Christian greed

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Liveloved -> Christian greed (8/21/2008 10:22:01 AM)
In Matthew 23, Jesus gives another stern word to the religious people of His day regarding the way they were living. This word has to do with greed. Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation. (23:14) So I ask, is there greed in your life that needs to be dealt with? The Apostle Paul in IIThessalonians 3:7-9 also speaks to how we are to live. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example. In the community in which we live I see many to be professing the name of Christ yet living as a burden to others. These individuals are having large families at tax payer expense---expecting all of us to pay for their family medical care including dental and vision expenses. The medical community recognizes the hypocrisy. But apparently those who are acting greedily do not. This should not be so. We need to look at ourselves and how we live. Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? We need to hear the Spirit speaking.

Little_1 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 10:43:52 AM)
Liveloved, going by your last thread and this thread, you seem to be very disappointed with certain of your Christian brethren. Do you pray about such injustice? Unless the Holy Spirit speaks through His Word to such as you have mentioned, we are wasting your time and energy merely discussing such? I cannot help but think about the text which says: 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." Liveloved, I do believe you have hit on a very good point but revival begins in the house of God and God's people getting into the position of prayer and confession. Perhaps God is stirring you up to stand in this gap? Perhaps we all need to pay attention to this and stand alongside with you? Does anyone else agree or disagree re: the last sentence in italics or what do we believe about the texts Liveloved has highlighted?

rofaith -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 12:57:21 PM)
Little_1 and Liveloved... I actually struggle with this myself. Especially, with the illegal immigrant problem in the US. They are obviously lawbreakers, essentially taking resources that have been bought and paid for by taxpayers, creating a subclass of less than low paying jobs, taking jobs from others.... and the lists goes on and on. @ first, I jumped on the bandwagon, but after a while I got uncomfortable.... There is injustice and unfairness everywhere. Human gov't can only address so much of it by bringing "domestic tranquility" and an environment where we are free to make choices in the "pursuit of happiness'. The illegal immigrants that are coming into our country are desperate... they have never seen such affluence as they see in our blessed country. They have no idea what it takes or what it took to create it, but are willing to come here and at least participate. In the biblical sense, these are the poor and in some cases the orphaned and widowed. I feel a Christian obligation to give compassion and tolerance to them. The fact that they are illegal and have issues with being obedient to civil law is between them and God. My thinking is though, wrt how God views this, is that they have come from nation states that are in turmoil and overcome with powerful drug cartels etc., I believe God gives grace here, and gives it abundantly. We are blessed in this country beyond anything most countries have. The poorest of the poor in our country are considered wealthy in many Latin America and African countries. We as Christians must give grace since we have been given that same grace. Their sin of being illegal and taking resources etc. is no worse or better wrt God's viewpoint than my sin, little or large, every day. We live in a culture that fosters class envy and puts tension between people groups(essentially an approach that was fostered by Karl Marx in his writings) in order to create division and unrest. We as Christians MUST literally flee from such thinking since it short-circuits our ability to love others as mandated by our Lord Jesus Christ. I've written all of this while @ the same time feeling things similar to liveloved.... it's difficult, but it's God changing my character minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day. I am angry about the situation both personally, politically etc., but, my spiritual life with Christ has to take precedence and I must change and that's only possible through God's power alone. In essence. I have to accept that in God's view, there is no such thing as fair and unfair. It's just about being either loved or unloved, and how we respond. The net-net, is we have God's favor and been given much. To whom much has been given, much is required. It's tough, but, God is changing my thinking and my heart about these issues in real time....peace.

Liveloved -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 1:53:17 PM)
quote: Do you pray about such injustice? Unless the Holy Spirit speaks through His Word to such as you have mentioned, we are wasting your time and energy merely discussing such? Do you tell a pastor he is wasting his time by preaching on Sunday? Or a Bible teacher that he is wasting his time? Or the writers of books? Or magazine articles? When we are commanded to live godly lives are we wasting time and energy by asking others how they are doing? Reminding them of what God says about certain subjects? Are we only to talk about theological subjects in the objective sense and never apply God's truth to our own lives? Are we just to pat each other on the back and tell ourselves how wonderfully we're doing? I don't think so. I think scripture is filled with admonitions about how we are to live and how we are to encourage, edify, and stimulate others to live rightly. And if we understand what those words mean we will know that it is often painful and uncomfortable. Edify is to straighten. Stimulate is to prod or poke. When we do those things people often say 'ouch'. Yet we are told to do this. (Hebrews 10:24, II Peter 1:13 are two such verses.) I gave an example so others could see how scripture needs to be applied to our lives, the decisions we make, the choices we choose, etc. The church needs to rise up, wake up and take seriously the call of Christ. And we who are a part of the church need to encourage others all we can.

