|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Ishmael - 8/15/2008 9:04:41 AM
|
|
|
lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
|
My devotional book has currently taken me into Genesis and as I was reading about Isaac and Ishmael last night, I got thinking about this idea of Ishmael and his great nation.
As I sit here in a neighbourhood surrounded by Muslims, I'm left wondering what was God's purpose for this great nation? All the time I am told by Muslims that we worship the same God. I understand the history of Allah, the moon god, his wife, his daughters, the other gods of Arabia, how they got rid of the others and chose one. But often, people don't want to hear that.
I guess the question I am trying to get answered is:
Was Ishmael's great nation really intended to be another way to God, and how do you prove scripturally that it wasn't?
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 9:44:03 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
Genesis 17:19-22 clearly indicates that God's covenant would be established solely through Isaac even though God would graciously bless Ishmael and his descendants. It appears that the Ishmael's descendants rejected the blessings God had for them by succumbing to idol worship in Canaan and eventually denying the Lordship of Messiah through Islam.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 10:55:40 AM
|
|
|
Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Genesis 17:19-22 clearly indicates that God's covenant would be established solely through Isaac even though God would graciously bless Ishmael and his descendants. It appears that the Ishmael's descendants rejected the blessings God had for them by succumbing to idol worship in Canaan and eventually denying the Lordship of Messiah through Islam.
While I agree that the covenant was eestablished through the line of Isaac, are you not forgetting that the children of Israel also succumbed to idol worship in Canaan and rejected the God of their fathers?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 11:01:01 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Genesis 17:19-22 clearly indicates that God's covenant would be established solely through Isaac even though God would graciously bless Ishmael and his descendants. It appears that the Ishmael's descendants rejected the blessings God had for them by succumbing to idol worship in Canaan and eventually denying the Lordship of Messiah through Islam.
While I agree that the covenant was eestablished through the line of Isaac, are you not forgetting that the children of Israel also succumbed to idol worship in Canaan and rejected the God of their fathers?
Did the Jews stay that way - were they like that when Jesus was born in Bethlehem? I think there is a significant difference.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 11:14:52 AM
|
|
|
Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Genesis 17:19-22 clearly indicates that God's covenant would be established solely through Isaac even though God would graciously bless Ishmael and his descendants. It appears that the Ishmael's descendants rejected the blessings God had for them by succumbing to idol worship in Canaan and eventually denying the Lordship of Messiah through Islam.
While I agree that the covenant was eestablished through the line of Isaac, are you not forgetting that the children of Israel also succumbed to idol worship in Canaan and rejected the God of their fathers?
Did the Jews stay that way - were they like that when Jesus was born in Bethlehem? I think there is a significant difference.
No argument there. I just wanted to point out that the Old Testament is a history of Israel's unfaithfulness to God. Time and time again, when the people repented God forgave - only for the people to return to their sin.
When Jesus was born in Bethlehem, idol worship may not have been a major issue, but as Jesus' ministry pointed out, they had gone far astray from the love of God. Now instead of the worship of a man-made idol, their worship was guided by legalism and false doctrine.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 1:21:12 PM
|
|
|
steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Was Ishmael's great nation really intended to be another way to God, and how do you prove scripturally that it wasn't?
Since Jesus did say He is the only way to the Father if anyone can be saved without knowing Jesus as Lord it would only be because of Jesus's mercy which is at his discretion and we really can not prove one way or the other.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 1:56:03 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1254
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
Jude 24-"Now to him(Christ Jesus)who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, 25 to the only God[of Redemption and], our[Living]Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen."
Ishmael, Issac and Mohammad are all dead and buried nor did they claim otherwise; you can even 'visit' Mohammad's grave in Medina. On the other hand, “[Jesus] proved He had a valid claim [to His Deity] but His own rejected His claim yet as many as receives His message; to them he claimed the right to become redeemed of God and appropriate His Name.“ John 1:11,12
'Ishmael' and 'Muslim' are not synonymous. While both are corruptions, Mohammad established 'religion of Islam' system of belief about 600 years after Christ. The difference couldn't be more stark; adhering to a dead system of belief and their yoke law of uncertainty or sacrifice and obedience to a Living Savior and His Victory.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 2:04:38 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1910
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
It was through Isaac that God chose to establish those who would be blessed... "it was through Isaac whom your descendants will be counted."
