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Cloak
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Great insight Abiyah, thanks hon!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/12/2008 9:46:35 AM
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LBolt
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You know, when we get saved, pride should be a easy thing to detect and crush but oftentimes it creeps up on us without our knowing it. This is a gut check call for all of us to really ask the LORD to search our heart to see if there be any wicked way in us!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/12/2008 9:55:08 AM
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deliveredarling
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There is a couple of sides to this coin.
There is a difference between saying I'm sorry and apologizing.
Someone already stated that difference early on in the thread.
Sorry is over used and used most often in an insincere way.
When someone is offended, it's their problem.
People think that because they are offended, the offender, should apologize. If the "offender" doesn't feel like they have done anything to apologize for, why would they apologize? Wouldn't that be insincere.
Most often we forget to look at ourselves during an offensive situation, to see why we are offended. The offense, obviously is more about us than the offender.
I personally, don't find it hard to say I'm sorry or I apologize. If I have hurt someone or offended someone, it was not my intent, (most of the time). Since I didn't intend to harm anyone, I will gladly apologize just to ease the other person. If they continue to be offended, that's on them, I did my part and there's nothing left for me to do. (I'm speaking of words here, not actions).
If it was an action that I did and wronged someone, if I can make it right or doing something that will right that wrong, then I'm willing to do that too.
I haven't seen too many Christians who have a problem saying their sorry, saying their wrong is another thread
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/12/2008 9:57:26 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
I'm angry about things and have no true love in my heart for these individuals. Yet, I know this is in conflict with what God wants for me. And, that brings more inner turmoil than the anger toward the offending parties.
This is what I'm struggling with currently with my parents. I do love them, but I really don't want to be around them and this has me in a quandri(sp?). And they are believers, well, I'm not sure about my father, but this makes it even more difficult. I guess I hold them a little more accountable than a non believer. Maybe I'm wrong, but .... .
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Deb
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/13/2008 5:36:29 PM
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JamesL5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
Why is it hard for people in general and for Christians in particular to say I am sorry?
PRIDE & ARROGANCE. 
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/14/2008 11:54:36 PM
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Liveloved
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My first answer was pride. And that does keep people from saying "I'm sorry."
But I also think it is that we really don't believe or see ourselves as sinners. Oh, we call ourselves sinners and sing about it and read about it but when someone points out YOUR sin, how do you respond? Your response will show you what you believe.
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 8:30:44 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Ok, now on the other side .... do we tell others when they offend or sin against us or do we carry it inside and grumble about it? I'm always wondering how honest other believers are.
The Bible tells us to take it up with the brother who has sinned against us.
I believe it's for practical purposes. If we talk about it, a resolution will be made, whether it's an apology or it's shaking the dust from your feet.
To not discuss it causes resentment in your heart. Why would anyone want that?
The Biblical answers we get are to keep us emotionally healthy.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 8:34:34 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
But I also think it is that we really don't believe or see ourselves as sinners. Oh, we call ourselves sinners and sing about it and read about it but when someone points out YOUR sin, how do you respond? Your response will show you what you believe.
I don't think that has anything to do with it (seeing ourselves as sinners).
Do you, really, in an argument or whatever, stop and say or think, (wow, I'm not a sinner)?
We don't apologize when we don't think we have done anything wrong.
How soon we forget in any disturbance or chaos in our lives, that it takes two to tango. If there is chaos or upset, we have contributed to the situation, by words or deeds. We just don't want to face our part because it's easier to blame someone else for it.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 8:24:55 PM
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Cloak
Posts: 4577
Joined: 1/4/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
But I also think it is that we really don't believe or see ourselves as sinners. Oh, we call ourselves sinners and sing about it and read about it but when someone points out YOUR sin, how do you respond? Your response will show you what you believe.
I don't think that has anything to do with it (seeing ourselves as sinners).
Do you, really, in an argument or whatever, stop and say or think, (wow, I'm not a sinner)?
We don't apologize when we don't think we have done anything wrong.
How soon we forget in any disturbance or chaos in our lives, that it takes two to tango. If there is chaos or upset, we have contributed to the situation, by words or deeds. We just don't want to face our part because it's easier to blame someone else for it.
Again here is a problem of PRIDE and DENIAL as well!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 8:42:29 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Again here is a problem of PRIDE and DENIAL as well!
I am missing your meaning???
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 9:13:20 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Again here is a problem of PRIDE and DENIAL as well!
I am missing your meaning???
I'm missing it too. It feels like a cliche' combo.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/15/2008 11:39:31 PM
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Cloak
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From: Canada
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Well...to put it very simply in the above example posted above:
quote:
But I also think it is that we really don't believe or see ourselves as sinners. Oh, we call ourselves sinners and sing about it and read about it but when someone points out YOUR sin, how do you respond? Your response will show you what you believe.
Psychologically speaking this is referred to as DENIAL and Pride when someone fails to see themselves as sinner or fails to see themselves are either proud or in denial and self-deceiving.
Hope this is helpful!
_____________________________
Blessings!
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Why is HARD for Chrisitans to say...I am Sorry? - 8/16/2008 1:05:31 AM
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zamdad
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I understand what you're getting at, Cloak. It seems, however, that psychology has gotten us to make an excuse for everything. I don't deny that most people are in denial and that pride infects each and every one of us in some way. As someone who works looking out for the safety and welfare of others, I am convinced that most people are oblivious to what's going on around them.
Yes, it's pure and simple selfishness. But to ask most people about their selfishness, they're going to try and convince you they are anything but.
Deliveredarling is right about watching a person's response when confronted for some offense. How they respond says a lot. Most people don't respond well to having an accusatory finger pointed at them. If we're going to assist in bringing about change, we have to be willing to stick with them through some very difficult times. MOst people are not willing to walk that uncomfortable path and, at the same time, are likely to be just as upset that the other person is not seeing things the same way they do and does not seem willing to make the effort to change.
Several years ago I attended a training for probation officers entitled, "You can lead a horse to water, but nobody taught me how to lead the horse." Peopple, like horses, cannot be pushed or pulled to water. Horses like to have someone walking along side them. So do people. We were taught that bringing about true change in porbationers required a change of thinking. To change thinking means we have to change attitudes, values and beliefs. What this secular was presenting was what true repentance really is.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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Honestly speaking, a true Christian cannot grow while dismissing this great quality of...Humility!!!
but the moment I do, my spirit sings. 