Liveloved -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 1:59:31 PM)
Rofaith, This is a question to the Christian community regarding how we are living. It isn't a question of fair or unfair. It is about our living as God commands us to live. If that is not the concern, the loving concern, of the body of Christ, I don't know what is. The illegal immigrant question is a huge one our country is facing. And I am called to love and share the resources God has so generously given to me. The world is expected to live like the world. Christians are called to a different life. My question is just to see how we are doing and to challenge others to think about choices they are making based on God's word.

blue1914 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 2:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved In Matthew 23, Jesus gives another stern word to the religious people of His day regarding the way they were living. This word has to do with greed. Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation. (23:14) So I ask, is there greed in your life that needs to be dealt with? The Apostle Paul in IIThessalonians 3:7-9 also speaks to how we are to live. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example. In the community in which we live I see many to be professing the name of Christ yet living as a burden to others. These individuals are having large families at tax payer expense---expecting all of us to pay for their family medical care including dental and vision expenses. The medical community recognizes the hypocrisy. But apparently those who are acting greedily do not. This should not be so. We need to look at ourselves and how we live. Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? We need to hear the Spirit speaking. Hello Liveloved-is this an area of focus right now for you? Has the Holy Spirit stirred within you an understanding of where you have fallen short in this area? I know for me, He sure has, and it's not really what I would have thought it to be. I guess in so many ways, I'm like the average guy or gal, I feel like I do all right-I go to work, I pay my taxes and make sure that my family is provided for, etc. etc. In general, I was pretty "ok" with where I was and in the natural sense, I guess I still am, but of course the Holy Spirit has different ideas, huh? For me, He really started to spotlight the "unconscious" greed that I fought and dealt with, often without realizing that it was even an issue for me. An example-an earlier poster gave an example about "illegal immigration" and how it's taking resources from Americans, etc. etc. At one point, that really would have sounded about right t o me-my "hard earned" money was going to support those who didn't deserve it, etc. etc. Then some verses similar to the ones you quoted above really started to hit home with me-wow, to HAVE and then to purposely withhold it-even by calling it "lawful", etc. etc.-man, that's really exactly what God in human flesh (Jesus) was talking about, wasn't He? In America, we "cry" for revival, have elaborate praise and worship services in giant churches (and none of that is bad per se, don't get me wrong) as we look at the world and sniff our nose up at their poverty. Oh don't get me wrong-Christians give much more than the general population to worldwide evangelism and missions efforts, some of which include monetary relief, etc. but the REAL question to ask-how often do we see the spirit of the widow's mite-especially in our OWN homes. I know that I was hit right between the eyes with that-that I really cannot honestly say that I have sacrificed anything in my life to ensure that those around the world who have NOTHING can live-oh, I've given out of my excess and that's cool, but I've never INCONVENIENCED myself-given ALL I had to live on (as the widow did) to those who needed it more than me. As the Holy Spirit showed me how this is a form of unconscious greed, wow, what a conviction! I'm still working on turning that one over to Him and allowing Him to change my heart on that one! If you have achieved a measure of victory in that area, wow, I praise the Lord for you and I look forward to your stories to encourage us more and more toward that ideal!

