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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/19/2008 9:08:25 PM
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colliefan
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I grew up SB and while they were against any consumption of alcohol, they had no problems with glutony.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 1:35:49 AM
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I_Walk_Alone
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As a former Catholic, it was always alcohol. But I personal have no problem with consumption, but I do have a problem with glutony.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 8:21:32 AM
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timf
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage?
We have technology today that was unavailable during Biblical times. Even with adding sugar to grape juice it is difficult to get an alcohol percentage higher than 12-14%. This is because as the alcohol percentage rises, the environment for the bacteria that make the alcohol becomes more hostile to them. Some speculate that given the technology of the times Roman alcohol was never higher than 6-8%. I suspect they could have achieved over 10%.
Another factor to consider is that there were quite a number of grades of wine until you got down to the slimy dregs that might be purchased for slaves. It also was not unusual to water down wine for cost effectiveness. This may be what is being described at the Wedding at Canaan.
Because of the sugar content of grape juice, it will be acted upon by bacteria to produce either vinegar or wine. The only way this can be stopped is with refrigeration, heat sterilization and vacuum sealing, or irradiation and vacuum sealing.
The process of concentrating alcohol through distillation was unknown. Economics did not provide for either a wide distribution of wealth or for much disposable income which also served to limit both the consumption of wine and the available alcoholic content.
While people could get drunk and did, the use of wine was much different than what we are familiar with today. While historically and technologically interesting, the use of wine during Biblical times has little bearing on what the Bible says.
1. When the Bible says people drank wine, they drank wine.
2. When the Bible says we should not be filled with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit, that is exactly what it means.
We don't have to try to twist history or the Bible to manipulate people to do what we want or what we think is best for them. This is the path of the Pharisee and it leads to no good place.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 11:42:01 AM
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Liveloved
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DD,
In Titus 2:3 older women are warned to not be enslaved to much wine. Would such a warning exist if they were really drinking grape juice? Anyway, I agree with all those who say there is no question about wine being alcoholic. We are to be wise in how we live and that includes what we put in our mouths.  LL
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 2:01:04 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
We don't have to try to twist history or the Bible to manipulate people to do what we want or what we think is best for them. But there are people (not being pharasaical) who honestly believe that any alcohol consumption by anyone is sinful. Jesus drinking regular wine becomes seriously problematic as that would say that HE sinned, thus invalidating himself as our sacrifice.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 2:09:15 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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Dave is right, these people do exist. I had a lady from my former church spread rumors I was drunk in a resturaunt. That I had a drinking problem.
I was not even drinking alcohol when she saw me.
She was mistaken.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 3:04:05 PM
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J_Michael80
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quote:
original: DaveW
But there are people (not being pharasaical) who honestly believe that any alcohol consumption by anyone is sinful. Jesus drinking regular wine becomes seriously problematic as that would say that HE sinned, thus invalidating himself as our sacrifice.
I agree with you Dave. I have met people who believe any alcohol consumption is sinful. We need to be careful on how we approach this and look at it from both sides.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 3:28:47 PM
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J_Michael80
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I also agree with the OP. We all should to get back to the original post. The question was whether the wine used in the biblical times was grape juice or alcoholic. According to scripture, I believe there was both fermented and non-fermented wine in the bible.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 3:47:06 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: faithfulservant_
I also agree with the OP. We all should to get back to the original post. The question was whether the wine used in the biblical times was grape juice or alcoholic. According to scripture, I believe there was both fermented and non-fermented wine in the bible.
But non-alcoholic wine would only be so for a brief time, since there is yeast on the grape skins that will begin the fermentation as soon as they are crushed.
Also be aware that grapes aren't harvested year round, so, except for harvest time, plain grape juice wasn't particularly available to everyone.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/20/2008 9:33:53 PM
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cog41
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As stated before,I believe they used real wine. I use grape juice. But I'm not afraid or convicted to use wine containing alcohol in the Lord's Table. I'm just not a fan of wine with anything. If I were a fan i would probably use it in the Lord's supper.
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Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/21/2008 12:38:50 AM
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mch3172
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A very interesting discussion. The idea that drinking any alcohol is inherently sinful actually has quite recent historical roots. It only goes back to the 1820s at the earliest with the popularity of the Temperance movement in the US, and the Temperance movement only called for complete abstention from alcohol after it went secular, as long as it was a religious movement it only called for moderation. Before this date, the church broadly considered did not have a problem with the moderate consumption of alcohol, for instance, the Puritans were avid brewers and consumers of beer (even with breakfast--this was before coffee was affordable.) Indeed, Martin Luther's wife Katherine ran the family brewery.
