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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:46:30 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
quote:
The controlling thought is that they were going to die in their sins.
No, the controlling thought is how to avoid dying in their sins, since Jesus gave them the solution to the avoidance. Do you disagree
I have made my point clearly. Of course I disagree.
Jesus plainly said,
I told you that you would die in your sins,
That is the controlling thought. The term "for" shows us this. The term "unless" is not the major point here. When I use the term "because" it is not replacing "unless," but is used instead of "for".
in your opinion, the "unless" or actually in the Greek, "if" cannot be a major point, or even a point, because it contradicts your theology, which you must deny in order to defend your theology. Your disagreement fails to defend your theology. Jesus' words have already done that.
quote:
for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.
Jesus is saying,
You will die in your sins - because of the fact [FOR] - unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.
Here is the very glaring problem with your misunderstanding.
You have twisted the words of Jesus into nonsense. He DID NOT SAY:
you will die in your sins - because of the fact - unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins. That sentence doesn't even make any sense.
What you have tried to do is simply disregard the significance of the phrase:
"unless you believe that I am He". Ean in the Greek introduces a CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which you are denying.
Jesus gave them conditions upon which they either WILL die in their sins, or they will NOT die in their sins. Both are conditioned on whether they believe or not.
Your denial changes nothing. Calvinism is dismantled by Jesus' own words.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:47:59 PM
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KingJamesBond
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SureHope,
FreeGrace has made it clear;
quote:
Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect. Any grade schooler would understand that from John 8:24. Why don't you?
You replied;
quote:
I guess opinions must run rampant in grade school also. I think most that have advanced beyond the grade school level would agree that Jesus is not promising salvation to the non-elect at all. Rather, He is explaining why they will die in their sins.
Are you telling me you dont see that "Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect" in this text;
24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." NIV Translation
Maybe you will see it in this translation;
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." NASB Translation
Wait....maybe in this one;
24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.” NLT Translation
Maybe you need to get out your reading glasses;
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. KJV Translation
Ok thats it!
I am now going to give you the grade school translation;
24That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be--if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins. Amplified Translation
I cant believe you dont see Jesus promising salvation to the non-elect in all of those texts. 
How about this one;
24I promise all of you non-elect that you will be saved and will not die in your sins. The Words of Jesus in red and words of FreeGrace in green Translation
Oh....I finally see it!
I had to put on my rose (I mean green) colored glasses. LOL
How does he come up with this stuff?
KJB
< Message edited by KingJamesBond -- 9/7/2008 2:59:34 PM >
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:48:26 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
Also, you noted the key problem here with my questions. You note "not agreeing with the premise of the question". iow, calvinists can't even accept my question as legitimate. That would explain why they haven't answered it. But the questions have been legitimate, especially in light of calvinism. But, you merely dismiss the question as frivolous, which it isn't.
I didn't say that it was frivolous or that I merely dismiss it (which I have not); I have answered your question concerning John 8:24 in a few posts. What I said is that you have a certain premise that you hold, upon which your question is based. Since I do not hold the premise that you do, the question cannot be answered in the way you desire. That is why I approach your question in terms of exegesis.
Not exegesis, eisegesis. It is very clear that Jesus evangelized the non-elect, and you just cannot accept that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:51:29 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,quote:
btw, these conditions are actually promises that Jesus was making. He was promising that they WILL die in their sins IF they don't believe in Him.
This is where we disagree. It is very clear to me that Jesus' central statement is that they will die in their sin, as He had already stated,
But you ignore the "unless" conditional statement. The whole statement is clear. They WILL die in their sins IF they do NOT believe in Him.
You are ignoring the conditional statement. Whether they die in their sins or not is based on the conditions which Jesus made clear.
quote:
So he said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come." (Joh 8:21 ESV empasis added)
The second half of verse 24 is the reason they will die in their sin.
Right, "unless they believe". That is a condition, which you simply dismiss as significant.
What is the calvinistic reason they will die in their sins? Because God didn't choose them. But Jesus didn't say that. In fact, He gave them conditions, something calvinism cannot do.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:56:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
SureHope,
How about this one;
24I promise all of you non-elect that you will be saved and will not die in your sins. The Words of Jesus in red and words of FreeGrace in green Translation
Oh....I finally see it!
I had to put on my rose (I mean green) colored glasses.
Typical tactic of the calvinist to distort the posts of others. Were there any non-elect in that crowd, KJ? I believe v.43 indicates that there were. Also, I never claimed Jesus was promising salvation without conditions, as you have dishonestly portrayed here.
