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RE: Rob Bell - 8/25/2008 9:07:35 AM
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P31W
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quote:
We simply aren't doing what the New Testament clearly tells us we should be doing, plain and simple
Some do and some don't. In the USA we have the freedom to associate with any chruch group we want to.
After the "sound doctrine" part of looking at a Chruch I am considering joining I look at their benevolance program. I won't join a Chruch that does not have an active benevolance program. It's part of the sound doctrine that teaches me to be "doers" of the word.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/25/2008 1:07:38 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Using a "quote" from the secular world such as "all is permissiable" and then adding to that the Christian view that "not all is profitable" is not the same thing as sending someone to a person who denies the Diety of Christ and Bodily Resurrection for religious guidance or instruction.
Off topic - Have you been reading some of my posts on other forums???? I just finished a post on that last week suggesting that with antinomianism a factor in that sector of the world, it's entirely possible to read the "all is permissible" as a quote of an external source with what follows being a rebuttal of that idea.
(FYI - I got my head handed to me on that one. I still think I'm right, though.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/26/2008 8:51:33 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Off topic - Have you been reading some of my posts on other forums????
Some of your other post I have read but nothing to do with that passage.
quote:
I just finished a post on that last week suggesting that with antinomianism a factor in that sector of the world, it's entirely possible to read the "all is permissible" as a quote of an external source with what follows being a rebuttal of that idea.
For as long as I can remember that is the way it was taught to me. I think even John MacArthur teaches it that way. I will do a quick check.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/26/2008 9:56:12 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
For as long as I can remember that is the way it was taught to me. I think even John MacArthur teaches it that way. I will do a quick check.
Interesting. You're fortunate to get good teaching. I don't think it's commonly taught that way (IMO it should be!) I had to come up with it on my own - never heard anyone teach that before.
We can now return to the regularly scheduled topic.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 8:24:01 AM
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P31W
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I did my research. I keep several commentaries on my bookshelf for quick reference at home. I did a quick check of John MacArthur (reformed), Warren Wiersbe (Southern Baptist) and Jon Coursen (Calvary Chapel)
all three believe it came from a group within the Corinthain church who were antinomianism and using their liberty in Christ as a means to sin.
Is the thread still alive? I would like to see who disagreeded and how "upset" it made them. 
If you came up with it on your own that tells me you have biblical discernment. You are able to take what you have learned about the era and apply it to scripture giving you a more accurate and complete picture of the teaching.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/27/2008 8:45:11 AM >
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 9:18:07 AM
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drmark
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If you came up with it on your own that tells me you have biblical discernment. Then GroupW should have little difficulty discerning the unbiblical stances taken by some in the Emergent Church! 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 9:28:31 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Then GroupW should have little difficulty discerning the unbiblical stances taken by some in the Emergent Church!
I agree completely.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 9:42:56 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If you came up with it on your own that tells me you have biblical discernment. Then GroupW should have little difficulty discerning the unbiblical stances taken by some in the Emergent Church!
Thanks for including the "some" in your statement above. Too often people get carried away by what they think they know, what others have said about others, and quotes taken from some of the EMC writers removed from context. That's my official position on this thread.
Unofficially, I would grant that there are some that stretch the bounds further than I'm comfortable with.
Don't tell Cranky that.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 9:43:35 AM
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P31W
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quote:
We have historical and biblical examples of any number of humble people standing up and saying, "No, you're wrong." In this case, I think the importance of the point he's making is such that I think it's worth risking accusations of arrogance.
ROFL
The other day when I was trying to google the John MacArthur comment on the corinthian slogan I found a forum made up of EC folks. They were discussing Bell and McLaren and how "humble" those men were in comparison to John MacAuthor who was speaking out against their false doctrine.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 11:58:03 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Too often people get carried away by what they think they know, what others have said about others, and quotes taken from some of the EMC writers removed from context. That's my official position on this thread.
I cannot speak for everyone on this thread. I know for a fact that Mushhead and I both spend many hundreds probably hours reading the works of some of the most "well respected" people "in" the EC.
So for us at least we are not going off what others have said but off their own words taken in the "larger" contect of a bigger body of their works. (in other words we have studies many of their teachings and read many of their books)
I am sure you will see they don't advocate "sound doctrine" rather they question it. Anyone can do that. Even me.
They both McLaren and Bell say they are preachers. But preachers are call to "teach sound doctrine" not question it and leave the audience with more questions than answers then direct that confused audience to people who deny the diety of Christ.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 12:30:23 PM
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crankius
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quote:
Too often people get carried away by what they think they know, what others have said about others, and quotes taken from some of the EMC writers removed from context.
For myself, Group, I've always read the writings to know for myself what they say. I am very careful to not quote out of context. It has always been my intent in the EC threads to discuss the meat of the argument and not play semantics.
