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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:11:47 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
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1 Thessalonians...........
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:..........................
We give thanks to God always for all of you......................................
constantly bearing in mind your work of faith.............................
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power.................................
that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.....................................
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ....................................
We were saved by grace and God gives us faith in Him when He saved us.
I thank my God every time I remember you.
In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:11:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
FreeGrace,
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Once again, the calvinists just provide a verse or several, all without any explanation, as if the verse alone will support what they claim.
Would you please explain why scripture alone--God's word--isn't sufficient for you?
It's quite sufficient for me, actually. The reason I ask for "explanation" is in order to understand the calvinist mind and how they "process" various verses. iow, I want to see how a calvinist understands a verse.
For example, I think it is very clear that Jesus made a clear promise to the non-elect in John 8:24, which clearly contradicts calvinistic theology. And how do the calvinists understand the verse? They deny any promise, and only "see" that Jesus is making a true statement. They do not see any problem with Jesus evangelizing the non-elect, which He clearly did.
Amazing!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:16:02 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2858
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
FreeGrace,
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Once again, the calvinists just provide a verse or several, all without any explanation, as if the verse alone will support what they claim.
Would you please explain why scripture alone--God's word--isn't sufficient for you?
It's quite sufficient for me, actually. The reason I ask for "explanation" is in order to understand the calvinist mind and how they "process" various verses. iow, I want to see how a calvinist understands a verse.
For example, I think it is very clear that Jesus made a clear promise to the non-elect in John 8:24, which clearly contradicts calvinistic theology. And how do the calvinists understand the verse? They deny any promise, and only "see" that Jesus is making a true statement. They do not see any problem with Jesus evangelizing the non-elect, which He clearly did.
Amazing!
Promise to the non-elect ?...HUH ?
Why do you keep making up stuff ?
The ONLY promise to them is wrath.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:17:01 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
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shemaromans,
Here is another true statement Jesus made in John 8;
21Once more Jesus said to them,
"I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin.
Where I go, you cannot come."
They will look for Him and will die in their sin.
Where He goes they cannot come.
Quite a staunch promise.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:22:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
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quote:
We already know that Adam displayed exactly what Jesus Christ said in John 3.
You think Adam hated God when he sinned?
Please tell me where it is stated that Adam lost all ability?
There are other curses listed, but no mention of man being totally unable.
quote:
Free-willers say Adam knew about his guilt or sin but so what?
Big whoop de do!
If this doctrine was so important and so bedrock, why is there NO MENTION
of it in this crucial, pivotal, seminal event that led to men being rendered totally unable?
For this doctrine to be true, God has hidden this curse from man and has
not told us the whole truth, or even part of the truth.
What an awful thing to think! The very basis upon which this whole system
of theology is built must be inferred!
The only definitive statement concerning it occurs in a document
devised by man. You are on shaky ground if you believe it.
IT SHOULD BE A BIG DEAL TO YOU.
For sure, death came to all men by one man and life comes to all men by one man.
Is it physical death? Yes. Is it spiritual death? I'm not so sure.
The reason I'm not so sure is Adam clearly retained the ability to not only recognize
his sin, but to feel remorseful and fearful of its consequences.
He could not be scared if he was spiritually dead. He would be neutral and
not feel guilty or scared at all. In fact, if he was now spiritually dead, I
would think he would be flaunting his sin and laughing in the face of God.
Adam was not created morally perfect as many want to believe.
Innocent - yes, but morally perfect - no.
If Adam was created morally perfect he would be unable to sin.
Its not a little "fairy tale" KJB - I suggest you get to work on a response
rather than stabbing at the air with our accusations we are making it up.
Total Depravity is on trial and has been on trial for 500 years.
I want to know the truth. If Calvinism is true, I want to believe it.
I have spent the last 2 years studying the doctrines of grace.
I cannot believe determinism at all.
I do not believe men are 100% totally depraved because the still retain
the ability to make moral choices and recognize sin.
Limited atonement and unconditional election fall if depravity falls.
Perseverance is the mark of a true believer.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:27:22 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
Status: offline
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quote:
Why do you think this verse speaks of everyone? Seems the calvinists want "men" to refer to everyone, BUT when the Bible does speak of everyone, they want to limit it to less than everyone. Why is that? Excellent point, FG.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:29:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
FreeGrace,
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Once again, the calvinists just provide a verse or several, all without any explanation, as if the verse alone will support what they claim.
Would you please explain why scripture alone--God's word--isn't sufficient for you?
It's quite sufficient for me, actually. The reason I ask for "explanation" is in order to understand the calvinist mind and how they "process" various verses. iow, I want to see how a calvinist understands a verse.
