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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:26:04 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Or, if you think like the calvinists, who think God has to regenerate in order to get people to believe, what support do you have for that?
What's the alternative you are suggesting ?
Me thinks you have not been paying attention. What do you think I've been posting all this time?
quote:
Believing apart from God and without God ?
No, believing freely from the revelation of the gospel. And God is always involved in the revelation of the Gospel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:28:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
First I would have to interview him to determine if he thinks he is saved, how he thinks he was saved, and what he thinks his salvation means.
Sounds like some of what the RCC used to do. 
The RCC likes synergism and compatiblism.
Man is working with God regarding our salvation.
Man must cooperate along with God to become saved.
Sounds awful similar to what some here confess...
Why do you think the RCC pov is "awful similar" to mine? It isn't even close, as I've repeatedly noted, and you repeatedly miss.
quote:
As opposed to "Salvation is of The Lord"
As I've ALWAYS said.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:18:54 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, you haven't explained what "abandoning the gospel of grace" means.
It doesn't mean becoming an atheist, if that's what your looking for.
It means forgetting, denying or losing the appreciation for the reasons
why we are saved - because of seduction by false teaching, not some
kind of voluntary "self-excorcism" of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Yes, iow, Paul is describing a believer who knows better,
but is still charged with denying the faith.
And what is denying the faith? Look at the example of who denied
their faith - yes, they were still saved, but that doesn't prove
your point that they were unbelievers.
quote:
And please explain how an unbeliever can be said
to even have a "dedication to Christ
???
quote:
But my point is that Paul actually notes that some have already
turned to follow Satan. Is he speaking about unbeliever widows?
No, the context is clear that he is speaking of believing widows, per v.11.
No difference than a believer following a false teacher, Free.
The one escaping through the flames is still a believer.
And Solomon was not an atheist because he was an idolater.
An unbeliever cannot be an idolater, only a believer can.
quote:
You need to answer that.
No YOU need to answer why you equate idolatry with atheism.
quote:
I haven't equated wandering as unbelief, but your pov is that a true
believer will persevere, and Paul makes it very clear that believers can and
do wander away, be overcome, etc. You haven't dealt with that
Who says they wandered away permanently.
The implication of "wandering" is that the came back some time in the future.
Same with "gone astray" "not wholly devoted", "denying the faith" etc.
These are not permanent conditions. Why do you want to think this?
quote:
rw, if someone no longer believes the gospel, that faith IS destroyed.
Why do you believe this?
Is there such a thing as "dormant faith"?
Maybe their faith is just on vacation? Free, I don't know.
I just know this: something happens when a person is regenerated and
is it irreversible and permanent. A new creature is a new creature, period.
A sheep can't turn in to a goat.
He knows his sheep and his sheep know Him
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:43:56 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, you haven't explained what "abandoning the gospel of grace" means.
It doesn't mean becoming an atheist, if that's what your looking for.
It means forgetting, denying or losing the appreciation for the reasons
why we are saved - because of seduction by false teaching, not some
kind of voluntary "self-excorcism" of the Holy Spirit.
First, no one can perform a "self-exorcism".
Second, is your definition from your opinion, or from the Bible?
[quoe]quote:
Yes, iow, Paul is describing a believer who knows better,
but is still charged with denying the faith.
And what is denying the faith? Look at the example of who denied
their faith - yes, they were still saved, but that doesn't prove
your point that they were unbelievers.
I've never used that term (unbelievers) when describing former believers. When the Bible uses the term "unbeliever", it refers th those who have never believed. If that difference isn't maintained, there can be no meaningful discussion.
quote:
quote:
And please explain how an unbeliever can be said
to even have a "dedication to Christ
???
My point as well. Which is, that Paul was describing believers whose "sensual desires have overcome their dedication to Christ", something you seem to deny as possible.
quote:
quote:
But my point is that Paul actually notes that some have already
turned to follow Satan. Is he speaking about unbeliever widows?
No, the context is clear that he is speaking of believing widows, per v.11.
No difference than a believer following a false teacher, Free.
The point, rw, is that believers have "turned to follow Satan", something you seem to deny as possible.
quote:
The one escaping through the flames is still a believer.
Absolutely.
quote:
And Solomon was not an atheist because he was an idolater.
That wasn't my pov. The point was that Solomon, a believer, became an idolater, something you seem to deny as possible.
quote:
An unbeliever cannot be an idolater, only a believer can.
What? What about the Greeks on Mars Hill, where Paul examined ALL the idols that were worshiped by them? Were they believers? No.
quote:
You need to answer that.
No YOU need to answer why you equate idolatry with atheism.
