OT vs NT - love your enemy (Full Version)

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etnlyHis -> OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/9/2008 9:11:15 PM)

I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. I'm trying to reconcile the OT violence and wishes for vengance (as in Psalms when David asks that his enemies be struck down) versus the NT love even your enemies. Can someone point me in the right direction? [8|]



Liveloved -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/9/2008 9:56:16 PM)

Perhaps the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus speaks to various OT teachings and says, "But I say to you. . ." Start with Matthew 5:21 and read to the end of the chapter. I'm not sure what you're looking for but this might help.[:)] LL



BerianAardvark -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/10/2008 1:25:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etnlyHis

I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. I'm trying to reconcile the OT violence and wishes for vengance (as in Psalms when David asks that his enemies be struck down) versus the NT love even your enemies. Can someone point me in the right direction? [8|]


It is not unloving to ask God to handle those who are persecuting or abusing us. One of the best definitions I have ever heard for forgiveness is turning over to God my just complaints and grievances for Him to deal with rather than taking vengence myself.

You use David's imprecatory psalms as an example, before David became king, he twice held Saul's life in his hands, but did not take it, despite the fact that Saul was his sworn enemy, and was actively chasing him for the sole purpose of killing him at that very moment.

After he became king, David had even greater resources available to do harm to those who were meant ill towards him in word or deed, but David left it to God to handle them, as God always judges perfectly.


Loving someone does not mean shielding a person from the consequences of his actions.

Tim



DougHorton -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/11/2008 4:19:46 PM)

God's instruction to destroy the unbelievers were instructions to destroy GOD'S enemies, not our enemies.

For a person to break the law, the become enemies of the state. If that law came from God, they become enemies of God. (Actually, they already were, just as you and I were once at enmity with God, they were only confirming it.)

Therefore god was requiring the government to do justice by destroying them and removing them from society.

This is totally different from us trying to obtain justice without going through the proper processes. In fact, I may very well love my enemy and forgive the wrong they have done, but if they have committed criminal acts, the government is still required to administer justice.

Furthermore, to love God and to love our neighbor is, in fact, the purpose of all of the OT laws. The OT laws were all illustrations of how we were supposed to live out that love.



GroupW -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/11/2008 4:25:50 PM)

One of the things I think is important is to take into account the type of literature we're trying to explain. For instance there are statements in the bible of "what is" and statements about "what should be". David in the Psalms is crying out the God in a very human way. In that sense, the violence we read in the Psalms - asking God to strike down our enemies - is a statement about what is. David in his brokenness is feeling quite wrathful, and understandably so. That, however, is different from saying "what should be". The Psalms in that case are making a descriptive statement and not a moral statement.

I don't think you should read those Psalms and say that God in every case should strike down one's enemies.

It's important to divide that which is historical (i.e. descriptive) from that which is moral and a commandment (i.e. proscriptive).

That should help in some cases, but certainly not all.



steve7150 -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/11/2008 6:38:44 PM)

quote:

I'm trying to reconcile the OT violence and wishes for vengance (as in Psalms when David asks that his enemies be struck down) versus the NT love even your enemies. Can




Like you said "wishes for vengence" are not commands from God thus the bible is reporting what happened but "love your enemy" is a command from Jesus, so they can't be reconciled because they are in different categories.



diddl2007 -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/11/2008 8:16:52 PM)

The God of the Old Testament Is The Same God of the New Testament.
He nevers changes. But The New Testament is the achievement of the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.
And this verse of the Old Testament is the proof :

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

[image]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6450/messiahyeshualogotl1.jpg[/image]
God bless you all



DougHorton -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/12/2008 12:05:20 PM)

quote:

There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.


Amen! I think it was Origen who took the verses in Jeremiah about the new and old covenants and divided scripture into the Old Testament and New Testament. As helpful as that was for reference, it created an erroneous view that they are separate. In fact, the New Covenant was first stated as far back as Genesis 3:15.



e.barrett -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/12/2008 1:20:48 PM)

I think one of the more interesting thoughts I've heard on this topic is essentially this: God allowed violence in the Old Testament to show just how worthless it really was. All the times that violence is used, did it ever really solve any of Israel's problems? Of course not. In fact, most times it only made things worse.