For example, I think it is very clear that Jesus made a clear promise to the non-elect in John 8:24, which clearly contradicts calvinistic theology. And how do the calvinists understand the verse? They deny any promise, and only "see" that Jesus is making a true statement. They do not see any problem with Jesus evangelizing the non-elect, which He clearly did.
Amazing!
Promise to the non-elect ?...HUH ?
Read it and weep, Manna.
quote:
Why do you keep making up stuff ? The ONLY promise to them is wrath.
What am I making up? I imagine that you can read well enough for yourself.
When Jesus told the non-elect they would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him, that would be a lie if He wouldn't die for them.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:30:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
The ONLY promise to them is wrath.
Can you show me that what He said was ONLY a promise for wrath?
Why do you ignore the meaning of "unless"?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:32:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
Status: offline
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quote:
Here you are in here as a Christian boasting about God and how God produces in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him, and you are told you should be cutting the strings? The process of sanctification is a synergism, KJB. You should know that.
We are always able to please him, but our sin nature ebbs and flows depending
on how much we are spirit-filled.
Its sad you see our relationship with God as mere puppets.
I'm sure the idea of God responding to man is abhorrent to you, but it is a fact.
See Jer 18:7-10 and 26:3.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:32:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
shemaromans,
Here is another true statement Jesus made in John 8;
21Once more Jesus said to them,
"I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin.
Where I go, you cannot come."
They will look for Him and will die in their sin.
Where He goes they cannot come.
Quite a staunch promise.
As usual, the calvinist likes to quote only part of the passage, and ignore the part that contradicts their theology.
WHY will they die in their sins? They WON'T believe in Him. But that contradicts calvinism.
Again, calvinism just cannot cope with this verse. It contradicts their theology so they ignore it. Or deny it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:45:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
Status: offline
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quote:
SUREHOPE:
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God,
but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness.
WOW!!! From a Calvinist, no less!!
Your not one of the ones' who want to knight sir KJB, are you?
I wonder if a reprimand is coming from the great one? 
Please tell me how depraved, spiritually dead, god-hating,
spiritually blind, enemies of God can have an awareness of God?
If you believe depraved man has an awareness of God, how can you disagree
with the message of Romans 1:18-21?
I agree man has the moral ability to recognize good and evil
because this is what the Genesis account tells us - man is now
able to know good AND evil.
As for "choosing to suppress" righteousness - are you telling me you
think man has the ability to turn away from God and reject him?
If so, I have no disagreement with you.
But I suggest you are at odds with your own theology of depravity.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:56:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
Please retract your "unwelcome spiritual counsel" or I will report it and have it removed...
Thanks in advance...
Here's the original post, sir:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
: SovIsHe
He's on something....
As in he if full of it? I hope this is a typo.
More like smoking crack...
Your point? What does my comment about whomever have to do with your "unwelcome spiritual counsel" ? Please retract it...
Your OK with insulting the character of a scholarly, respected man,
(one of your own, no less!) who you don't even know and apparently
haven't even read simply because his idea about depravity doesn't line up with yours?
Know matter who it is you disagree with, making derogatory statements
that insult a person's character have no place on a Christian forum.
Unless you think smoking crack is not a character fault.
You need to read the TOS...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:56:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
Status: offline
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KJB:
If you are a puppet on a string, how can you please God?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:19:07 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
If you are a puppet on a string, how can you please God?
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
All you need to do is read the clear text and then you should be asking yourself how can I not! 
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:23:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
KJB:
If you are a puppet on a string, how can you please God?
By not trying to jerk the strings.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:24:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7678
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
If you are a puppet on a string, how can you please God?
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
All you need to do is read the clear text and then you should be asking yourself how can I not!
But, you still sin, do you not? Does that please God, KJ?
Or, do you think that since (in light of your theology that God causes sin) that He is pleased when He causes you to sin?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:41:08 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
quote:
You think Adam hated God when he sinned?
Please tell me where it is stated that Adam lost all ability?
There are other curses listed, but no mention of man being totally unable.
Nice attempt to divert. 
20Everyone (which does not exclude Adam and Cornelius) who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Adam sinned and sinning is evil.
quote:
If this doctrine was so important and so bedrock, why is there NO MENTION
of it in this crucial, pivotal, seminal event that led to men being rendered totally unable?
For this doctrine to be true, God has hidden this curse from man and has
not told us the whole truth, or even part of the truth.
"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here.
I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
No one can come (inability) unless....
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'
Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
No need to be enabled?
64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
This is speaking about an about face. Turning to Jesus Christ in faith.
quote:
You are on shaky ground if you believe it.