I haven't. My point has only been the clearly bad behaviors of believers, something you have been denying as possible.
quote:
quote:
I haven't equated wandering as unbelief, but your pov is that a true believer will persevere, and Paul makes it very clear that believers can and do wander away, be overcome, etc. You haven't dealt with that
Who says they wandered away permanently.
Where does the Bible say that a believer cannot wander away permanently? That's my point.
quote:
The implication of "wandering" is that the came back some time in the future.
From where do you get that idea. Seems you are straining to see that.
quote:
Same with "gone astray" "not wholly devoted", "denying the faith" etc.
Again, show me from Scripture where there is any indication that a believer cannot end their life that way.
In fact, there is evidence of the fact that believers can and do end their lives poorly. King Saul, Solomon, Ananias and Saphira, Demas, etc.
quote:
These are not permanent conditions. Why do you want to think this?
The issue is why you think it isn't possible for the condition to be permanent? Where is there Biblical support for that?
quote:
quote:
rw, if someone no longer believes the gospel, that faith IS destroyed.
Why do you believe this?
Because it's true. If your belief (faith) in something gets "destroyed", doesn't that mean that you no longer believe in it?
quote:
Is there such a thing as "dormant faith"?
What would that mean? And does the Bible clearly speak of it? No.
quote:
Maybe their faith is just on vacation? Free, I don't know.
Got me there. I don't either. When I search the Scriptures, I don't find any mention of "dormant faith", or "faith on vacation". I DO find those who believed for a while.
When Jesus said some believed for a while, I have to accept that at face value, that they believed for a period of time, which is what "believed for a while" means.
quote:
I just know this: something happens when a person is regenerated and is it irreversible and permanent. A new creature is a new creature, period.
I've never argued against this. Of course I believe every believer is regenerated and becomes a new creature. But that doesn't guarantee that this new creature cannot rebel, since the Bible is full of believers who have rebelled.
quote:
A sheep can't turn in to a goat.
I've never argued this.
quote:
He knows his sheep and his sheep know Him
True. No argument. But are you aware of what the "shepard and sheep" analogy is about? Among animals, sheep are among the most helpless and stupid, and in need of constant care and guarding.
While the sheep do know the voice of the shepard, they constantly wander off and get into trouble. And don't take this comparison too far.
Human "sheep" have the ability to rebel against their Father. That's why Heb 12 was written.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 10:08:17 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
Certainly there is no one who never sins, but I think the verse is referring to sin as a lifestyle. John means that everyone who has been born of God does not life a lifestyle of sin. Of course, people born of God will still sin, but it will no longer be their way of life as it was prior to their salvation.
So, I believe the verse can be taken literally with that understanding and it does not refer to sinless perfection.
Thank you Greatdivide. Very well put.
WADR to GD, one has to ignore or reject 1 Tim to come to this conclusion.
I must be dense or ignorant. I've been racking my brain and I can't for the life of me figure out what WADR means. I know that when someone tells my I'll slap my forehead and say, "Well, duh!!!" 
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 11:17:58 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: online
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FreeGrace,
quote:
So, all talk of a rescue must include the fact that the one needing rescuing is VERY AWARE of the danger they are in.
3For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
quote:
Did you believe the gospel, or not?
3I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you.
quote:
To think that God would create man to do something without giving man the ability to do it is the height of irrationality.
3 For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.
quote:
No, people are able to understand the gospel and either believe or reject the message.
3But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.
Dont think too highly of yourself and your ability to have faith. We dont preach ourselves in that regard.
5For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.
quote:
What is obvious is your refusal (fear?) of facing the truth of what receiving a gift is all about.
3 For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think.
Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 6:38:12 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
My point as well. Which is, that Paul was describing believers whose "sensual desires have overcome their dedication to Christ", something you seem to deny as possible.
Why do you assume they are not longer believers?
This has happened to me!
Why do you assume this is permanent?
quote:
The point, rw, is that believers have "turned to follow Satan",
something you seem to deny as possible.
Why are we to assume this was permanent?
Why are we NOT to assume this is a warning of what can happen
when a believer strays from the gospel they received and
starts following a false teacher?
No question its a good prooftext for you theology, though.
quote:
The point was that Solomon, a believer, became an idolater,
something you seem to deny as possible.
The question is 1. Was is permanent, and 2. Did God discipline him for it?
I don't deny it . Idolatry doesn't have to be bowing down to Buddha, it could
be buying a new set of golf clubs instead of going to church. Anything
that God is not the focus of our adoration.
quote:
What? What about the Greeks on Mars Hill, where Paul examined ALL the
idols that were worshiped by them? Were they believers? No.
We are talking about whether a believer can become an atheist, not
whether a pagan worships other gods.
