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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:26:21 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
HK
quote:
History proves that man is able to understand his sin (at least enough
to drive him by terror) and his condition before God without special revelation.
Isn't recognition of sin the first step in repentance?
A sinner is in love with their sinfulness.
A sinner sees nothing wrong being a sinner.
A sinner has no reason to think otherwise.
How does the sinner move from being content-
to awareness of their vile, wicked, unholy state ?
Is the sinner self-aware in this respect ? Nope !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:26:48 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
I think Romans 8 makes that clear, don't you?
Whom he justified, he...... its all God doing it.
I have always thought "christlikeness" was in THIS life because glorification
is mentioned separately; iow "christlikeness" = sanctification. Agree?
I have concluded holiness is a guarantee for the believer, then.
I am with you 100% on this one brother.
blessing to you
TD
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:30:29 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I have repeatedly noted all the commands in the Bible that we ARE expected to obey!
Oh, come on FG.
Its all meaningless. In your world, one believes because they want to and
if they decides they don't want to, they're still in!
"Expected to obey"? Thats rich!
If man can obey all...why is Christ needed ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:35:31 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In fact, there is evidence of the fact that believers can and do end their
lives poorly. King Saul, Solomon, Ananias and Saphira, Demas, etc.
I guess its time to ask WHY you want to believe a believer can be an atheist.
You are reaching and assuming with these examples. Where is no bibical
evidence they died in unbelief?
Why ?...what do you think ?
Let's wait to see what the good brother says...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:48:49 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Did you see the key? People won't believe when they receive glory from one another. Does this verse say that all do that? No.
That’s right, and when people have no idea about redemption in Christ will have no ability to think about it or any ability to decide anything concerning it.
And when there is no revelation about it.
The issue is only about freedom to believe or reject that revelation.
Of course no one can believe without revelation. Paul made that quite clear in Rom 10:14,15.
And we know that God doesn't force revelation on anyone, as you think.
God doesn't force Himself...OK.
But, He doesn't share Himself with everyone.
Everyone does not experience God's revelation.
You would have us believe people meet God, and
are none the better for the holy encounter...WRONG !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:54:13 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Believing apart from God and without God ?
No, believing freely from the revelation of the gospel. And God is always involved in the revelation of the Gospel.
Of course, God makes the first move.
To some, He never makes a move.
That explains their reprobate state.
God has left them in their sin.
This violates no God attribute or characteristic.
This serves to magnify God's grace.
God distributes as He sees fit and as it pleases Him.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 10:56:26 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Mannamuncher,
FreeGrace just loves to preach about human ability!
Just as the Bible states that God created mankind to seek Him.
To think that God would create man to do something without giving man the ability to do it is the height of irrationality.
Then explain what man is able to do and doesn't do.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 1:06:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
Certainly there is no one who never sins, but I think the verse is referring to sin as a lifestyle. John means that everyone who has been born of God does not life a lifestyle of sin. Of course, people born of God will still sin, but it will no longer be their way of life as it was prior to their salvation.
So, I believe the verse can be taken literally with that understanding and it does not refer to sinless perfection.
Thank you Greatdivide. Very well put.
WADR to GD, one has to ignore or reject 1 Tim to come to this conclusion.
I must be dense or ignorant. I've been racking my brain and I can't for the life of me figure out what WADR means. I know that when someone tells my I'll slap my forehead and say, "Well, duh!!!" 
Prepare to lift arm, slap forehead. It means "with all due respect".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 1:09:03 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.[/color]
I agree KJ. God created everyone with the ability to believe or not.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 1:34:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
My point as well. Which is, that Paul was describing believers whose "sensual desires have overcome their dedication to Christ", something you seem to deny as possible.
Why do you assume they are not longer believers?
I don't. You are confusing my argument with Del's. My point is that true believers can lose their dedication to Christ, something you have argued against.
quote:
This has happened to me!
Why do you assume this is permanent?
I don't. Why do you assume it can't be?
quote:
quote:
The point, rw, is that believers have "turned to follow Satan", something you seem to deny as possible.
Why are we to assume this was permanent?
Why assume it can only be temporary? The point is, believers are doing this, something you have argued against.
quote:
Why are we NOT to assume this is a warning of what can happen
when a believer strays from the gospel they received and
starts following a false teacher?
I don't assume anything here. It is very clearly a warning of what can happen.
quote:
No question its a good prooftext for you theology, though.
Why argue against it, then?
quote:
quote:
The point was that Solomon, a believer, became an idolater,
something you seem to deny as possible.
The question is 1. Was is permanent, and 2. Did God discipline him for it?
According to 1 Kings 11, the summary of his life, there is no indication other than "when he was old, his heart was turned away from the Lord by his many wives". And yes, God did discipline him for it.