Little_1 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 2:36:01 PM)
quote: Little_1 Do you pray about such injustice? Unless the Holy Spirit speaks through His Word to such as you have mentioned, we are wasting your time and energy merely discussing such? quote: Liveloved Do you tell a pastor he is wasting his time by preaching on Sunday? Or a Bible teacher that he is wasting his time? Or the writers of books? Or magazine articles? Yes - if either have not been prayed over and the Holy Spirit's annointing sought. quote: Liveloved When we are commanded to live godly lives are we wasting time and energy by asking others how they are doing? Reminding them of what God says about certain subjects? Absolutely not but when we are dealing with God's Word - we are dealing with life and death matters and we need the Holy Spirit to annoint and guide us. quote: Liveloved Are we only to talk about theological subjects in the objective sense and never apply God's truth to our own lives? Are we just to pat each other on the back and tell ourselves how wonderfully we're doing? No! [:'(] quote: Liveloved I don't think so. I think scripture is filled with admonitions about how we are to live and how we are to encourage, edify, and stimulate others to live rightly. And if we understand what those words mean we will know that it is often painful and uncomfortable. Edify is to straighten. Stimulate is to prod or poke. When we do those things people often say 'ouch'. Yet we are told to do this. (Hebrews 10:24, II Peter 1:13 are two such verses.) If done so in the power of the Spirit - then yes I totally agree with you. quote: Liveloved I gave an example so others could see how scripture needs to be applied to our lives, the decisions we make, the choices we choose, etc. The church needs to rise up, wake up and take seriously the call of Christ. And we who are a part of the church need to encourage others all we can. I couldn't agree more regarding the fact that we need to encourage one another in this area. In my original post, I did say that I believed you have a very relevant point but you may have missed this part of my post; however, what I was also trying to convey is that it is no use if we tell others about their wrong doing unless we pray beforehand that the Spirit will annoint and guide us. On the day of Pentecost, the Christians were all gathered together in one accord in prayer. Shortly after the Holy Spirit came and they were baptised in the Holy Spirit and went out speaking God's Word and thousands of converts were won as a result. We need this Holy Spirit annointing and filling when we are seeking to win souls or bring backsliders back to God's Truth. On the day of Pentecost, the Christians did not go out in their own strength and neither should we. When you attend a church which has a faithful prayer team and the minister spends much time in prayer before preaching God's Word, there is a Holy Spirit anointing evident during the meeting and afterwards even. It is this Holy Spirit anointing that is going to make the difference between speaking God's Word in our own strength and doing so in God's strength and anointing. We waste our time if we venture out in our own strength. Any great revival has had it's beginning with the Word of God and prayer. There is no separating this fact. Therefore, I almost certainly am not saying that you should not speak God's truth into situations such as your original texts mentions only pray first and ask God's blessing and Holy Spirit anointing is what I was trying to convey. I looked out a good link which explains the benefits of doing such and the following link is in PDF format: link between prayer and preaching I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Liveloved -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 2:50:43 PM)
I find it interesting that 'assumptions' are made when you post this type of thread. Assumptions like my being disappointed with brethren and achieving some measure of success in this area of giving---isn't the topic greed?. Are these assumptions assuming I'm holding myself above others? I'm not going to assume that but as one who has shared openly and honestly on this forum in many threads regarding my own sin, things I have been convicted of, repented for, and my need to be continually open to the Spirit's search light, I am just asking questions that come from my time with the Lord. Yesterday's question included a confession. Are these threads hitting us too close to home? Do we really not want to talk about how we are doing? You're absolutely right, blue1914, that we need to allow God to show us how we're doing in all areas of giving as well. Are we givers or a takers? One of the ways I was challenged in this area of giving was with my 'cash stash'. This is money that I've been given even for a birthday or as payment for something I did or sold. It was money I set aside to spend on something 'special'. The Lord challenged me to see something 'special' in a new way. So years ago, I began to give this money to others as needs presented themselves. For example, a woman at church told me she had unexpected car expenses for repairs and I know this woman has little or no money. So I grabbed the 'cash stash' from my wallet and gave it to her. Most recently it was a woman in my Sunday School class who told me of a grandson who lost his home in the flooding. I gave her some of the 'cash stash' to send to him. I gave some to the missionary who stayed with us recently. These gifts aren't big but maybe several hundred dollars and it is money that I consider to not be mine anymore so it accumulates until the Lord brings the need along my path. Yes, the Lord continues to show me ways of living that cut across my flesh, my 'needs' and to put Him and others in the place that He would have them be.

deliveredarling -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 3:29:20 PM)
quote: Yes, the Lord continues to show me ways of living that cut across my flesh, my 'needs' and to put Him and others in the place that He would have them be. LL, this thought alone is cause for concern. I tried to explain this to you in another thread. What the Lord is telling you, may not be the same message for all of us. The posts here lately from you, while the topic certainly pertains to all Christians, the timing of applicability is not the same for all Christians. Maybe the lord is working on another area for each of us. What is your conviction may not be my conviction and visa vis. People are at different stages with God. It is Him alone that allows one to move to the next level. We can encourage all we want, if it's not time, it's just not time. We have to walk out our own road with Him, to learn what He wants for His purposes.[:)]

Little_1 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 3:30:48 PM)
Liveloved - I am very sorry. I think I have upset you and so I want to apologise. I am sorry if I assumed that you were upset about 'Christian brethren not adhering to Scripture' but this is how your post came across to me in all honesty. I don't see this as being offensive in any way; however, that is not to say someone else (perphaps yourself)wouldn't as it does seem to have caused offence to you (I hope I am not presuming this). If I am - sorry in advance. [>:]