I'm not 100% sold on that theory, but I find it intriguing. I certainly don't think God changed his mind on violence. But he does have a tendancy to "meet us where we are." And all too often we're violent and destructive.



drfuss -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/12/2008 8:51:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: diddl2007

The God of the Old Testament Is The Same God of the New Testament.
He nevers changes. But The New Testament is the achievement of the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.
And this verse of the Old Testament is the proof :

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

[image]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6450/messiahyeshualogotl1.jpg[/image]
God bless you all


drfuss: Leviticus 19:18 applys only to other Hebrews, i.e. children of your people. It does not say love your enemies as Jesus taught.



BerianAardvark -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/13/2008 12:38:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

quote:

ORIGINAL: diddl2007

The God of the Old Testament Is The Same God of the New Testament.
He nevers changes. But The New Testament is the achievement of the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.
And this verse of the Old Testament is the proof :

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

[image]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6450/messiahyeshualogotl1.jpg[/image]
God bless you all


drfuss: Leviticus 19:18 applys only to other Hebrews, i.e. children of your people. It does not say love your enemies as Jesus taught.


It came to be understood as that, but was not meant that way originally. There are always those who will take the narrow view to support their own prejudices

'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34)



drfuss -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/13/2008 9:47:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

quote:

ORIGINAL: diddl2007

The God of the Old Testament Is The Same God of the New Testament.
He nevers changes. But The New Testament is the achievement of the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.
And this verse of the Old Testament is the proof :

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

[image]http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6450/messiahyeshualogotl1.jpg[/image]
God bless you all


drfuss: Leviticus 19:18 applys only to other Hebrews, i.e. children of your people. It does not say love your enemies as Jesus taught.


It came to be understood as that, but was not meant that way originally. There are always those who will take the narrow view to support their own prejudices

'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34)



drfuss: The stranger among them was a Gentile who had converted to become an Isrealite. The converted Gentile was not an enemy and was to be loved as if he were an Isrealite. See scriptures below:

Ex.12:48,49 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num. 9:14 - 14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Num. 15:14-16 - 14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Lev. 19:34 - . 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.



Theophile2 -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/15/2008 8:16:21 PM)

drfuss - In your responses quoted below, it would appear that you believe that Jesus created new rules for the Christians. Do you not see that Jesus was constantly explaining to the Pharisees that they had wandered far from the intent of what God was trying to teach His people? That what Jesus said was not new, but very, very old?

Since you do not agree with Jesus' exposition of Le 19:18 in Mt 22:39 as the 2nd Greatest Commandment, Let's take an example from Paul:

De 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'

Rom 12:16-21 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. (17) Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. (18) If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. (19) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (20) To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." (21) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It gives the appearance that you believe neither Jesus nor Paul understood what they were commenting on from the OT.

diddl2007 is right ... God's standards and His commandments do not change and the NT is rife with commentary and exposition on what the OT intended to teach that the Pharisees lost sight of.

I'm curious, in your discussion of a "stranger" if you know the differences among a "ger" ... "ger tushav" .... "ger tsedek" ??

Blessings [sm=icon_smile.gif]
[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvark

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss

quote:

ORIGINAL: diddl2007

The God of the Old Testament Is The Same God of the New Testament.
He nevers changes. But The New Testament is the achievement of the Old Testament by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. There isn't 2 books but only one book : The Bible.
The New Testament Is the continuity of the Old Testament.
And this verse of the Old Testament is the proof :

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.


God bless you all


drfuss: Leviticus 19:18 applys only to other Hebrews, i.e. children of your people. It does not say love your enemies as Jesus taught.


It came to be understood as that, but was not meant that way originally. There are always those who will take the narrow view to support their own prejudices

'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34)



drfuss: The stranger among them was a Gentile who had converted to become an Isrealite. The converted Gentile was not an enemy and was to be loved as if he were an Isrealite. See scriptures below:

Ex.12:48,49 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num. 9:14 - 14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Num. 15:14-16 - 14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Lev. 19:34 - . 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.