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I don't deny it . Idolatry doesn't have to be bowing down to Buddha, it could be buying a new set of golf clubs instead of going to church. Anything that God is not the focus of our adoration.
Correct.
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What? What about the Greeks on Mars Hill, where Paul examined ALL the idols that were worshiped by them? Were they believers? No.
We are talking about whether a believer can become an atheist, not
whether a pagan worships other gods.
That hasn't been my debate.
quote:
A pagan is not a believer, so how can they commit the sin of idolatry?
By worshiping idols.
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quote:
I haven't. My point has only been the clearly bad behaviors of believers, something you have been denying as possible.
Free - come on. You say an atheist can be saved and you use
Solomon is an example.
I have only said one who has actually formerly believed in Christ, and now no longer believes in God (atheist), is saved. Please keep your words and definitions clear.
quote:
If Solomon was an example of a saved atheist, what other evidence was besides idolatry do you have.
I never used him as an example of an atheist. Please direct your comments to Del.
quote:
Are you now going to back off Solomon?
My only point about Solomon was that he ended his life in idolatry, and his heart was turned away from the Lord. Period.
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Why in the world would you make a statement that I deny believers can have bad behavior? You know I don't believe that!
You have denied that the state can continue until death. Solomon demonstrates a believer can.
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The Bible is clear about continual, wilful sin, our relationship with sin has changed, with freedom comes responsibility, grace is not an excuse to "sin away" as well as "everything is permissible for me........but not beneficial" Its all got to be balanced.
Yes of course. I've never argued that grace is an excuse to "sin away" as you and the calvinistic Lordship salvationists keep thinking.
quote:
Buts its all based on the FACT that we are born again and it is permanent.
And I thoroughly agree with you here.
quote:
quote:
Where does the Bible say that a believer cannot wander away permanently? That's my point.
You go ahead an roll with that, bro. You have no example of an atheist believer. You have no example of believer who died in unbelief. Until you can come up with something other than "the Bible doesn't say they cannot" I suggest you ponder what you're actually proposing - that he Holy Spirit can leave a person, that God will actually abandon a person he has already saved by allowing them to become an unbeliever.
The summary of the life of Sol in 1 Kings 11 says "when he was old..." That is clear enough for me to know he ended poorly, although he was a believer.
quote:
quote:
quote:
The implication of "wandering" is that the came back some time in the future.
From where do you get that idea. Seems you are straining to see that.
I think the context is wandering, as in straying a away from the truth,
not a permanent rejection of it.
Please show me where in the context you don't see any possibility of it being permanent.
quote:
quote:
Again, show me from Scripture where there is any indication that a believer cannot end their life that way.
1.We are born again. That's all I need know.
2.Sanctification is part of our salvation.
Explain Sol's ending from 1 Kings 11.
quote:
quote:
In fact, there is evidence of the fact that believers can and do end their lives poorly. King Saul, Solomon, Ananias and Saphira, Demas, etc.
I guess its time to ask WHY you want to believe a believer can be an atheist.
Why I "want to believe"? What kind of question is that? I know what Jesus said. He said, "believe for a while". I know you will not take that straight up as spoken, but I do.
quote:
You are reaching and assuming with these examples. Where is no bibical evidence they died in unbelief?
See 1 Kings 11. How did Sol end?
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quote:
quote:
Is there such a thing as "dormant faith"?
What would that mean? And does the Bible clearly speak of it? No.
Does the Bible clearly speak of saved atheists? No.
Yes. Luke 8:12 compared with Luke 8:13. Now, where is that mention of "dormant faith" you speak of?
quote:
quote:
I DO find those who believed for a while.
They weren't saved. John 1:23-24
Pardon me, but John 1:23-24 doesn't define nor explain what Jesus clearly stated in Luke 8.
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Its time to quit.
Your call.
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The example of Solomon is faulty.
In what way? He was a believer. When he was old (end of life) his heart was turned away from the Lord and towards idols.
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Your view of salvation is very man-centered.
The ONLY thing about "man" in my pov of salvation is about who God saves. If that is "man-centered", I'm ok with that.
But I'm very much NOT OK with the idea that man assists God in his salvation, or that man works for his salvation. That is blasphemy.
quote:
You don't think our sanctification is inevitable.
In the future tense, absolutely. In the present tense, there is no reason to. See Sol.
quote:
You equate assurance with believing and nothing else.
Because the Bible does. 1 John 5:13.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 1:36:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Maybe FG needs to get a new Bible. His is apparently missing some passages.
I don't need one. I'm fully aware of these verses. I've given the Biblical concept of election in post # 4445
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 1:51:58 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in
his image, and to whom he has revealed himself,
The thought just occurred to me: If we have no free will how can we be created in God's image? Does God have no free will?
That is very profound...and true !!! 
God's "will" in no way resembles our will.