It's been a while since I've participated in an EC thread because too often the EC people play with words and mix in worldly wisdom. Concern for correct doctrine gets tossed aside and insulted (which frankly tells me something about their world view).
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 1:58:03 PM
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P31W
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I think we all must admit that there are many threads on this forum especially in the theology section that are nothing more than witch hunts. The people involved in those things are pretty much exposed because that's what they spend almost all their time here doing. Pretty much slandering (I know it's not slander when you type it) any preacher/teacher/minister they don't like.
They like to go to some wacko websites and post whatever negative they can find about the person. For me it's more telling about the poster than it is about the person they are trying to make out to be evil.
For those people the truth does not matter. They can mix in a little lie here and there and it's OK in thier own eyes to do that.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 4:42:13 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
Too often people get carried away by what they think they know, what others have said about others, and quotes taken from some of the EMC writers removed from context.
For myself, Group, I've always read the writings to know for myself what they say. I am very careful to not quote out of context. It has always been my intent in the EC threads to discuss the meat of the argument and not play semantics.
It's been a while since I've participated in an EC thread because too often the EC people play with words and mix in worldly wisdom. Concern for correct doctrine gets tossed aside and insulted (which frankly tells me something about their world view).
FYI - that quote wasn't directed at any one in particular. Especially you - I don't always agree with your interpretation of what you read, but I'm confident that you're putting some effort into understanding things. Noone can ask for more than that.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/27/2008 11:55:21 PM
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GroupW
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I finished that a few days ago. Just finished "A generous orthodoxy" a few minutes ago before I hopped online.
PS - that bit about putting forth the effort didn't exactly come out like I intended. Sounded a bit condescending now that I see it again with fresh eyes. Sorry. Not at all what I meant.
PPS - here's a possible reason for that interesting little dynamic that's happening between you and me when we read the same thing but come to opposing conclusions. I think I was somewhat emergent long before the Young Leaders Network folk were out of grade school. I grew out of a very fundamentalist faith, had it completely deconstructed/destructed/decomposed/discombobulated in college and had to put it back together again. When I reconsttructed it, the words that I attach to it are very post modern. The faith is the same, but the words are different, and I bring a rationalistic/philosophical approach to my faith that was never there before.
As a result, I think I got used to seeing old ideas described with new words. There's a lot in Bell that I can see precursors of in C.S Lewis or GK Chesterton or even some of the ancient mystics. I see some of the language Bell uses and it really doesn't freak me out too bad. I think I contextualize it differently and as a result see the good in it that others don't and probably am blind to much of the bad that others see.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/28/2008 12:02:33 AM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 12:49:24 PM
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crankius
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I'll post the positive first.
Where I find Bell to be right on—that pastors should take a day of rest. Exactly right.
Why should a pastor set apart a day to not answer phones and emails and not produce anything? Because God did.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 1:08:17 PM
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crankius
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Bell stretches scripture—which fits with his “Bible is open-ended” thinking. Let me be clear: not all of these are him taking a false stance—some of them are simply a loosey goosey way of applying the passages to fit the context of his writings.
Some examples:
p. 21—He claims John 14:10 is simply Jesus showing the disciples what God is like, but really that passage is Jesus saying that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, literally.
p. 35—He uses “narrow is the way” to mean God taking joy in us living as we were made to live—a focused, beautiful life of joy.
p. 47—He refers to Jesus as a rabbi who said his yoke is easy—meaning, His interpretation of the Torah was easy. However, Jesus didn't come to show us how to live perfectly as Bell states, but instead, Jesus actually fulfills the law in Himself on our behalf. It's a salvific passage, not a "binding and loosing" passage.
p. 50—The binding and loosing passage is misinterpreted.
p. 57—The Counsel in Jerusalem is misrepresented.
p. 86—In describing why the label Christian is bad, he misuses 1 Peter 5:8 and 1 Thess 5:33.
p. 89—He discusses the Anointing at Bethany, yet leaves out that it was Judas who objected to the perfume, that it was Judas who stirred up the dissent, because Judas wanted the money for himself. Bell claims that the disciples didn’t get that He was living in the moment--this is an oversimplification.
p. 119—Jesus stated the way is narrow because Jesus is the only way, not because people fail to look deep inside of themselves as Bell states.
p. 128—He takes John 15:15 to mean that Jesus had learned, like a regular Jewish man would, and had passed on to His disciples all that He had learned. However, that passage is about Jesus as God’s Son passing to the apostles and followers all that the Father has told Him.
p. 132—He believes the “rock” that the church is going to be built upon is the type of people worshiping the Pan god at Caesarea Philippi.
p. 134—He claims Jesus frustration with His disciples was because His disciples didn’t realize how great they were.
p. 139—He can’t find one place in the Bible where we are to identify ourselves as first and foremost sinners. I get what Bell is saying, but I don't think we do any favors by minimizing the fact that we are sinners. Paul claimed he was the chief of sinners.
p. 139—He uses James 3:2 to claim we “all stumble”, yet that passage is specifically speaking of those who teach watching what they say with their tongue.
p. 150—He messes up Matthew 4:17.