Here is how I would have actually said it: "I promise all of you non-elect that you will be saved IF you believe in Me." Because that is exactly what the text says. Salvation is conditioned on believing. Jesus said so.
Now, that is exactly what Jesus was promising. I think you'd better take off whatever glasses you are using. The text is clear enough.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 3:05:34 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Typical tactic of the calvinist to distort the posts of others. Were there any non-elect in that crowd, KJ? I believe v.43 indicates that there were. Also, I never claimed Jesus was promising salvation without conditions, as you have dishonestly portrayed here.
Here is a condition;
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
The condition of man has been declared with a verdict from God. That is his condition.
Those that come into the Light are those He calls out from their condition of darkness.
And all those appointed to eternal life believe.......otherwise they die in their sins.
It is quite clear.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 4:34:21 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 405
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Typical tactic of the calvinist to distort the posts of others. Were there any non-elect in that crowd, KJ? I believe v.43 indicates that there were.
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." (John 8:43-44)
Far from suggesting that the non-elect have the capacity to believe, what the above verses indicate is that not all people are God's children. Some belong to the Devil. Satan is their father; they are his children. They cannot possibly hear the words of life and believe. (c.f., 2 Cor 4:4). To the unbelieving (i.e., the non-elect), Jesus says:
I did tell you [that I am the Christ], but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." (John 10:25-26)
In stark contrast, God's children are able to hear his word. He continues:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;" (John 10:27)
Rather than seeing all human beings as "potentially" elect, Christ drew a clear dichotomy. Some were his; some were not. The former not only could but assuredly would hear his voice and follow him. The latter could neither hear nor follow.
~Aphobos
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 4:48:00 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Welcome back Aphobos!
Refreshing post.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 4:52:09 PM
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SureHope
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FG,
quote:
Not exegesis, eisegesis. It is very clear that Jesus evangelized the non-elect, and you just cannot accept that.
Non-substantive pat answer.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 4:56:42 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Typical tactic of the calvinist to distort the posts of others. Were there any non-elect in that crowd, KJ? I believe v.43 indicates that there were.
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." (John 8:43-44)
Far from suggesting that the non-elect have the capacity to believe, what the above verses indicate is that not all people are God's children. Some belong to the Devil. Satan is their father; they are his children. They cannot possibly hear the words of life and believe. (c.f., 2 Cor 4:4). To the unbelieving (i.e., the non-elect), Jesus says:
I did tell you [that I am the Christ], but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." (John 10:25-26)
In stark contrast, God's children are able to hear his word. He continues:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;" (John 10:27)
Rather than seeing all human beings as "potentially" elect, Christ drew a clear dichotomy. Some were his; some were not. The former not only could but assuredly would hear his voice and follow him. The latter could neither hear nor follow.
~Aphobos
Clear, precise and biblical. Great post . . . welcome back Aphobos; it is always enjoyable and enlightening to read your posts.
Jesus had no trouble telling the fate of those who were stubborn at heart.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:08:18 PM
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SureHope
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FG,quote:
n your opinion, the "unless" or actually in the Greek, "if" cannot be a major point, or even a point, because it contradicts your theology
Now you get into the non-substantive type of argument; trying to define my motive. This kind of grade school argument is a waste of your time and mine.
The reason I say that the "unless" is not a major point is because the context shows that it is not. What the Scripture says is what drives my theology and Jesus made it clear what His major point was,
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus made it clear in verse 21, ". . . you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus repeats Himself in verse 22, "where I am going you cannot come." He didn't say, "where I am going you cannot come if you don't believe," but explicitly states that "where [Jesus] is going, they cannot come." Jesus makes this explicit declaration about them without any options.
When we get to verse 24 Jesus repeats Himself, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins . . ." They are "from below" and "of this world" (v23), therefore Jesus could affirm that they will die in their sins.
You keep saying I ignore the word "unless" which is totally false. I have brought up the term and agree that it could be translated "if". But in reality you have ignored the term "for," just as you have in Romans 1 and 3. Jesus made His declaration and then used the term "for" showing that what he had just stated would be explained by the statement that follows.
quote:
What you have tried to do is simply disregard the significance of the phrase:
"unless you believe that I am He". Ean in the Greek introduces a CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which you are denying.