Child4Jesus -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/16/2008 3:45:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etnlyHis
I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. I'm trying to reconcile the OT violence and wishes for vengeance (as in Psalms when David asks that his enemies be struck down) versus the NT love even your enemies. Can someone point me in the right direction? [8|]


Well think of it this way. In the OT it's not as if God didn't have reasons for telling the Israelites to fight such and such people. They were enemies of God. They sacrificed babies to so called gods, practiced homosexuality, bestiality, etc. As for David asking for revenge against his enemies, again they were enemies of God. It wasn't like David was like, "I don't like such and such. Take him down for me God."



drfuss -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/16/2008 7:38:17 PM)

Theophile writes:
quote:

drfuss - In your responses quoted below, it would appear that you believe that Jesus created new rules for the Christians. Do you not see that Jesus was constantly explaining to the Pharisees that they had wandered far from the intent of what God was trying to teach His people? That what Jesus said was not new, but very, very old?

Since you do not agree with Jesus' exposition of Le 19:18 in Mt 22:39 as the 2nd Greatest Commandment, Let's take an example from Paul:

De 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.'

Rom 12:16-21 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. (17) Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. (18) If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. (19) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (20) To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." (21) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It gives the appearance that you believe neither Jesus nor Paul understood what they were commenting on from the OT.

diddl2007 is right ... God's standards and His commandments do not change and the NT is rife with commentary and exposition on what the OT intended to teach that the Pharisees lost sight of.

I'm curious, in your discussion of a "stranger" if you know the differences among a "ger" ... "ger tushav" .... "ger tsedek" ??

Blessings


quote:


drfuss: Theophile, I have no idea how the above related to what I wrote. I was simply showing by scripture that when the law says love "the stranger among you", it is referring to a Gentile that has been converted to become an Isrealite. I did not address if Isrealites were to love or hate their enemies.



Theophile2 -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/17/2008 9:27:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss:

Theophile, I have no idea how the above related to what I wrote. I was simply showing by scripture that when the law says love "the stranger among you", it is referring to a Gentile that has been converted to become an Isrealite. I did not address if Isrealites were to love or hate their enemies.


drfuss - What I offer in this particular part of your post, is that you may have over-extended the meaning of "ger" (H1616) "stranger" in Lev 19:34 with the requirements to become a Ger-Tsedek (... of righteousness) in Numbers 9 and 15 ... in other words, with a little bit more research we can understand some of the ancient Israelite rules and regulations as they relate to just any Gentile among them, and then if that Gentile wishes to participate in their ceremonies, what is required to become a Ger-Tsedek.

For the rest of my comments, I would offer to go back and re-read the entirety of your post that I had replied to which will map rather easily to the rest of my comments.

Blessings ....

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]



drfuss -> RE: OT vs NT - love your enemy (8/17/2008 10:28:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Theophile2

quote:

ORIGINAL: drfuss:

Theophile, I have no idea how the above related to what I wrote. I was simply showing by scripture that when the law says love "the stranger among you", it is referring to a Gentile that has been converted to become an Isrealite. I did not address if Isrealites were to love or hate their enemies.


drfuss - What I offer in this particular part of your post, is that you may have over-extended the meaning of "ger" (H1616) "stranger" in Lev 19:34 with the requirements to become a Ger-Tsedek (... of righteousness) in Numbers 9 and 15 ... in other words, with a little bit more research we can understand some of the ancient Israelite rules and regulations as they relate to just any Gentile among them, and then if that Gentile wishes to participate in their ceremonies, what is required to become a Ger-Tsedek.

For the rest of my comments, I would offer to go back and re-read the entirety of your post that I had replied to which will map rather easily to the rest of my comments.

Blessings ....

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]


drfuss: Your interpretation of my comments is different than mine. Perhaps you assumed I was disagreeing with you since I pointed out by scriptures that "strangers among you" meant Gentiles who converted to Isreal, and were not enemies.



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