Often Bell is making a point, so he confines the meaning of a passage to emphasize his point. It's a technique that I stay away from because too often it leads to sloppy theological understandings.
Anyone who has spent time discussing the Bible with people of other religions understands that such loosey goosey, disrespectful use of Scripture erodes truth. A Mormon can claim the Bible is true and they believe it, but they rely upon such loosey goosey methods.
While Bell embraces an open-ended policy of Scriptural truth, I actually appreciate the preciseness of Scriptural truth in the truths God wants us to know. Basically, I’m one of those people Bell finds irritating.
I guess He would say that I don’t accept his interpretations, and thus I don’t accept him as a valid teacher of the Bible.
< Message edited by crankius -- 8/28/2008 5:54:42 PM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 1:13:05 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankiusWhile Bell embraces an open-ended policy of Scriptural truth, I actually appreciate the preciseness of Scriptural truth in the truths God wants us to know. Basically, I’m one of those people Bell finds irritating.
I find you irritating too. But in a good way. A challenge is always a burr under the saddle. It's uncomfortable, but it motivates!
I'll review those quotes later this evening - FYI, I rather agree on the Pan / Petra link. I think I understand his thought process, and it could be right but it's stretching to the point of doing the splits.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 1:56:35 PM
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selahgirl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
I've only recently seen a portion of one of his videos.
I wondered if anyone knew anything about him and the rest of his theology.
Is he linked with the emerging church?
Does he continue to preach falsely on core essentials? Has he ever? If so, on what exactly and how? And how did he correct, repent, from that?
Thoughts? Comments?
I don't know about his theology, I don't follow his ministry closely. But I have seen several of his videos. They have all brought out Truth from my understanding of the character of God. I haven't run across anything that contradicts the word of God. If someone based all their teaching and ministry on his video's, I think that would lead them to error by their own fault.
His stuff is excellent, but should be only be used for enrichment to a solid teaching/reading/study of Scripture. I find it enriching to biblical truth and my concept of God. I think much of the error of the emerging church is rooted in the apathy and sloth of a generation. We fail to study to show ourselves approved because we're all so busy and stressed and entertained by technology. It is as much the congregations fault as the leaders of the movement. If people demand the Word of God in their churches... leaders will have to minister to that need and passion of the people that they are supposed to be leading.
The key to the success of the emergent church and like movements is that people want a digitized, instantaneous Gospel message. Fast-food quality doesn't matter as long as it's fast and it tickles their taste buds. I understand that concept, I totally get the appeal of it to my flesh...
It's basically a disarming of the people of God. The removal of arms, weaponry, and the right to bear them. It leaves you standing defenseless so the enemy can come in for the kill. I fear for this generation of the church, if there is not a return to hungering for the Word of God, a passion and a fear and a zeal to read it, study it, and embrace it with affection.
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 2:02:54 PM
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crankius
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Also, in much of the margins I have written “me me me”. His theology strikes me as very me-centered instead of God-centered.
Around page 114 he discusses “the relentless pursuit of who God made me to be.”
p. 150 "Somewhere in you is the you whom you were made to be."
His theology on this concept fits in very well with modern Christianity. He is very hung up on the kind of Oprah Christianity that we are to be who we are meant to be, and this is the be all end all—kind of like the Army motto of “be all you can be”.
Christianity is entirely Christ-centered. It’s all about God, and honoring Him and bringing Him glory. We bring Him glory when we listen to the Holy Spirit, when we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh, when we read God’s statutes and write them on our heart, mind, and soul, when we pursue God with all our strength, etc. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. It’s not all about us becoming the ideal we were meant to be.
In fact, repeatedly God chooses the very weakest in life because through their weakness He can show His strength. It’s all about Him.
At the conclusion of “two realms” he states: "The goal isn’t escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to. And God is remaking us into the kind of people who can do this kind of work.” pg. 150
This is so wrong, it’s hard to know where to begin describing how wrong it is. Christ reigns in a kingdom not of this world. The ruler of this world is Satan. It is not our job to make this world a place where God can come—it is our job to bring all glory to God, and through Christ, we are reconciled to God. We are not reconciling God to the world.
Unrelated question: Does anyone know Rob Bell’s stance on hell? I’m still finishing the book so I don’t know if he clarifies by the end.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Rob Bell - 8/28/2008 2:30:04 PM
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GroupW
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I think he clarifies it toward the end, albeit briefly. He does, although I think you'll find him spending more energy thinking about the hell we create for ourselves in this world instead of the one in the next.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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