I have affirmed that the term ean (unless) introduces a conditional sentence. Why do you keep saying I deny it? I also do not disregard the significance of the phrase. Actually I you show its true significance. The term "for" (Greek: gar) makes it clear that Jesus is explaining why He states they will die in their sin. This, plus the fact of everything He states before verse 24 shows clearly that the major point is that they will die in their sin.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:17:04 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
Typical tactic of the calvinist to distort the posts of others. Were there any non-elect in that crowd, KJ? I believe v.43 indicates that there were. Also, I never claimed Jesus was promising salvation without conditions, as you have dishonestly portrayed here.
Here is a condition;
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
The condition of man has been declared with a verdict from God. That is his condition.
I think you have no clue as to what a "conditional sentence" is, KJ. It speaks of a "condition" that has a guaranteed outcome or result of the condition.
quote:
Those that come into the Light are those He calls out from their condition of darkness.
That's correct. All who believe were called or invited.
quote:
And all those appointed to eternal life believe.......otherwise they die in their sins.
Sure, all those Gentiles who begged Paul to return the next Sabbath certainly lined themselves up for eternal life.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:25:09 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aphobos
Rather than seeing all human beings as "potentially" elect, Christ drew a clear dichotomy. Some were his; some were not. The former not only could but assuredly would hear his voice and follow him. The latter could neither hear nor follow.
No one has suggested that Jesus "saw" all human beings as "potentially" elect. I made the clear point that Jesus addressed both "pre-faith elect" as well as the clearly "non-elect" in John 8:24. The point is that He evangelized both groups with the same message.
What SH and KJ simply fail to grasp is the significance of the "if" in the sentence. Here is my interlinear parallel NT renders John 8:24:
"I told you that you would die in your sins; IF you do NOT believe that I am the one I claim to be, (THEN) you WILL indeed die in your sins."
This is very clearly a conditional statement. Jesus is promising the non-elect that they WILL die in their sins IF they do NOT believe in Him.
iow, dying in their sin is the RESULT of the condition of NOT believing in Him.
According to calvinism, the "non-elect cannot believe because they were not chosen. But Jesus doesn't even come close to saying that. He demonstrates potential of the non-elect to believe in Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:33:31 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
How does he come up with this stuff?
KJB
I am sometimes amazed at what is claimed to be truth. From "honor" meaning "seek" in Rom 1 and Cornelius being in a separate category of sinners from the "fool" category, the amazing interpretations keep coming. It would be nice to have a solid orthodox Arminian post, but they seem to be extinct . . . here anyway.
I really appreciate the scriptures you keep bringing forward with solid commentary. Keep 'em coming.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:36:08 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
The reason I say that the "unless" is not a major point is because the context shows that it is not. What the Scripture says is what drives my theology and Jesus made it clear what His major point was,
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus made it clear in verse 21, ". . . you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
This was NOT Jesus' major point. He clearly states WHY they will die in their sins, and He uses the "conditional" 'ean' to communicate that.
Deal with this statement, which comes directly out of my interlinear parallel NT for John 8:24:
"I told you that you would die in your sins; IF you do NOT believe that I am the one I claim to be, (THEN) you WILL die in your sins."
Do you see the condition and the result?
IF they do NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins.
OR:
IF they DO believe, they will NOT die in their sins.
Both are clear promises, since everything Jesus said is true. He was promising them a result based on the condition, which is whether they believe or not.
quote:
Jesus repeats Himself in verse 22, "where I am going you cannot come." He didn't say, "where I am going you cannot come if you don't believe," but explicitly states that "where [Jesus] is going, they cannot come." Jesus makes this explicit declaration about them without any options.
The "option" is found 2 verses later.
quote:
When we get to verse 24 Jesus repeats Himself, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins . . ." They are "from below" and "of this world" (v23), therefore Jesus could affirm that they will die in their sins.
Yes, and He gives them the "options" of 2 conditions, which determines the result or outcome. Deal with that.
quote:
You keep saying I ignore the word "unless" which is totally false. I have brought up the term and agree that it could be translated "if". But in reality you have ignored the term "for," just as you have in Romans 1 and 3. Jesus made His declaration and then used the term "for" showing that what he had just stated would be explained by the statement that follows.
Please deal with my interlinear translation, which is much closer to the Greek than the NASB, which I had been using.
quote:
quote:
What you have tried to do is simply disregard the significance of the phrase:
"unless you believe that I am He". Ean in the Greek introduces a CONDITIONAL SENTENCE which you are denying.
