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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:36:22 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I've met such folk that admitted to taking cold medicine containing alchol and, yes, they admitted to sinning - then asking forgiveness when the flu or cold was over. It's a strange lot that lives by theology built on a man-deduced premise.
I've yet to meet up with someone from that perspective. I do believe I would become completely unhinged.
Believe me, they exist. I belonged to such a group for... way too many years. More than a few of them believe a certain translation of the Bible is inspired just like the original manuscripts - but no others. Some believe that women wearing pants is among the worst sins possible. I could go on, but you probabbly get the picture.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:42:37 PM
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GroupW
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I hear you both. I spent jr. high/high school in a fundy church but returned to my CRC roots later in life. I've run into the pants/alcohol thing, just not specifically The Great Nyquil Controversy.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:45:16 PM
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deliveredarling
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Alcohol I understand.....
Nyquil, is beyond me unless it's coming from a recovery perspective (people have used it to get high and drunk off of), but recovery is not a religion.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:46:43 PM
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Zhi
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Some people consider it a sin to drink alcohol. Any alcohol. That's why some people think it's so important to try to say that Jesus didn't drink alcohol, because if they think drinking alcohol is a sin and He did so, then He sinned or they're wrong, neither of which they consider a pleasant alternative.
In my opinion Scripture is quite clear that getting drunk is a sin, but drinking alcohol in moderation is not. Neither is not drinking alcohol at all.
I personally do not drink alcohol, and I come from a family that does not drink alcohol, not due to any idea that it's a sin, but just as a personal choice of... I dunno if "not risking it" is really it. My parents allowed me to taste some champagne at a wedding when I was 12, for instance. Probably more that frankly I think it tastes gross and it just wasn't something we did. Kind of like skydiving isn't something we did but we didn't really think it was a sin.
It's all a matter of wanting to make rules just in case, though, I think. Kind of like some churches think dancing is a sin. Others think that using any musical instruments whatsoever when playing worship music is a sin. Mostly you have to look at what Scripture says and see if they're supported in that. It's done out of a desire to avoid things that might "lead into" sin, but taking that to the logical conclusion none of us should get out of bed in the morning because doing that leads to eventually probably sinning at some point during the day. Though not getting out of bed I suppose would be "sloth", so I guess we're in trouble either way.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:49:08 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Kind of like skydiving isn't something we did but we didn't really think it was a sin.
Similar in some aspects - neither one is something that you can do incorrectly without some sort of penalty.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:49:22 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Some people consider it a sin to drink alcohol. Any alcohol. That's why some people think it's so important to try to say that Jesus didn't drink alcohol, because if they think drinking alcohol is a sin and He did so, then He sinned or they're wrong, neither of which they consider a pleasant alternative.
In my opinion Scripture is quite clear that getting drunk is a sin, but drinking alcohol in moderation is not. Neither is not drinking alcohol at all.
I personally do not drink alcohol, and I come from a family that does not drink alcohol, not due to any idea that it's a sin, but just as a personal choice of... I dunno if "not risking it" is really it. My parents allowed me to taste some champagne at a wedding when I was 12, for instance. Probably more that frankly I think it tastes gross and it just wasn't something we did. Kind of like skydiving isn't something we did but we didn't really think it was a sin.
It's all a matter of wanting to make rules just in case, though, I think. Kind of like some churches think dancing is a sin. Others think that using any musical instruments whatsoever when playing worship music is a sin. Mostly you have to look at what Scripture says and see if they're supported in that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/18/2008 3:53:12 PM
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Qtman
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I don't drink either Zhi. I never developed a taste for wines or beers. I did like a good bourbon from time to time or maybe a frozen margarita during the summer but it has been years since I have had either. But still I find no fault with those that do.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 9:59:15 AM
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edgibson
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If I am not mistaken, there is a verse that refers to diluting the wine. I have been wracking my brain to find it, but have had no luck.
My view of the whole thing is that, at the time, there was little potable water. The only safe drinks were derived from fruits, grapes being the most prominent.
In this day, there is plenty of water and other alternatives to alcoholic beverages. I would hazard to guess that if there were as many plentiful, safe, alternatives to alcohol then, Jesus would most likely have used them.
Personally, I abstain from alcohol as a beverage, for many reasons. I do, however, use it for medicinal reasons. For example; pure grain alcohol will remove a cold sore from your mouth overnight with only one application. (swish, don't swallow).
