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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 9:28:36 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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KJB ,
quote:
They stumble because they disobey the message......which is what they were destined for.
Oh.....but you on the other hand (yes, in contrast to those destined to disobey) are a chosen people.
I don't believe the verse teaches that they were destined to disobey . It teaches that they were destined to stumble "because" ; because sets forth the reason they stumble ; its because they disobey the word ; and because they disobey the word , they are destined to stumle .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 10:10:18 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
Or, more accurately, puppetry. I really don't know why that ruffles some of their feathers, since their pov is that God causes everything. Isn't that what the puppet master does?
Feathers?
Oh so now we are "bird puppets"?
Mighty sparrows! LOL
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given...........I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.............I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
KJB
Hey, KJB, that verse must be wrong somehow since we're told by the free willer's they decide whether they will believe or not - and are therefore saved. Probably should read something like "I am not praying for the world, but for all those who will choose to believe in Me."....'ya think?
Neither pray I for these alone , but for them also which shall believe on me through their word ;
Believe on Him how ? By election ? By being chosen ? By regeneration ? By faith infused ? No...........but through their word . It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 10:11:27 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Umcbee,
quote:
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
The only difference in meaning is that one believe has action involved whereas faith gives name to that from which the action proceeds. Other than that, “faith” and “believe” are as intimately connected in definition as “run” and “runner”. Now, forget about “mention of faith” and try reading Theos’s passages again, why don’tcha? See if you see “ability” in them. Here, I’ll help you with the first one:
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
See any self-surgery going on here? Who’s removing the stone and putting in the flesh? The patient or the Physician? See how easy it is? Now, you try the next one....
Its easier to understand in context :
36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel , Thus saith the Lord God ; I do not this for your sakes , O house of Israel , but for mime holy name's sake , which ye have profaned among the heathen , whither ye went .
23 And I wii sanctify my great name , which was profaned among the heathen , which ye have profaned in the mist of them ; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord , saith the Lord God , when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes .
24 For I will take you from among the heathen , and gather you out of all countries , and will bring you into your own land .
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you , and ye shall be clean : from all your filthiness , and from all your idols , will I cleanse you .
Then comes your bedrock verse , # 26 .
Do you note in v. 22 O house of Israel ?
Eze 36:16 - 38 is a prophecy concerning the future regathering of Israel from all the lands where the Lord had scattered them (v. 19) : it is still awaiting fulfillment . It does not apply to Gentile's .
See how easy it is ? Now......you should try and apply context to his other prooftexts .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 10:13:26 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
This is the only verse in all those you posted that even contained the word faith . It states where one's faith should rest ; it in no way says where faith comes from .
Neither do any of the other verses you quoted tell us where the origin of our faith comes from .
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
I didn't overlook your post the first time : there was simply nothing in it concerning the origin of one's faith ; so there was really nothing to respond too .
Believe is the verb form of faith, but we have no verb form of faith in the English language. If we did, it would be "faithing" as my pastor so puts it.
"Believe" > Strongs #4100 , means to have faith , credit , to entrust
"Faith" > Strongs #4102 , means persuasion , credence , conviction
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:06:26 AM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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{{{Sound of the Gauntlet falling to the floor.}}}
FG, rwe
Up to now, I’ve been pecking at you with the pea-shooter. I’ve decided now to bring out the heavy artillery.
quote:
OK, let's be real clear here. I also AGREE that man is totally unable to save himself. Did you hear me? Man cannot save himself. Got that?
You say it, but you don’t believe it. Otherwise we wouldn’t be arguing, but you know as well as I do that we’re arguing about something. Your view is that we believe unto salvation with nothing preceding belief. You haven’t taken into account what you are saying about “belief”. If the belief is yours alone, coming from your own human self and activated by your own human effort, you add to the salvation by activating that salvation with your faith. That means you add a work to salvation in order to apply salvation. Paul says, “No.” By no works of the law can a man be justified. If you believe that man is totally unable to save himself, you have to believe that man can therefore contribute nothing, not even his own believing toward salvation.
quote:
I believe it is quite implicit in John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-27, and 20:31, as well as Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31.
Are those enough for you?
No. You believe the teaching is “implicit” in these verses, which subjects them to your interpretation. You have not shown a verse that is explicit showing that faith or believing avail a man of salvation. If you and I were arguing on the same side against someone who believes in baptismal regeneration we could use these verses to prove to them that faith is the instrument of justification. I accept these verses for that purpose, not to prove that faith saves without intermediate means. If I see any scripture that teaches intermediate means, faith or believing is not the immediate impetus for salvation. I do see an intermediate means, Romans 1:16; 1 Cor. 4:15; Ephes. 1:13; Ephes. 3:6; Col. 1:5.