I have affirmed that the term ean (unless) introduces a conditional sentence. Why do you keep saying I deny it? I also do not disregard the significance of the phrase. Actually I you show its true significance. The term "for" (Greek: gar) makes it clear that Jesus is explaining why He states they will die in their sin. This, plus the fact of everything He states before verse 24 shows clearly that the major point is that they will die in their sin.
What you've continued to miss is the relationship between condition (believing) with result or outcome (dying). They reason they are going to die in their sins is conditioned on the fact that they will NOT believe in Him.
If calvinism were true, Jesus would have to have said "you WILL die in your sins because you were NOT chosen to believe.
Now, that would have been an honest statement if calvinism were true.
But Jesus gave them the solution to avoiding dying in their sin. iow, He evangelized those whom calvinism claims cannot be evangelized.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 7:03:21 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
The reason I say that the "unless" is not a major point is because the context shows that it is not. What the Scripture says is what drives my theology and Jesus made it clear what His major point was,
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus made it clear in verse 21, ". . . you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
This was NOT Jesus' major point.
Sure it was. The context shows this clearly
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus' point is that these people will die in their sins; they will not be able to find Him for where He is going they cannot come. These are very explicit statements. They will seek Him and will die in their sins. They could not come to where He was going - heaven.
Jesus expounds further why they will die in their sins and cannot go to where He was going. He does not regard them as deserving to be taught, but instead gives them a stern reproof.
And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23 NASB95)
He states that they "are from below" and "are of this world." Their citizenship was not from heaven, but from "this world."
Then Jesus uses the term "therefore," showing that what proceeds is directly tied to what went before.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; . (John 8:24a NASB95)
This is a judgment upon them. They are from below, the are of this world, therefore they will die in their sins. Why is it that this is so? Jesus comes with another reason. We know this is true because he starts His next statement with the word "for."
for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24b NASB)
The word "unless" is obviously in the sentence. It follows the term "for" which has great significance. The fact that "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" is a sober fact. But the significance of this statement must be taken in context. It is obvious that they would die in their sins because they did not believe.
If Jesus was offering salvation He would not have put such great stress on the fact that they would die in their sins, that they were from below, and that they were of the world. These were facts that Jesus pressed upon them. And the reason was because "unless you believe" (which they did not) "you shall die in your sins" (which we are assured they did).
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 8:03:09 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
The reason I say that the "unless" is not a major point is because the context shows that it is not. What the Scripture says is what drives my theology and Jesus made it clear what His major point was,
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus made it clear in verse 21, ". . . you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
This was NOT Jesus' major point.
Sure it was. The context shows this clearly
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” (John 8:21 NASB95)
Jesus' point is that these people will die in their sins; they will not be able to find Him for where He is going they cannot come. These are very explicit statements.
What is just as clear and explicit is the promise of dying in their sins IF they do NOT believe in Him. That is a promise that Jesus made to them.
quote:
They will seek Him and will die in their sins. They could not come to where He was going - heaven.
The reason is given in v.24; they will NOT believe in Him.
quote:
Jesus expounds further why they will die in their sins and cannot go to where He was going. He does not regard them as deserving to be taught, but instead gives them a stern reproof.
Nonsense. He was warning them of where they were heading, and gave them the solution to avoiding that. Yet you deny that.
quote:
And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23 NASB95)
He states that they "are from below" and "are of this world." Their citizenship was not from heaven, but from "this world."
What does this have to do with the issue? None. He was telling them He was from heaven, and they were from earth, just like you and me.
quote:
Then Jesus uses the term "therefore," showing that what proceeds is directly tied to what went before.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; . (John 8:24a NASB95)
But don't stop at v.24a. What is promised is in v.24b. "You WILL die in your sins IF you do NOT believe that I am who I claim to be."
quote:
This is a judgment upon them. They are from below, the are of this world, therefore they will die in their sins.
This is absurd. The judgment is based on the fact that they will NOT believe, not because they are from below. You are from this world as well, yet you are a believer and will NOT die in your sins. Your "logic" is quite fuzzy.
quote:
Why is it that this is so? Jesus comes with another reason. We know this is true because he starts His next statement with the word "for."
for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24b NASB)
From the actual Greek, it is better rendered, "IF you will NOT believe that I am who I claim to be". The "unless" is "if" with the negative.
quote:
The word "unless" is obviously in the sentence. It follows the term "for" which has great significance. The fact that "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" is a sober fact. But the significance of this statement must be taken in context. It is obvious that they would die in their sins because they did not believe.
From the Greek, He promises them that they WILL die in their sins IF they will NOT believe in Him.
quote:
If Jesus was offering salvation He would not have put such great stress on the fact that they would die in their sins, that they were from below, and that they were of the world.