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 10:42:39 AM
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captainfraulein
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Jesus turned water into wine for the guests at the marriage feast of Cana AFTER they had drank all the remaining wine! Then He made about 160 more gallons of wine out of water...better tasting than all the other stuff. John 2 NIV
Most agree the wine was not as strong then as the stuff we have now but it is hard to side-step the hard evidence of Scripture.
(Uh, my avatar was put on here before I participated in this thread! I love wine and chocolate but have them only occasionally as fighting the battle of the bulge...)
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 12:25:53 PM
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Kath
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Moving from Morality/Ethics to The Bible
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 12:39:55 PM
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colliefan
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This is one of the cases where common sense is needed to interpret the bible. The bible is clearly against drunkenness. Paul instructed Timothy to take some wine for his illness. There are verses supporting the consumption of wine and verse oposing its consumption.
One has to remember the reason Mr. Welch invented his process for producing grape juice is that he didn't want wine to be used for communion.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 2:43:18 PM
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wreid77
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Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37
"Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."
Job 32:19
"inside I am like bottled-up wine, like new wineskins ready to burst."
Old wineskins burst when filled with new wine because they cannot expand (because they have been hardened by the fermentation process) the gas released during fermentation causes them to rupture.
New wineskins will burst when the are tightly closed and the gas built up during the fermentation process is not released causing them to rupture.
Here are old and new testament verses relating what would have been an easy to understand, literal truth to the spiritual. When you use imagery you don't use something that people will be unfamiliar with. My conclusion is that fermentation often occured and so alcohol existed in the wine.
I've seen other arguments that the fermentation process and the presence of alcohol made the wine safer to drink than water, but that is speculation about the culture. We have in the above verses confirmation of alcoholic wine.
Does this mean that all of what they drank and called wine was alcoholic? No. But it does mean that fermentation occured often enough that it was an easily recognizable and relatable image for contemporaries of the old testament book of Job and the Gospels of the new testament.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 2:43:45 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
The idea that Jesus made grape juice just seems absurd to me. And you realize that those who have been brought up thinking alcohol is one of the world's great evils (my church taught that if you inadvertantly smelled alcohol you lost your salvation) the idea that Jesus would drink or make for others' consumption anything that contained alcoholic seems absurd.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 2:56:19 PM
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wreid77
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The other side of this argument is a morality argument and is not on whether the wine was actually wine or just grape juice.
I attend a Southern Baptist church that adamantly opposes any consumption of alcohol. The pastor's way of consolodating this view with biblical drinking is...
Even if you only ever drink 'socially' and never get drunk, your children (or others who look to you for guidance) may witness your drinking and may take the next step by not being as controlled as you were. They would become drunk, thus sinning and you would be their stumbling block.
A bit of a reach in my opinion, but at least it's an argument based in reality rather than denying that alcohol was in the Bible or decrying it as inherently evil.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 3:20:09 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
In my opinion Scripture is quite clear that getting drunk is a sin, but drinking alcohol in moderation is not. And how do you answer those mathemeticians who insist that if it takes 6 beers to get you drunk, 1 beer will make you 1/6 drunk and being even a little drunk is drunk? (like being a little pregnant)
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 3:25:17 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
It's all a matter of wanting to make rules just in case, though, I think. .... It's done out of a desire to avoid things that might "lead into" sin, Is that not one of the criticisms Jesus had with the Pharasees, that they made so many "fences" to avoid breaking the Torah commands they totally lost sight of what the commands really were about?
Is not the absolute forbiddance of alcohol really the same thing? Any use of alcohol becomes the sin instead of drunkenness.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 4:16:47 PM
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J_Michael80
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There is a clear distinction made in the bible between wine and strong drink. Indeed, in the bible there appears to be wine that was fermented (alcoholic) and non-fermented (grape juice). Unfortunately, we don't know who drank which types of wine in every verse. Although some verses does specify what they were drinking, not all verses give us a clear and precise answer. I would recommend to those that absolutely have to drink alcohol, please use wise judgement and don't get drunk. I would not recommend alcohol to any of my friends or family, but this is my own personal recommendation.
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 8/19/2008 5:05:46 PM >
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 5:33:24 PM
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wreid77
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I certainly agree, but...
Where my pastor makes it clear that his argument is personal not biblical many make this a sin issue by saying the Bible prohibits drinking alcohol.
I don't drink, so I'm not making this argument to support me, but I simply do not find a biblical argument against any alcoholic consumption. There is definitely a problem with drinking to the point of drunkeness, but I think that is more about the loss of self control. Then you have an argument of when do you lose self control, or someone saying I drink but don't lose self control, but I think it's obvious to those around them that they have gone beyond that point even if it is not clear to the drinker.
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