The Gospel
Be careful, boys, how you argue this. I’ve only just started.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:09:55 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
This is the only verse in all those you posted that even contained the word faith . It states where one's faith should rest ; it in no way says where faith comes from .
Neither do any of the other verses you quoted tell us where the origin of our faith comes from .
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
I didn't overlook your post the first time : there was simply nothing in it concerning the origin of one's faith ; so there was really nothing to respond too .
Believe is the verb form of faith, but we have no verb form of faith in the English language. If we did, it would be "faithing" as my pastor so puts it.
"Believe" > Strongs #4100 , means to have faith , credit , to entrust
"Faith" > Strongs #4102 , means persuasion , credence , conviction
It only proves my point. Thanks.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:21:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
On another note, I have something to add to the Christians being punished for sin from Hebrews 12 that you apparently believe.
A Christian is often not even disciplined for sin they commit. Oftentimes, it's just to grow them in holiness.
What do you mean by "its just to grow them". What is "it"?
"it" = discipline
I agree. Also, I equate divine discipline as a form of punishment. And we have many examples in Scripture where divine discipline is severe enough to be considered a punishment.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:25:34 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The debate is whether God causes people to believe the gospel. I see no proof.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Mat 11:26 ESV) yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(Mat 11:27 ESV) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Joh 6:44 ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:45 ESV) It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
(Joh 6:64 ESV) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(Joh 6:65 ESV) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Act 5:31 ESV) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
(Act 13:48 ESV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Act 16:14 ESV) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Php 1:29 ESV) For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
(2Ti 2:25 ESV) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(2Ti 2:26 ESV) and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(1Co 2:4 ESV) and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(Php 1:6 ESV) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Eph 1:3 ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
(Eph 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(Mat 11:25 ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
OK, TC. Which verses say that God causes anyone to believe? I still see no proof.
All these verses point to the fact that God is the one who draws people to Himself. Nothing about anyone believing before they are drawn. Our faith comes from God, not ourselves.
I agree God draws. But we disagree on all the uses and meanings of "draw". And it doesn't appear that either one of us will convince the other of that.
The debate has not been about believing before being drawn. I've always noted that the divine relevation from Romans 1 is a draw from God. But since you will only accept the idea of 'dragging', we will just have to agree to disagree.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:27:30 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The power is not in the human will.......the power is in God.
Since there has been NO promotion of "power in the human will", why do you bother to make such comments?
quote:
No one can say Jesus is my Lord.......except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.
No one argues against this on this thread.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:33:59 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Until you can bring into the discussion some real proof that shows why Cornelius believed your position has no merit.
I think this discussion has gone on long enough. Since you have no proof of God causing anyone to believe, we'll just have to drop it.
quote:
You say you “believe the cause is described.” Quote me the verses that describe the cause.
We see Cornelius reverencing God and praying to Him, without any comment about God doing it.
quote:
If you tell me that he was an unbeliever that "feared God," "gave alms," and "prayed," then you still have not given any proof of what did or did not cause Cornelius to do these things.
The point is that he did all these things, and the Bible didn't make any comments to lead anyone to believe anything other than Cornelius did those things on his own.
For me, that's powerful. For you, that is a "theory".
quote:
quote:
quote:
You are the one who has brought up Cornelius as a showcase of natural man's ability. Take responsibility for your own error. I am simply showing that you have no biblical ground for your claims . . . .
What is clear is what Cornelius did. You want to dismiss what he did "on the grounds that the cause was not clear".
I don’t dismiss what he did, I dismiss what you claim the cause is for what he did.
And since you absolutely no proof or even support for God being the cause of what Cornelius did, we'll just have to drop it.
quote:
quote:
But there are so many more details; such as Cornelius, as an unregenerate Gentile Centurion, being God fearing (reverencing) and praying continually. Then, all the details about the angel that God sent telling him very specific things such as his prayers coming up before God as a memorial.
But, you just want to ignore all of that and claim he is nothing more than an example of the Gentiles being assimilated into the church.
I don’t want to ignore any of it, I am blessed that I have the scriptures and can read this account. I just don’t add the cause as you do.