The only promise to Ishmael was to make him a great nation, which happened but in the process that nation was lost.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 4:38:31 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
No argument there. I just wanted to point out that the Old Testament is a history of Israel's unfaithfulness to God. Time and time again, when the people repented God forgave - only for the people to return to their sin. I guess, Dubya, that I would see the glass half full. To me the OT is a history of God's mercy and grace toward Israel culminating in the NT provision of Abraham's covenant for believing Gentiles as well - Romans chapter 4. My faith is in the God of Abraham's offspring, not the god(s) of Ishmaelites!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 4:41:45 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
'Ishmael' and 'Muslim' are not synonymous. I realize not all Ishmaelites are Muslim. Are not all original Muslims descendants of Ishmael?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/15/2008 7:05:29 PM
|
|
|
Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No argument there. I just wanted to point out that the Old Testament is a history of Israel's unfaithfulness to God. Time and time again, when the people repented God forgave - only for the people to return to their sin. I guess, Dubya, that I would see the glass half full. To me the OT is a history of God's mercy and grace toward Israel culminating in the NT provision of Abraham's covenant for believing Gentiles as well - Romans chapter 4. My faith is in the God of Abraham's offspring, not the god(s) of Ishmaelites!
And I agree with this 100%.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 2:11:29 AM
|
|
|
ironsharpensiron
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
Ishmael was a result of Abraham believing he was to somehow 'help' God in making His Word come to pass. We all know God had other plans, and that was through a child born of Sarah, not her maidservant. But since God is a gracious God, He allowed Ishmael to live, and to prosper because he was a seed from Abraham. That was why God blessed Ishmael.
I tend to believe that if Abraham would have waited on the Lord instead of trying to 'help,' then we wouldn't be going through the middle-east turmoil today.
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 2:21:29 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1767
Status: offline
|
quote:
Was Ishmael's great nation really intended to be another way to God, and how do you prove scripturally that it wasn't?
Never "another way" to God, since there is only one way, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ, who traced His human ancestry back to Abraham through Judah, Jacob, and Isaac.
The Koran, as well as the history of Mohammed reveals that he was familiar with the OT Scriptures as well as the Gospel. However, Satan came to him as an angel of light and used him to not only reject the Gospel but pervert the truth about Ishmael and Isaac.
Had Mohammed embraced the Gospel and proclaimed it among his people, "Ishmael" (the nations descended from him) would indeed have become a great people. However the prophecy regarding Ishmael may find it's fulfillment in the Milllenium and beyond after the unholy trinity has been confined to the Lake of Fire.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 8/16/2008 2:29:12 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 2:32:43 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1767
Status: offline
|
quote:
I tend to believe that if Abraham would have waited on the Lord instead of trying to 'help,' then we wouldn't be going through the middle-east turmoil today.
And had the Jews believed on the Lord Jesus Christ instead of rejecting their Messiah, the Middle East would have become something altogether different. In both cases, it was unbelief. That is also a lesson for Christians, since there is much unbelief in the churches.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 5:23:39 AM
|
|
|
Annie64
Posts: 915
Joined: 6/4/2007
From: Indianapolis, IN
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Ishmael was a result of Abraham believing he was to somehow 'help' God in making His Word come to pass. We all know God had other plans, and that was through a child born of Sarah, not her maidservant. But since God is a gracious God, He allowed Ishmael to live, and to prosper because he was a seed from Abraham. That was why God blessed Ishmael.
I tend to believe that if Abraham would have waited on the Lord instead of trying to 'help,' then we wouldn't be going through the middle-east turmoil today.
matthew
My dad used to say something like this, and I don't think either he or you meant what I heard when he said it, that Ishmael, and all those descended from him, should never have been born at all. It is like saying to those of Arab descent, "the world would be a better place without you in it." Please don't take offense; I'm not accusing you of racism. But I don't agree with you, because I think that argument can go there too easily. And if you apply it to today's world, it is kind of like saying, that any child who is conceived by their parent's sin, and their children and grandchildren after them, is a detriment to the world.
I think Ishmael became what he was prophesied to be, a "wild donkey of a man" against everyone and everyone against him, because of his choices, and not because Abraham's faith faltered. It faltered, but it came back.
It is clear in Scripture that God's promise to make Ishmael into a great nation--which He did--were the result of Abraham's prayer for him. (see Genesis 17: 18, 20). I've always loved this part of the story, and nobody else seems to notice it. Abraham showed that he believed God's promise that he would have a child by Sarah by praying for Ishmael, who was going to be displaced. He was thinking ahead and acting in love for Ishmael. And God heard and answered by making this promise. What a hope for parents praying for their children! "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you..." (verse 20) Abraham always had this promise, even when the more negative prophesies about Ishmael started coming true.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 8:41:55 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
That is also a lesson for Christians, since there is much unbelief in the churches. I'm not sure I'm following you, Ezra. What are unbelieving Christian churches? The concept is theologically impossible.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 10:00:34 AM
|
|
|
drfuss
Posts: 190
Joined: 3/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
'Ishmael' and 'Muslim' are not synonymous. I realize not all Ishmaelites are Muslim. Are not all original Muslims descendants of Ishmael?
drfuss: The orginial Muslims were from Saudia Arabia and considered themselves descendents of Ishmael. Today, only Arabs are considered descentents of Ishmael.