God's perfect will moves and does as He pleases, always holy, just, and righteous. Man---not so much !
One would have to ask... Why would it be important for man to have a freewill ?
May not be that important. It just seems to me that if we are truly created in God's image and God has a free will, then surely those created in His image would have free will also, even it's somewhat limited compared to God's. Unless, of course, one is prepared to say that God created man in His image . . . except for the free will part.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:06:38 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
I agree KJ. God created everyone with the ability to believe or not.
You do not agree with me and you know it.
You are playing your famous: "Mister Twister" act with me and I do not appreciate it.
You know exactly what I meant in my post.
One more time because of patience;
3But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.
5For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.
6For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah).
7However, we possess this precious treasure [the divine Light of the Gospel] in [frail, human] vessels of earth, that the grandeur and exceeding greatness of the power may be shown to be from God and not from ourselves.
FreeGrace......the truth is that unbelievers cannot see the gospel.
The truth is also that if anyone has become a believer they have the divine Light of the Gospel in their frail human bodies and this conversion has taken place all because of the great and glorious power of God and it is not from ourselves.
You are preaching totally opposite to what is Biblical when you keep preaching your human will and ability.
Again;
FreeGrace, by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn you not to estimate and think of yourself more highly than you ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate your ability with sober judgment, according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to you.
One more time in different English (No Greek is needed);
FreeGrace, for by the grace given to me, I tell you not to think of yourself more highly than you should think. Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each person.
You and Cornelius were doing nothing better than the faithless and those with faith.
It is by grace that people are saved.
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:39:56 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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HK
quote:
And if it is hard for the rich to come into the kingdom, who gives
them their wealth
HK, the object lesson of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich young ruler and the
rich man is that the love of money and prosperity are the biggest impediments
to inheriting eternal life. Why?
Because "God wants a man in his kingdom who will not want to be there if
he is wealthy, God will take away his wealth or see that he never has any,
if he does not work mightily in him and through his wealth to overcome his
vine tangled heart."?
I don't think so. The reason is the love of money creates a calloused heart.
Romans 2:5 & 8 tells us this. As well as .
I would love to study the three rich men parables with you.
quote:
In order for a man to be chosen before the foundation of the earth,
God has “committed himself”, as it were, to bringing that specific individual
into existence out of all the material in the universe that must be in place at
the right time for that individual to be exactly who God saw him or her to be
before he began creation.
HK, I would really like to see a reference this is mainstream thought in election theology.
If salvation is all of God, why does an elect, regenerated man need "convincing"?
You say "Paul reasoned with them because it was the particular means through
which God brought some to belief.", but what about simply hearing the message
itself has the power to save the elect, HK?
Why would he have to be "reasoned with"?
Why would God have to place an individual in the "right place at the right time"?
I think election is entirely dependent on two theological theses:
1. Total Depravity of man
2. Determinate will of God.
Sorry, but your explanation doesn't resonate with either one.
As for why the elect aren't saved the first time they hear the gospel, you replied
"Because God has prescribed means through which salvation takes place."
But that doesn't explain why a man needs convincing.
Here's the thing: You see I think a man needs convicting, not convincing. Because
in my theology until a man sees his sin and recognizes his condition before God,
he cannot and will not repent.
You say Salvation is not just a sporadic occurrence. It is a creation, a husbandry."
I've never heard it described that way, but don't totally disagree.
I just don't exclude man from the "husbandry".
quote:
Could it not be that what you call preservation toward repentance are not
elections in which the totality of the circumstances are hidden from you?
I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say yes - I have thought of that - if God has
perserved me for a certain day, did he choose me or did he simply foresee it all?
I appreciate the time you have taken to respond.
I'll respond to the Total Depravity post in a little while.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:45:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in
his image, and to whom he has revealed himself,
The thought just occurred to me: If we have no free will how can we be created in God's image? Does God have no free will?
And like man God would be a created a being...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:48:40 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in
his image, and to whom he has revealed himself,
The thought just occurred to me: If we have no free will how can we be created in God's image? Does God have no free will?
That is very profound...and true !!!
God's "will" in no way resembles our will.
God's perfect will moves and does as He pleases, always holy, just, and righteous. Man---not so much !
One would have to ask... Why would it be important for man to have a freewill ?
May not be that important. It just seems to me that if we are truly created in God's image and God has a free will, then surely those created in His image would have free will also, even it's somewhat limited compared to God's. Unless, of course, one is prepared to say that God created man in His image . . . except for the free will part.
Are we prepared to say man isn't all knowing, perfect, and without a beginning and end?
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 11/24/2008 1:07:04 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:49:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
On Solomon:
It appears that one comes before the other... 
The key is to understand the phrase "when he was old" in the chapter that summarizes his life, in 1 Kings 11.