If God was the cause, why doesn't Scripture make that clear?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 11:38:43 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
KJB -
I am struck and certainly respect your doctrine that gives 100% of the credit and 100% of the work in salvation to God even though the very fact that man must respond is an indication of a choice, but lets not debate that now. I too, credit God with my salvation, not myself. I believe he brought me to repentance, I was not a puppet nor was I forced (manipulated, coerced, beat down, hemmed in, forced to surrender - maybe  ).
My question is this: (Let me start by reiterating that I believe our salvation is a process, not a one-time event. Our justification may be instantaneous, but our justification never occurred if there is no work of God in sanctification and holiness. I think most reformed would agree with this.)
With the 100/0 - are you speaking of our rebirth/God's work at the core,
or the totality of our salvation, start to finish?
If its 100% God, 0% man all the way through, I think you have a huge problem because sanctification is most certainly not 100% God, 0% man.
If its not, then what do you think is God's plan of sanctification?
After all, some will succeed with great growth and some will falter with little growth, agree?
I don't think we are able to "choose" righteousness after we are saved
any more then before - but we possess something we didn't before - the Holy Spirit, which is our motivation, our guide, our "heavenly drill sargeant" if you will.
We are all saved the same way, receive the same Holy Spirit, but walk
in dramatically different ways and have dramatically different levels of
commitment to our faith - Why, if God is in total control?
rw, you recently told HK that you agree with about 20% of my pov. Yet, there is nothing here that I disagree with. So, what is that 80% you have a problem with?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 12:15:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG, rwe
Up to now, I’ve been pecking at you with the pea-shooter. I’ve decided now to bring out the heavy artillery.
Well, well.
quote:
quote:
OK, let's be real clear here. I also AGREE that man is totally unable to save himself. Did you hear me? Man cannot save himself. Got that?
You say it, but you don’t believe it.
You're not the first calvinist who makes this reckless charge. I believe exactly what I post. Whether you believe that or not is not my problem. But if you want to have any kind of discussion with me, you'd better understand that what I post I most assuredly believe.
quote:
Your view is that we believe unto salvation with nothing preceding belief.
Not at all. Obviously there is a lot that precedes belief. So, your comment here is as well quite erroneous. What precedes belief?
1. Realization that God exists. Romans 1
2. Desire to know more about Him. Acts 17:27
3. God gives more divine revelation. Acts 10 (hint: the angel in the case of Cornelius)
4. The entire process listed in Rom 10:14-15.
a. preacher called and sent
b. preacher preaching
c. audience hearing the gospel
d. audience believing what they hear
5. Along the way, John 16:8,9 says that the Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Note that the verse says nothing about "the elect".
quote:
You haven’t taken into account what you are saying about “belief”. If the belief is yours alone, coming from your own human self and activated by your own human effort, you add to the salvation by activating that salvation with your faith.
Negatory, my friend. Paul eliminates your argument in Romans 4:4,5, where he clearly differentiates work from faith. Work creates a debt owed, or wage. Faith does not. So, your comment about "adding to salvation "activitation with your faith"" is simply erroneous.
God activates salvation, period. The fact that He does so on the basis of one's believing the gospel in no way means that the "faith" triggers or activates the salvation. That simply is one of the pre-conceived assumptions that plague the calvinists. I request that you get over it.
quote:
That means you add a work to salvation in order to apply salvation.
Once again, negatory. See above. Believing is NOT a work, even if you claim it is. Even if you insist it is. The Bible says otherwise.
quote:
Paul says, “No.” By no works of the law can a man be justified. If you believe that man is totally unable to save himself, you have to believe that man can therefore contribute nothing, not even his own believing toward salvation.
OK, where do I start here? In the first place, your statement about "no works of the law" clearly doesn't include believing, so the statement is irrelevant.
Second, I agree that man cannot save himself. I've repeated this repeatedly. Redundant enough for you? 
Third, that man believes from within his own heart (Rom 10:10) contributes [nothing to his salvation.
You guys phrase this as if you think the FW pov is that salvation isn't complete until man believes, which then helps God in our salvation.
That may be the pov of true arminians, I don't know, and really don't care, for I aren't one of them. I am telling you exactly how I believe.
quote:
quote:
quote:
I believe it is quite implicit in John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-27, and 20:31, as well as Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31.
Are those enough for you?
No. You believe the teaching is “implicit” in these verses, which subjects them to your interpretation. You have not shown a verse that is explicit showing that faith or believing avail a man of salvation.