A pagan is not a believer, so how can they commit the sin of idolatry?
quote:
I haven't. My point has only been the clearly bad behaviors of believers,
something you have been denying as possible.
Free - come on. You say an atheist can be saved and you use
Solomon is an example.
If Solomon was an example of a saved atheist, what other evidence was
besides idolatry do you have.
Are you now going to back off Solomon?
Why in the world would you make a statement that I deny believers
can have bad behavior? You know I don't believe that!
The Bible is clear about continual, wilful sin, our relationship with sin has
changed, with freedom comes responsibility, grace is not an excuse to "sin away"
as well as "everything is permissible for me........but not beneficial"
Its all got to be balanced.
Buts its all based on the FACT that we are born again and it is permanent.
quote:
Where does the Bible say that a believer cannot wander away
permanently? That's my point.
You go ahead an roll with that, bro.
You have no example of an atheist believer.
You have no example of believer who died in unbelief.
Until you can come up with something other than "the Bible doesn't
say they cannot" I suggest you ponder what you're actually
proposing - that he Holy Spirit can leave a person, that God
will actually abandon a person he has already saved by allowing
them to become an unbeliever.
quote:
quote:
The implication of "wandering" is that the came back some time in the future.
From where do you get that idea. Seems you are straining to see that.
I think the context is wandering, as in straying a away from the truth,
not a permanent rejection of it.
quote:
Again, show me from Scripture where there is any indication that a
believer cannot end their life that way.
1.We are born again. That's all I need know.
2.Sanctification is part of our salvation.
quote:
In fact, there is evidence of the fact that believers can and do end their
lives poorly. King Saul, Solomon, Ananias and Saphira, Demas, etc.
I guess its time to ask WHY you want to believe a believer can be an atheist.
You are reaching and assuming with these examples. Where is no bibical
evidence they died in unbelief?
quote:
quote:
Is there such a thing as "dormant faith"?
What would that mean? And does the Bible clearly speak of it? No.
Does the Bible clearly speak of saved atheists? No.
quote:
I DO find those who believed for a while.
They weren't saved. John 1:23-24
Its time to quit.
The example of Solomon is faulty.
Your view of salvation is very man-centered.
You don't think our sanctification is inevitable.
You equate assurance with believing and nothing else.
We've been 'round this before.
Later.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 6:52:58 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Scripture regarding the choosing of Jacob and Esau:
(Rom 9:13 ESV) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
(Rom 9:14 ESV) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
(Rom 9:15 ESV) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Rom 9:16 ESV) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Later on, people created for destruction:
(Rom 9:17 ESV) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
(Rom 9:18 ESV) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Rom 9:19 ESV) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
(Rom 9:20 ESV) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(Rom 9:21 ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(Rom 9:22 ESV) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(Rom 9:23 ESV) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Rom 9:24 ESV) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Maybe FG needs to get a new Bible. His is apparently missing some passages.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 6:55:04 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
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On Solomon:
(1Ki 11:1 ESV) Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women,
(1Ki 11:2 ESV) from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, "You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods." Solomon clung to these in love.
(1Ki 11:3 ESV) He had 700 wives, princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart.
(1Ki 11:4 ESV) For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
(1Ki 11:5 ESV) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
(1Ki 11:6 ESV) So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done.
(1Ki 11:7 ESV) Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem.
(1Ki 11:8 ESV) And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
(Ecc 2:1 ESV) I said in my heart, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure; enjoy yourself." But behold, this also was vanity.
(Ecc 2:2 ESV) I said of laughter, "It is mad," and of pleasure, "What use is it?"
(Ecc 2:3 ESV) I searched with my heart how to cheer my body with wine--my heart still guiding me with wisdom--and how to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was good for the children of man to do under heaven during the few days of their life.
(Ecc 2:4 ESV) I made great works. I built houses and planted vineyards for myself.
(Ecc 2:5 ESV) I made myself gardens and parks, and planted in them all kinds of fruit trees.
(Ecc 2:6 ESV) I made myself pools from which to water the forest of growing trees.
(Ecc 2:7 ESV) I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in my house. I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any who had been before me in Jerusalem.
(Ecc 2:8 ESV) I also gathered for myself silver and gold and the treasure of kings and provinces. I got singers, both men and women, and many concubines, the delight of the children of man.
(Ecc 2:9 ESV) So I became great and surpassed all who were before me in Jerusalem. Also my wisdom remained with me.
(Ecc 2:10 ESV) And whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure, for my heart found pleasure in all my toil, and this was my reward for all my toil.
(Ecc 2:11 ESV) Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun.