When the Arabs Muslims from Saudia Arabia made their first expansion into Egypt, Syria, etc., They required forced conversions of the Christian men or die. It is estimated that 80% choose death rather than convert. Their sons became slaves. Their wives and daughters became a part of the Arab Muslim warrior's harem in that country. In a few generations, all could claim to be descendents of Ishmael.
During the second muslim expansion into Iran, Iraq, Parts of Turkey, etc., the Christains were encouraged to convert, but not killed. They were subjected to Muslim rulers with no oppertunities or rights if they had a legal issue with a Muslim. Under such conditions, it only took a few generations for Muslims to become the majority.
This is the reason there are Arab Muslims and non-Arab Muslims in the Middle East. Of course there are some who converted to be Muslims from other parts of the world.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 10:40:05 AM
|
|
|
wshepherd
Posts: 300
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
All the time I am told by Muslims that we worship the same God.
I would really challenge this statement, because Muslims do say that God is not a father, and he has no son.
This is contrary to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who IS a Father, and who has a Son.
He cannot be both.
_____________________________
Wanda Shepherd
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/16/2008 6:24:11 PM
|
|
|
ironsharpensiron
Posts: 153
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
|
quote:
My dad used to say something like this, and I don't think either he or you meant what I heard when he said it, that Ishmael, and all those descended from him, should never have been born at all. It is like saying to those of Arab descent, "the world would be a better place without you in it." Please don't take offense; I'm not accusing you of racism. But I don't agree with you, because I think that argument can go there too easily. And if you apply it to today's world, it is kind of like saying, that any child who is conceived by their parent's sin, and their children and grandchildren after them, is a detriment to the world
Whenever a quote begins 'my dad used to say...' it tells me I am getting old! 
No, I do not mean at all that he should not have been born, that is definiately not a nice thing to say, and even though I do not know your dad, I'm sure he never meant it in that light either.
I cannot blame Ishmael for his father's choice, and I wouldn't call it a sin perse' on Abrahams part either considering in that culture it was quite common to utilize concubines and maidservants to continue ones line.
I strongly believe that if he had waited on God, and His ultimate plan a lot of death and turmoil could have been averted. Who knows, Abraham may have had another child after Isaac, and that one could have turned out to be the line of Ishmael...one never knows. But since Ishmael came first, we have the history we have.
If you bring the line of thinking to todays world, as you have suggested, and that children born out of sinful parents are a detriment, well, that never entered into my reasoning at all. God will be glorified in any situation, and even a child born out of a sinful relationship can be used mightily by God in ministry, although that, of course, is up to that child who grows up to be or not to be what God planned in their life. Through the Grace of God He can turn a negative into a positive!!
Yes, Abraham faltered, took it upon himself to help God's Word come to fruition, and Ishmael was the result. Imagine what it would have been like if he had waited on the Lord's timing... 
matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/18/2008 9:24:02 AM
|
|
|
lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: wshepherd
quote:
ORIGINAL: lexie
All the time I am told by Muslims that we worship the same God.
I would really challenge this statement, because Muslims do say that God is not a father, and he has no son.
This is contrary to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who IS a Father, and who has a Son.
He cannot be both.
That is why I posted this question...because many like to say that we are all from the same God, I want to make sure I have a full and complete understanding before I challenge it.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/18/2008 10:19:11 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 1910
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Seems the answer is quite simple. Islam denies Christ and Christ is God!!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/19/2008 7:55:21 AM
|
|
|
lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
|
I know the answer seems simple, but when talking with Muslims and explaining to them why they are wrong, it's much harder than that. They believe what they are taught, not from a personal place like us, but because they are told that's how it is. A lot of them also are told a lot of misconceptions about Christianity. They are given Bible scriptures to prove that they are right, they believe it's the same God as us, and to discuss this with them takes a lot of preparation and knowledge on our part.
So while it seems simple to us, to get them to see it is not as simple.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/19/2008 8:27:15 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3145
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
So while it seems simple to us, to get them to see it is not as simple. Is the Holy Spirit able "to get them to see it"? Perhaps "explaining to Muslims why they are wrong" is not such an effective apologetic as it is with folks from other backgrounds. Just a thought as I have almost no experience witnessing to Muslims, but I do have some to atheists. Atheists also "believe what they're taught and are told lots of misconceptions about Christianity"!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Ishmael - 8/19/2008 4:18:48 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3587
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
We are taught and encouraged to speak to other belief systems
with our knowledge and/or theology.
But we are encouraging people here to consider what the real
Gospel is and what the power over the antichrist spirit is.
The Blood of the Lamb; and the word of their testimony.
The Holy Spirit does the convicting of sin. We are to witness
to the Blood of the Lamb of God with the word of our testimony.
We all were sinners, but the testimony we each and all have is
that Jesus/Yeshua brought us out of darkness into light.
Believe me, they will understand more than you know.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