That's rich. How do you interp Acts 16:31? For me, it is clear: believe...and you will be saved. Apparently that isn't clear enough for you?
quote:
If you and I were arguing on the same side against someone who believes in baptismal regeneration we could use these verses to prove to them that faith is the instrument of justification.
Well, then, we wouldn't really be on the same side. I don't believe that faith is the "instrument" of anything. God does ALL of the forgiving, justifying, saving. He does so when one believes in His Son, but I don't see that as the "instrument". I believe that God holds ALL the instruments that result in forgiving, justifying, and saving. All we do is believe, which is what God desires us to do, per 1 Tim 2:4.
quote:
I accept these verses for that purpose, not to prove that faith saves without intermediate means. If I see any scripture that teaches intermediate means, faith or believing is not the immediate impetus for salvation.
You'll need to explain yourself about what "intermediate means" means.
And, please, provide an example or two. Thanks.
quote:
I do see an intermediate means, Romans 1:16; 1 Cor. 4:15; Ephes. 1:13; Ephes. 3:6; Col. 1:5.
Wow! One fast answer here.
Re: Rom 1:16, I see that the gospel is God's power for salvation to everyone who believes. Hm. That is my pov.
Re: 1 Cor 4:15, I see Paul saying he tutored the Corinthians in the gospel. No problem.
Re: Eph 1:13, one of my prooftexts (  ), I see a significant order:
1. after listening to the gospel
2. having believed (the gospel)
3. you were sealed with the Holy Spirit
iow, we have to listen to know what it is that God is claiming. Then we have to believe it. Then God seals us with the Holy Spirit.
Re: Eph 3:6, I think I see what you mean by intermediate means. Such as what I listed for Eph 1:13. I have never argued that one's faith is what saves.
I believe that man does the believing, and God does the saving.
quote:
Be careful, boys, how you argue this. I’ve only just started.
Finally. Let's get started.
I'd like to compliment you here, HK. This is the best post you've done to date. Glad to have you join the debate.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 12:36:36 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
rw, you recently told HK that you agree with about 20% of my pov. Yet, there is nothing here that I disagree with. So, what is that 80% you have a problem with?
Views of sanctification/holiness/perseverance.
We've already been there, Free.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 12:46:28 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
I am the made alive "Ephesians 2 man".
That is why I just cant credit my own will to any of this miracle.
Maybe some of you can credit your own wills.......I just cant do it.
All the post is realy nice, dont requote it for the sake of space, but may i assure you nobody here credits his own will for the miracle of salvation.
Or disagrees with the rest of your post :)
Seem like we just disagree re: how people came to God, by force or by want. I have serious issues with Arminianism and Calvinism, but do appreciate your great maturity in understanding that a person that shows fruit of Holy Spirit that is, maybe, on the wrong side in this theology is more pleasing to God then the one who has the right theology but lacks the fruit.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 12:56:24 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
:) rwe, dear friend,
-why is becoming buddhist or pagan that worships many gods is better then
becoming an atheist? you and some guys claimed that but i so far fail to get
it why that means one is still saved, but atheist is lost? I thought buddhism
was not the way to God
Is our faith a fleeting thing, Dear? Like the love we had for a puppy when we were 7?
I understand why the Calvies agree with me, but for the wrong reason.
See, they don't think our faith is ours, but God-given - not completely untrue, BTW-
so who do we think we are to make ourself an "unbeliever"? I agree!
We can no more become an unbeliever than we can unborn ourselves or
give the Holy Spirit an eviction notice (send him on a sabbatical, maybe, but
He's still checking in on the homefront now and again )
This is the difference - there is a faith it takes to save and then there is the faith
that empowers the believer and sustains us and keeps us.
Is not faith a spiritual gift, also for the believer? I think we all possess some degree
or another of all the Spirit and all the spiritual gifts, and faith is one of these.
The only way a person could "become" an atheist after supposedly believing,
is if they never believed to begin with. The faith is takes to believe becomes
part of our security as a believer.
If a person claimed to "once believe" they simply never believed, Del - if our
justification we have is permanent, then why isn't anything else about our
salvation?
Its not LS debate, its whether sanctification is inevitable and holiness is a guarantee
(both of which I have discovered are true).
For me its simple: "I know my sheep and my sheep know me." Present tense,
yes, with aclear implicaton of ongoing action.
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- lack of biblical support for the idea that engaging in certain
sins definitely means one is lost.