Further contextual evidence that "new wine" is not grape juice--the accusation at Pentecost that Peter is speaking in tongues because he is full of new wine wouldn't make any sense if it were referring to Welch's.
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/21/2008 6:10:05 PM
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Shrommer
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I think it's a very good point that even when the Greek speaks of "new wine" at the day of Pentecost, it relates it to the impression of drunkenness. I hadn't picked up on that one before, but I had noticed "Do not be drunk with wine ..."
With the last supper, the Passover Seder tradition has not reported any changes from anything else in the past to the wine they use currently, and this is standard for Jews in any part of the world, as far as I know.
When Paul speaks of not being drunk at their feasts (I Cor. 11) it is not certain that what they got drunk on is the same wine they used "in memory of" Christ's blood, but I think it was the same wine anyway.
I don't think the customs surrounding wine have changed in the Mediterranean area for about 3,000 years, continuing until the present day, except that in about 700 AD the spread of Islam made northern Africa, Lebanon and Jordan (a few others?) turn dry. I am referring to Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Israel ...
First Corinthians 14 (14:21) cites Isaiah 28. Isaiah 28 makes a great read. God decided to speak to the Hebrews with other tongues because the Hebrew prophets were just babbling and getting drunk anyway. It was like God got fed up trying to get an understandable message to His people, and said, "If you want gibberish, I'll give you gibberish."
Isaiah 28:10 and 28:13 can sound like baby talk or drunk talk, according to an NIV footnote - sort of a blah, blah, blah, a yadda yadda yadda, or a yabba dabba doo.
Isaiah 28 starts off talking about the flower and the valley that were used to make drink. In the TNIV it translates 28:7 as wine and beer, and verse 8 says it made them vomit. Apparently the valley was used to make wine, and the flowers to make beer. This is a different rendering than the versions that talk about wine and strong drink (hard liquor? spirits?).
(Anyway, it can be a challenge to read all of Isaiah 28 and all of I Corinthians 14 to try and figure out why Paul cites Isaiah 28 to say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers. See also Romans 11:1-25. It's pretty cool that tongues were associated with drunken speech at Pentecost in the light of Isaiah 28. )
Now, a bit off the point, I wonder why people are using a lower case "b" when they write about the Bible. It's the title of a book, isn't it? Don't we capitalize titles in English?
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/21/2008 6:20:22 PM
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Shrommer
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I am surprised nobody brought up the references to drink in Proverbs. There are some passages that talk about drunkenness and why we should avoid alcohol (especially the king), and others in the same book of Proverbs that tell us that we should give wine to those who are miserable for them to forget their sorrows, although it could just be a way of saying that drinking wine to forget your sorrows is a pathetic act which is not fitting of the honorable kinds of people that we should be in God's Kingdom.
Either way, these verses in Proverbs would not make sense if they spoke of unfermented grape juice. Also, please consider that whatever grape juice they kept in their refrigerators, it wasn't Welch's, since Welch's only went into business in 1869. 
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/22/2008 7:11:23 AM
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momof4
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From: an urban paradise!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I've met such folk that admitted to taking cold medicine containing alchol and, yes, they admitted to sinning - then asking forgiveness when the flu or cold was over. It's a strange lot that lives by theology built on a man-deduced premise.
I've yet to meet up with someone from that perspective. I do believe I would become completely unhinged.
Believe me, they exist. I belonged to such a group for... way too many years. More than a few of them believe a certain translation of the Bible is inspired just like the original manuscripts - but no others. Some believe that women wearing pants is among the worst sins possible. I could go on, but you probabbly get the picture.
Not that I ever said this myself, but I can remember Nyquil being referred to as "Baptist brandy", IOW, those who were teetotalers, generalized as "Baptists" by non-Baptists, would rush out and get Nyquil at the first sign of sniffles. In those days, I'm talking 30 or more yrs ago, there wasn't a non-alcoholic variety of Nyquil or its equivalents.
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"There's more to life than just to live" (Jonas Brothers, "Hold On")
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RE: Biblical wine, grape juice or alcoholic beverage? - 8/22/2008 10:46:07 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momof4
Not that I ever said this myself, but I can remember Nyquil being referred to as "Baptist brandy", IOW, those who were teetotalers, generalized as "Baptists" by non-Baptists, would rush out and get Nyquil at the first sign of sniffles. In those days, I'm talking 30 or more yrs ago, there wasn't a non-alcoholic variety of Nyquil or its equivalents. I remember a few sermons on Nyquil, Listerene, Scope and vanilla extract; how having any of them in your house put your salvation in jepordy....because just smelling the alcohol was enough to cause you to sin and have to get saved again.
Interesting that the congregation folded just before the ethanol plant was built a few miles away, making the whole town smell like a beer when the wind was from the south.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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