It appears that one comes before the other... 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 6:57:58 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
FREEGRACE:
No, I am not saying that any believer can be "empty" of the Spirit.
Right!
So why do contradict yourself by saying an unbeliever can still possess the Spirit?
Surely you don't think we can be saved and not possess the Holy Spirit?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 7:07:55 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Where have I said that God places no femands or expectations on the believer?
Apparently God doesn't expect them to die a believer, Free.
quote:
I have repeatedly noted all the commands in the Bible that we ARE expected to obey!
Oh, come on FG.
Its all meaningless. In your world, one believes because they want to and
if they decides they don't want to, they're still in!
"Expected to obey"? Thats rich!
Do know darn well what you're saying is we obey them because we feel like
it; we fee; like being Spirit-filled.
quote:
There can be no spiritual growth with obedience.]/quote]
Why do you even care?
If someone is not experiencing their salvation, all you need ask them
is "did you ever once believe in your life..........................."
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 7:16:58 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
If there is no sanctification it is proof there was not justification either.
I think Romans 8 makes that clear, don't you?
Whom he justified, he...... its all God doing it.
I have always thought "christlikeness" was in THIS life because glorification
is mentioned separately; iow "christlikeness" = sanctification. Agree?
I have concluded holiness is a guarantee for the believer, then.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 7:35:56 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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HK
quote:
Able but unwilling shifts the work to man.
How so?
If you want to argue man is in control of his salvation, you might have point,
but are you saying ability to respond = man his own savior?
Even if you say God takes the initiative but man must respond,
there is a part to play by man, no?
Wasn't Jezebel "unwilling to repent"?
What does Eze 33:11 mean to you?
What is this - God pleading with his chosen people? How possible?
What will you do with Jer 18:7-10, Ex 32:14, Amos 7:1-6 and John 3:10, HK?
These passages seem to clearly present a different picture of man
not able or willing than what depravity proposes.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 7:38:31 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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HK
quote:
History proves that man is able to understand his sin (at least enough
to drive him by terror) and his condition before God without special revelation.
Isn't recognition of sin the first step in repentance?
Sproul says so.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 7:50:11 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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HK
quote:
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death
of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye
from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
1. This passage does not have to mean all of the wicked (though I think it does apply
universally in a sense).
What sense? Please unpack that for me.
quote:
2. The appeal to turn does not presuppose that they can or that it is even his will that they should. I don't see why not....God is pleading with them.
Which makes no sense if they were unable.
But makes perfect sense if they were unwilling.
quote:
One of the greatest confusions, I believe, is the idea that a conditional
statement presupposes some kind of necessary ability to respond.
I guess I'm confused, then. 
"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart ....you shall be saved"
Is this a conditional statement - there is a condition and a future action?
I think anytime there is a condition presented with a future action indicated,
it makes no sense at all if there is no ability and it has all been predetermined.
I'll tell you this, though, "if" the Bible says "IF" we need to have our ears on - Agree?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 8:02:44 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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HK
quote:
But don’t you see. Willingness to obey is the very thing the Old Testament
teaches against. Strike out 4000 years of gentile history in which the vast majority
of human beings “left to themselves” disobey the first, second, and third commandments
every minute of every day of their lives making and worshiping idols, other gods, and
blaspheming their Creator.
Whoa. How can the gentiles be under that Law?
They weren't "disobeying" anything. The commands were not for them.
There's an awful lot of verses that speak to unwillingness, HK.
Was Jezebel unwilling to repent or not? It don't get any clearer to me.
quote:
Does it not make sense for a farmer to determine, to cultivate,
to plant, to wait, and to reap?
I see what you're saying here, but.......your analogy falls apart immediately.
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in
his image, and to whom he has revealed himself, not a farmer scattering
seed and hoping for rain, and no disease, and no locusts, etc.
So yeah, he's happy (and sometimes surprised) when it produces!
If you've ever farmed, you know what I'm talking about.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 8:16:17 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in
his image, and to whom he has revealed himself,
The thought just occurred to me: If we have no free will how can we be created in God's image? Does God have no free will?
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 9:38:05 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
First I would have to interview him to determine if he thinks he is saved, how he thinks he was saved, and what he thinks his salvation means.
Sounds like some of what the RCC used to do.
The RCC likes synergism and compatiblism.
Man is working with God regarding our salvation.
Man must cooperate along with God to become saved.
Sounds awful similar to what some here confess...
Why do you think the RCC pov is "awful similar" to mine? It isn't even close, as I've repeatedly noted, and you repeatedly miss.
Speaking in general, not to anyone specific.
RWE and others have mentioned this also.
One might look at the Council of Trent !!!
“If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed.”
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Sto | | | |
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