Being "from this world" is irrelevant in the issue of salvation. ALL humans are from this world. Your point is absurd. It is only you who are placing ALL emphasis on the warning of dying in their sins.
You seem to be denying that He gave them the solution, which is to believe in Him. Why do you deny that? He gave them a warning and He gave them the solution.
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These were facts that Jesus pressed upon them. And the reason was because "unless you believe" (which they did not) "you shall die in your sins" (which we are assured they did).
Jesus stated His sentence as a conditional phrase. iow, IF they believed, they would NOT die in their sins. Or, IF they did NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 8:09:10 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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SH demonstrates a failure to understand the significance of a conditional sentence. He has put "all his marbles" in the warning of dying in sins, and ignoring the condition upon which that is based. Oh, yes, he admits they will die in their sins because they won't believe in Him.
But the sentence structure is clearly conditional, and he ignores/denies that.
What is the condition? Whether they believe or not.
What is the consequence? Dying in their sins or not.
What Jesus said to them was a promise.
He promised they would NOT die in their sins IF they believed in Him.
He promised they WILL die in their sins IF they did NOT believe in Him.
This is so clear that SH's pov is simply absurd.
The fact is that Jesus promised the non-elect how to avoid dying in their sins. They weren't interested, and they couldn't hear Him? Why? They were children of the devil. That's who they were listening to. He had deceived them.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 8:39:27 PM
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Theophile2
Posts: 216
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Diolectic – ref your post here and here as response to my post.
I would like to start this post in the same manner as my original post:
Ultimately, in the matter of choosing one's Christian denomination, we must side with the Reformer's mantra: “preserve unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in both” (- Rupertus Meldenius, circa 1627)
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/augustine/quote.html
And add to that a modified form of what I have posted elsewhere in this thread in response to whether or not choosing different Christian denominations is an essential issue:
IMHO, I believe that the Word of God in its entirety, being infallible and inerrant, is essential guidance for the living of our daily lives and that we should conform our daily decisions to said guidance. Also, IMHO, the studies that I have embarked on have convinced me it is essential for a Biblical theology to remain consistent across all subjects while taking the entire Word of God into account.
I do not believe that man's limited attempt to articulate the ways and means of an eternal God in the matters of choosing one's Christian denomination beyond a proper understanding of the person and work of Christ as the only way, truth, and life and the sole belief thereof in Him for salvation are essential. I believe that those who choose different Christian denominations, assuming a proper faith in Christ alone as their savior (with a proper understanding of who He is as savior), will still show up in heaven.
Which brings me to my first observation on your last post:
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Since His Father gave them to Him, how is it that Jesus chose them?
Interesting question, Diolectic. The way I interpret the comment, it is questioning Jesus’ statements both that God gave Him His disciples and that Jesus chose His disciples, and infers the statements to be contradictory. If I have interpreted the comment correctly, then what follows is a Jesus who has sinned and is therefore not fully God and nothing of what the Bible teaches about Jesus as the Messiah. If I interpreted the comment correctly, then we aren’t speaking of the same Jesus.
And yet I a priori presume that you confess Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity, and that you believe the Bible is both inerrant and infallible.
And if both those assumptions are truly the case, then I would respectfully ask for a clarification of this assertion regarding Jesus’ statements.
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Therefore you leave it open to universal salvation.
Actually, I’m not sure what you were referring to here as nothing that I have provided leaves open any interpretation for universal salvation from a Reformed Theology perspective, neither was there any reference made in that section that I am aware of to a scripture that universalists normally use to imply universal salvation. So I’m a little confused on the comment.
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You must deny that deciding to believe truth is only common sense.
What I affirm is scripture and with most other adherents to RT, I derive my theological understanding from scripture as I have annotated with regard to this perspective. Which verses in the Bible would you use to indicate that the Gospel is common sense and everyone who hears it believes it?
Jn 6:36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
Jn 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Jn 8:43 Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
Jn 8:45-46 And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
Jn 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
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Nothing here about inability to acknowledge truth and to act upon it.
This comment was made in reference to other scripture and as such confused me, but I would redirect to the above scripture and the scripture following below:
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Furthermore, deny that spiritual dead can still make moral decisions.