Unless you have proof that he wrote Eccles after he grew old and turned from the Lord, you have no point.
The Bible characterizes his life as ending in idol worship.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:51:10 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
FREEGRACE:
I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin.
According to you he will allow a so-called believer to become an atheist.
Right. You can't have it both way, Free.
What did Kelman call it?
Oh, yeah..............bunk.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:53:23 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
FREEGRACE:
No, I am not saying that any believer can be "empty" of the Spirit.
Right!
So why do contradict yourself by saying an unbeliever can still possess the Spirit?
I'm not. You keep making the same error as the calvinists. When I speak of believers who no longer believe in God/the gospel, they are called former believers, which is something the calvinists just won't acknowledge.
For me, the word "unbeliever" designates someone who has nevere believed. My debate is about believers who no longer believe.
So, please, use correct terminology, or there's no sense in any discussion.
quote:
Surely you don't think we can be saved and not possess the Holy Spirit?
Once saved, always saved.
Once faith, always saved.
Once regenerated, always regenerated.
Once forgiven, always forgiven (in regards to salvation)
Once justified, always justified.
Hope that is clear enough.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 3:00:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Where have I said that God places no femands or expectations on the believer?
Apparently God doesn't expect them to die a believer, Free.
Let's be accurate, rw. God doesn't "expect" anything, as humans do. He is omniscient, and therefore already knows exactly whose faith will fail and whose won't. The Bible is clear enough; His commands to grow up spiritually can be seen as an "expectation" for His children, therefore, He expects them to grow up.
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quote:
I have repeatedly noted all the commands in the Bible that we ARE expected to obey!
Oh, come on FG.
Its all meaningless. In your world, one believes because they want to and if they decides they don't want to, they're still in!
Why should changing my mind change God's plan?
btw, when you believe something, is it because you "want to", or because you "don't want to"?
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"Expected to obey"? Thats rich!
Is that not a Biblical concept, given all the commands?
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Do know darn well what you're saying is we obey them because we feel like it; we fee; like being Spirit-filled.
Do you obey when you don't "feel like it"? No. That's when you are sinning. Of course you are free to sin whenever you want to. Even the calvinists cannot deny that they are free to sin whenever they "feel like it".
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There can be no spiritual growth with obedience.]/quote]
Why do you even care?
Seems a rather snotty comment, rw. Come on, now. I care because it is in God's Word. Should I ask you if that means anything to you?
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If someone is not experiencing their salvation, all you need ask them is "did you ever once believe in your life........................
You have to start somewhere. And that is a good place to start.
From there, you need to ask them why they aren't growing or experiencing their salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 3:05:18 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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FREEGRACE:
My proof is 1 Kings 11, which is a summary of his life.
Can you show me anywhere in that passage where he ended well? No, you can't.
He didn't "end well" means he was an atheist?
Denying the faith = atheist?
Not being wholly devoted = atheist?
Not following the Lord competely = atheist?
Departing, wandering, straying from the faith = atheist?
Idolatry = atheist?
My wife led me astray........so I'm an atheist?
I wish you were so strict with your definition of a believer, Free.
God decides who is an unbeliever when we die, not you.
You have no authority or special enlightenment do claim Solomon was an atheist.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 3:07:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
We are talking about God and a creature he has created with a will and in his image, and to whom he has revealed himself,
The thought just occurred to me: If we have no free will how can we be created in God's image? Does God have no free will?
Good question.
God is completely free to do whatever He wants, other than to contradict His perfect and holy nature.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 3:11:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Are you asking if God loves souls in hell ?
No, I'm asking what you thought TF's opinion that God doesn"t love everyone, while you are claiming that God loves "more or less", depending on one's status in life (you know, elect, or reprobate).
I cannot speak for the man...
But I am confident he would use Scripture !
I'm not asking you to "speak for the man". I already told you what he has argued, and you seem to be arguing against that.
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Jacob I loved...Esau I hated
Are you uncomfortable with God's actions ?
Why would I be uncomfortable with anything God does? That is really silly. If I should have a stroke tomorrow, so what? I would accept that as part of God's will for me. I would also keep 1 Thess 5:18 in mind.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 3:14:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
HK
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History proves that man is able to understand his sin (at least enough to drive him by terror) and his condition before God without special revelation.
Isn't recognition of sin the first step in repentance?
A sinner is in love with their sinfulness.
A sinner sees nothing wrong being a sinner.
A sinner has no reason to think otherwise.
Not at all. Just look at the first sinner. Was he in love with his sin? No, he was embarrassed enough to hid from the Lord.
Did Adam "see no reason to think otherwise"? He certainly was aware of what he had done, and he hid from the Lord.
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How does the sinner move from being content- to awareness of their vile, wicked, unholy state ?
Conviction, which Adam showed.
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