I believe in Jesus Christ....so exactly why am I on such ground?
quote:
Its not a little "fairy tale" KJB - I suggest you get to work on a response rather than stabbing at the air with our accusations we are making it up.
No one can come unless the Father has enabled him....
It is very simple rwe2156.
It is NOT all that come to Jesus will be given to Jesus by the Father.
It is; all that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
quote:
Total Depravity is on trial and has been on trial for 500 years.
Jesus Christ has given a VERDICT and it matters not one iota if total depravity has been on trial for 500 years. 
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Preach free-will if thats what turns you on. LOL
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:49:23 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
quote:
WOW!!! From a Calvinist, no less!!
Your not one of the ones' who want to knight sir KJB, are you?
I wonder if a reprimand is coming from the great one?
Cute. 
quote:
SUREHOPE:
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God, but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness.
For your information rwe2156, that is not something I disagree with at all.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:43:51 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2300
Status: offline
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quote:
SUREHOPE:
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God, but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness.
For your information rwe2156, that is not something I disagree with at all.
KJB
Great!
So do you believe man has a certain knowledge of God,
or only certain men have a knowledge of God?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:15:49 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1598
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
quote:
So do you believe man has a certain knowledge of God, or only certain men have a knowledge of God?
Its funny you ask since I just commented on that when I agreed with this;
quote:
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God, but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness.
General revelation found in nature is not enough to get man into some free-willing ability to please God mode. It is enough so that none are with any excuse.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 12:25:07 AM
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Kath
Posts: 17229
Joined: 2/28/2005
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Lets stop the discussion about TOS and get back to the subject please.
Thank you.
Sincerely
Kath
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_____________________________
"It's going to be bad around here when the cows come home to roost."
Dilbert's TRUE QUOTES FROM INDUHVIDUALS
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:10:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3869
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?" AND, "If God knows you will choose NOT to obey, are you able to obey?"
Of course not. But not because God predetermined it, because in God's foreknowledge
it has already happened! So the question is moot. You miss the point. The fact is that if God knows what you will choose, you are not free to choose otherwise because then God would be wrong.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:15:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3869
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Are you sure you mean John 8:24?....because there's nothing in that verse to suggest Christ "promised" salvation to the non-elect.
Jesus was very clear in what He said. It was the truth, and He phrased it in a "if...then" proposition. It is a conditional statement. IF this...THEN that. Jesus' method of teaching the Gospel is not limited to this verse. He teaches in this precise manner in many many places. Nor, was it a "promise" to the non-elect. It was an explanation of the Gospel.
quote:
quote:
He simply speaks the truth to all "believe on me and be saved". And this is precisely how He tells His apostles to preach the Word - to all. Correct. iow, there isn't anyone who can't believe and be saved. But, calvinism denies that in their theology. You want to use your version of "if...then" here; and, it doesn't work. God has elected and the names were written in the Book of Life "from before the foundation of the world" You misconstrue God's method of getting the Gospel to the elect with some "promise" being made to the non-elect.
quote:
quote:
I should apologize in advance for not answering your question...since you'll only accuse me of not answering anyway.
Don't bother with your apologies. Okay.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:22:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3869
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
He's been asked frequently, and hasn't answered yet. I don't think he has one. You do realize that is a lie, don't you? You've responded, yes. That much is true. But you didn't address the issue, so why do you call that an answer? Since I did address the issue, that's simply another lie.
quote:
quote:
You've even responded to the answers I've given. How come you actually don't care when you lie? Of course I've responded to your responses. My responses have explained how your responses have not addressed the issue in my question, such as Jesus promising salvation to the non-elect. You simply dismiss His statement as a promise, which simply is denial of FACT. So, you HAVEN'T answered the question, because you have DENIED the FACT that it WAS a PROMISE. Here again, you have completely proved what I and others have been saying. If you don't like an answer or disagree with it, you untruthfully say it has not been answered.
quote:
quote:
It only seems that way because when they do get asked questions they simply ignore them. Kind of like they ignore the answers to their questions...uh, except to say they never get any.
I've asked a number of free willers a question they won't answer. The last time just a few posts ago to FG.
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?" Yes, I am able. That is most amazing. In four short words, you declare you are able to choose against God's knowledge. You further reveal that God has no "certain" knowledge and is a most fallible God. The god you speak of here, FG, cannot be found in Scripture.
quote:
But God knows in my freedom of choice that I won't. This sentence is superfluous, in addition to being senseless, since you've already declared "Yes, I am able".
The God of Scripture is omniscient, He knows all things perfectly and certainly. It is not possible with the God of Scripture for you to do what He knows you will not do. If that possibility existed, that god could be wrong.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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