Yes, RT reads the Bible as being fairly clear that the spiritually dead cannot make spiritually moral decisions acceptable to God. Which is different than being able to make any decision at all (free will) which is perfectly acceptable in RT and it is different than the ability to make a decision based on civil virtue – also perfectly acceptable in RT. But these are not the same as being able to make spiritually moral decisions acceptable to God - from a RT perspective. For a more complete treatment of this subject, please refer to my original post.
Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
From your second post:
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God draws men by his love, and by showing them what his love has done for them.
Yes, the antecedent to the means and ways that Reformed Theology has amply annotated with Biblical references as explanation of how God has ordained His offer of Salvation through Christ alone.
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God chose to save those who will obey the call
Then He did not choose them. They chose themselves and infers an ability to obey of their own strength. I presume in this statement that you are referring to the Theological position that God has “foreknowledge” of those who would in their own strength choose Him. Which, of course, RT would argue against based on the following scriptures:
Jn 6:36-37 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
Jn 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
Jn 6:65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.
Jn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil?
Jn 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Jn 8:43 Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
Jn 8:45-46 And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
Jn 9:39 And Jesus said, I have come into this world for judgment, that they who do not see might see, and that they who see might be made blind.
Jn 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
Jn 15:16 You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it to you.
Jn 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Ro 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
quote:
… we willfully choose to obey the truth and come to Him as the FATHER has drawn.
This statement agrees with reformed theology, it just doesn’t explain the means and ways in which the Father does the drawing in the way RT does through scriptural annotation. Again, please refer to my original post for a more complete treatment of this subject in RT terms.
Now, we have established that Semi-Pelagian Theology interprets scripture through the following lens:
1. All humans are born in a natural state of righteousness and sinless at birth
2. All humans have the ability within themselves to choose to believe in truth, have faith in Christ, and be under God’s saving grace, instead of choosing to behave in sin.
3. Salvation is a gift from God.
And again, I derived those principles from your comments, but I’m still not sure to which scriptures you would turn to annotate them.
But I am getting the feeling that it is not quite as clear as to the principles Reformed Theology has derived from scripture, which may be the cause of some of your comments. Therefore I present them in a more formulaic manner below than I did in my original post.
1. That every human is totally depraved and incapable of turning to God in his/her own strength.
Ro 5:18-19 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous
2. That those who believe in Christ alone as their savior, are unconditionally elected. In other words, of the entire human race that has previously been established as being forever estranged from God, of His pure grace and mercy and with out respect to person or ability, He chooses to save some. The rest are passed over. One decision is active, the other passive.
2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
3. As a corollary to being chosen without respect to person, Christ’s atoning sacrifice is limited to those who have been given the gift of faith in Christ.
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
4. A further corollary to being chosen, is that His grace is irresistible.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
5. And finally, since all men and women are incapable in their own strength without the Holy Spirit, having been chosen by God to receive Christ’s atoning sacrifice by faith, called in an irresistible grace, are also preserved by God unto sanctification and salvation.
Ro 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13-14 MKJV in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
This is one of the many things I like about RT, every theological statement is based on scripture, cross-referenced with scripture for validation of the concept as being Biblical, and amply annotated as such.
All of my comments can be checked by going here:
The Westminster Large Catechism
Institutes of the Christian Religion
Charles Hodge Systematic Theology
And if I may, Diolectic, humbly request that you be more careful what you accuse me of.
If you stick to commenting on scripture and how you see Semi-Pelagian Theology applying to it you will be less likely to attack the person. I enjoy your discourse much more when you aren’t expressing yourself that way.
May God bless your week.
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"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 9:41:28 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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rwe,
A couple of thoughts regarding Adam, the Fall, and your comments...
Something I've been thinking about: Do you notice how Adam and Eve answered God? Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent. Even though they knew good and evil, they still did not take responsibility for their actions. That shows something about the sin nature.
Concerning Gen 4, you'll notice that Cain's side of the family didn't call upon the Lord. In fact, we even see Lamech boldly boast that his revenge will be seventy-sevenfold that of Cain.
It was through Seth's offspring that people began to call upon the Lord. Eve believed that God gave her Seth (which means appointed) to replace Abel whom Cain murdered. God was keeping his part of the covenant. My guess is that they glorified God because he was faithful to the covenant.
(I also think it's much easier to respond to God (or much more difficult to ignore him!) when he speaks to you directly, as he did Adam and Eve. )
Just some thoughts that have been floating around my mind...
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"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 10:16:54 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
I think SureHope made pretty good sense.
“I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.”
The word "cannot" implies inability not ability.
If there was some proposed solution He would not have used "cannot".
He would have said you "can come" if you "can" meet the following condition.
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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