See, thats not the same thing as one claiming to no longer believe, dear.
Why do you mix them up, because you think unbelief is a sin, too?
We wander, go astray, fall away but not completly or we never knew him.
Well enough opinion - I'll get you some Scripture.
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But if you would reply to the post from FG it would be good, for starters.
I have it bookmarked and will formulate a reply soon.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:00:26 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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Odelya,
quote:
rw, why do you keep "no longer believing" off your list,
but include "denying their faith"? How are those different? I don't see it.
How can one deny their faith if the no longer believe?
They have nothing do deny, no? Explain that to me.
I deny my father ever existed, but somehow I am born? I don't get it!
Peter denied his faith.
I deny my faith every time I sin or do not witness.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:07:16 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Until you can bring into the discussion some real proof that shows why Cornelius believed your position has no merit.
. . . . Since you have no proof of God causing anyone to believe, we'll just have to drop it.
I have never said that God causes someone to believe. I have argued that God enables a person to see that which he could never see without God's light being given. And that man left to himself will never come to seek Him or see Him in truth.
But back to the discussion of your Rom1 Theory . . . You still have not brought anything that is scripturally objective into the discusion that would prove your position (I can understand why you would want to drop it). You have depended on human logic (such as if God creates man to seek Him then there must be some that seek Him) and conclusions based upon that logic (Cornelius proves the principle), but have nothing that firmly states what you state is biblically true.
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You say you “believe the cause is described.” Quote me the verses that describe the cause.
We see Cornelius reverencing God and praying to Him, without any comment about God doing it.
If that is the basis of your belief, you don't have any basis. There is no comment because that is not the point of the passage.
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If you tell me that he was an unbeliever that "feared God," "gave alms," and "prayed," then you still have not given any proof of what did or did not cause Cornelius to do these things.
The point is that he did all these things, and the Bible didn't make any comments to lead anyone to believe anything other than Cornelius did those things on his own.
That's because there is a completely different theme in Acts 10. Acts 10 does not address at all what you are trying to base your doctrine upon.
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You are the one who has brought up Cornelius as a showcase of natural man's ability. Take responsibility for your own error. I am simply showing that you have no biblical ground for your claims . . . .
What is clear is what Cornelius did. You want to dismiss what he did "on the grounds that the cause was not clear".
I don’t dismiss what he did, I dismiss what you claim the cause is for what he did.
And since you absolutely no proof or even support for God being the cause of what Cornelius did, we'll just have to drop it.
It is not I that is showcasing Cornelius in the issue of the ability of man to seek God based on the revelation of God found in creation only. You have brought Cornelius into the debate as an example of just that. I have refuted your position by showing that there is no basis in Rom 1, Act 17 or Act 10.
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But there are so many more details; such as Cornelius, as an unregenerate Gentile Centurion, being God fearing (reverencing) and praying continually. Then, all the details about the angel that God sent telling him very specific things such as his prayers coming up before God as a memorial.
But, you just want to ignore all of that and claim he is nothing more than an example of the Gentiles being assimilated into the church.
I don’t want to ignore any of it, I am blessed that I have the scriptures and can read this account. I just don’t add the cause as you do.
If God was the cause, why doesn't Scripture make that clear?
If the point of Acts 10 was one way or the other it would be clear. But since it is not, you nor I can use Acts 10 to make any substantial argument regarding how anyone comes to believe.
Blessings,
SH
< Message edited by SureHope -- 12/3/2008 1:33:18 PM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:28:27 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The debate has not been about believing before being drawn. I've always noted that the divine relevation from Romans 1 is a draw from God. But since you will only accept the idea of 'dragging', we will just have to agree to disagree.
Some try to convey the doctrine of Irresistible Grace with terms such as "dragging." When I met my wife I saw her as irresistibly beautiful in heart, mind and form. I was drawn to her. I was not dragged or forced, but came to her willingly.
How much more when I was given light to see the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. I was not forced to come to Him; I willingly gave up my old life to be with Him who is irresistibly desirable. The choice was unconscious and secondary. What was primary and foundational was sight of Him who is glorious – how could I choose anything else?
I was drawn by sight of my God who is glorious in mercy, forbearance, lovingkindness, forgiveness, etc. For years I understood the gospel intellectually, but it was not until I was given light to see the glory of Christ Jesus in the gospel that I believed; and that belief was and is still willing.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:30:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Odelya,
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rw, why do you keep "no longer believing" off your list,
but include "denying their faith"? How are those different? I don't see it.
How can one deny their faith if the no longer believe?
Do some children believe in Santa Claus? When they "no longer believe in him, that is a denial of what they once believed. To me, the phrases say the same thing. To "deny the faith" is to claim you no longer believe it.
btw, what do you make of the word "apostate"? The dictionary says it is someone who longer believes what they once believed.
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They have nothing do deny, no? Explain that to me.
Just did. But, I'll do it again. If you believe something, and later believe it to be false (you changed your mind), you no longer believe it. As well, you will deny that it (what you used to believe) is true.
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I deny my father ever existed, but somehow I am born? I don't get it!
Poor example. There are religions, (I think the Jewish faith, and Muslimism) that will actually deny the existence of a family if they convert to Christianity. At least, that's what I've heard. I know Del will be able to set me straight.
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Peter denied his faith.
Was he believing at that moment that Jesus was the Messiah? No. That's why he did what he did. This is a good example.
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I deny my faith every time I sin or do not witness.
I would say, in a sense, you do. We all do, in that sense.
But, one who has believed in Christ, and then got disillusioned, disappointed, or whatever, and no longer believes in God is a former believer who no longer believes. They will clearly deny the faith they used to believe.
If you accept "deny the faith" as something that can be done, you should be able to accept "former believer".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:38:38 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I agree. Also, I equate divine discipline as a form of punishment. And we have many examples in Scripture where divine discipline is severe enough to be considered a punishment.
I will have to disagree that it's a form of punishment. Punishment for what? Sins? Negatory. You cannot have Hebrews 12 without Hebrews 10 which says that all our sins were atoned for on the cross. When the Father looks at us, He sees Jesus, the mediator. We are justified, declared innocent.
Otherwise, if we are continued to be punished for sins, then believing in Christ is meaningless. The Cross becomes pointless. Nothing happened there. No sins atoned for. You missed the point of the cross if we, as believers, are punished for sins. This is what many pentecostals/charismatics believe. Have a backache? What sin did you commit? Sneeze? What sin did you commit? You see where I'm going with that? You might want to rethink your whole punishment for sin deal. It's simply not Biblical whatsoever.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 1:40:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Until you can bring into the discussion some real proof that shows why Cornelius believed your position has no merit.
. . . . Since you have no proof of God causing anyone to believe, we'll just have to drop it.
I have never said that God causes someone to believe.
Apparently you don't read the posts of your reformed brethren. They all claim that God causes people to believe.
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I have argued that God enables a person to see that which he could never see without God's light being given. And that man left to himself will never come to seek Him or see Him in truth.
I agree with all of this. For me, man hasn't been "left to himself". God made sure of that when he revealed His existence to everyone.
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But back to the discussion of your Rom1 Theory . . . You still have not brought anything that is scripturally objective into the discusion that would prove your position (I can understand why you would want to drop it).
Not hardly. We should drop it because you have no convincing support for your pov, and you don't like mine.
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You have depended on human logic (such as if God creates man to seek Him then there must be some that seek Him) and conclusions based upon that logic (Cornelius proves the principle), but have nothing that firmly states what you state is biblically true.
Human logic? I have used the common sense that God gave to mankind to see how Scripture is connected.
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You are the one who has brought up Cornelius as a showcase of natural man's ability. Take responsibility for your own error. I am simply showing that you have no biblical ground for your claims . . . .
What is clear is what Cornelius did. You want to dismiss what he did "on the grounds that the cause was not clear".
I don’t dismiss what he did, I dismiss what you claim the cause is for what he did.
And since you absolutely no proof or even support for God being the cause of what Cornelius did, we'll just have to drop it.
It is not I that is showcasing Cornelius in the issue of the ability of man to seek God based on the revelation of God found in creation only. You have brought Cornelius into the debate as an example of just that. I have refuted your position by showing that there is no basis in Rom 1, Act 17 or Act 10.
No, you have refused it, not refuted it. They don't mean the same thing and they aren't spelled the same, either.
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But there are so many more details; such as Cornelius, as an unregenerate Gentile Centurion, being God fearing (reverencing) and praying continually. Then, all the details about the angel that God sent telling him very specific things such as his prayers coming up before God as a memorial.
But, you just want to ignore all of that and claim he is nothing more than an example of the Gentiles being assimilated into the church.
I don’t want to ignore any of it, I am blessed that I have the scriptures and can read this account. I just don’t add the cause as you do. | | |
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