Liveloved -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 3:48:48 PM)
quote: LL, this thought alone is cause for concern. I tried to explain this to you in another thread. What the Lord is telling you, may not be the same message for all of us. The posts here lately from you, while the topic certainly pertains to all Christians, the timing of applicability is not the same for all Christians. Maybe the lord is working on another area for each of us. What is your conviction may not be my conviction and visa vis. People are at different stages with God. It is Him alone that allows one to move to the next level. We can encourage all we want, if it's not time, it's just not time. We have to walk out our own road with Him, to learn what He wants for His purposes. DD, I hear you. I am not expecting others to be anywhere or respond. I am sharing scripture and asking questions. Doesn't your pastor do this? Is he making the same mistake you think I am making? Why is it so concerning to you that I listen and take seriously the words of scripture and then desire to discuss them with others? Isn't that why you are here as well? I see this forum as a place where the body of Christ gathers. The body should be concerned about the things I bring up---they are straight out of scripture, straight from God. These are the very things we should be thinking about, talking about, and doing. So I really don't understand your concern. I'm not assuming any one person needs to respond. I'm not assuming all are in the same place in their walk. But I do believe that what Jesus says needs to be heard by all and heeded. LL

Liveloved -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 3:52:51 PM)
quote: Liveloved - I am very sorry. I think I have upset you and so I want to apologise. I am sorry if I assumed that you were upset about 'Christian brethren not adhering to Scripture' but this is how your post came across to me in all honesty. I don't see this as being offensive in any way; however, that is not to say someone else (perphaps yourself)wouldn't as it does seem to have caused offence to you (I hope I am not presuming this). If I am - sorry in advance. Little_1, You don't need to apologize. I was not offended. I am just sharing scripture and asking questions. What do we think Jesus and Paul and Peter encountered as they shared? Anyway, all's well. [:)] LL

deliveredarling -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 4:08:27 PM)
quote: Why is it so concerning to you that I listen and take seriously the words of scripture and then desire to discuss them with others? Isn't that why you are here as well? I'm hearing an expectation to agree with you. If we don't agree then we aren't "hearing" the Spirit. Sure I want to discuss things, but if I disagree that doesn't mean I/or any of us hear the Spirit any less than you. That's all I'm saying...[:)]

colliefan -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 4:11:25 PM)
One thing the "Great Society" has done is to create government jobs to create a class of people dependant upon the government. In places such as Mexico the level of corruption in government, prevents the free market from operating as it should. God created work as honorable before Him. The media has created class warfare that pits one group against another. The question should be is how to instruct the poor in how to escape the clutches of porverty rather than have government programs that entrap them in its clutches,

ta_mosquito -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 5:01:23 PM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE Please keep this thread on topic. The topic is not Liveloved's attitude or perceived struggles. It is not whether this thread is worthwhile. If you believe it's not worthwhile, then don't post. Simple. Here are some of the questions from the OP. To get back on topic, we can start by giving our answers to these: quote: Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? Thanks! Tricia Forums Moderator Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

Little_1 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 5:13:45 PM)
quote: quote: Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? There are Christians who live off the state because they are lazy. However, there are also some who live off the state for genuine reasons. I know a lot of people who are put off such Christians who can work but don't make any effort to. Do I get annoyed by those Christians who take advantage of the system - "Yes", such upsets me but at the end of the day, I still pray for them to realise that what they are doing is wrong and that they will repent and do the right thing. This is my part of having a knowledge of such and what I can do about it. I could not approach someone about such without praying about it however and would be concerned about a preacher who did not pray about such also before delivering a sermon regarding such.

pstrdebi -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 5:50:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved In Matthew 23, Jesus gives another stern word to the religious people of His day regarding the way they were living. This word has to do with greed. Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation. (23:14) So I ask, is there greed in your life that needs to be dealt with? The Apostle Paul in IIThessalonians 3:7-9 also speaks to how we are to live. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, nor did we eat any-one's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we might not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example. In the community in which we live I see many to be professing the name of Christ yet living as a burden to others. These individuals are having large families at tax payer expense---expecting all of us to pay for their family medical care including dental and vision expenses. The medical community recognizes the hypocrisy. But apparently those who are acting greedily do not. This should not be so. We need to look at ourselves and how we live. Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? We need to hear the Spirit speaking. Wow! Are you living in the US? A valid question... because if you are, I am sure you realize the condition of our economy. Are you saying that a young couple who marries and makes minimum wage can't have a baby simply because the mommy may need to get on County medical? or that the babies in these United States should not be allowed to have WIC or good medical care simply because some higher up decided to give the daddy only 32 hours a week so that they didn't have to give him medical benefits? Let me tell you something... this is the case with my son, who by the way, WORKS HIS BACKSIDE OFF, and by the time he is done paying his exaggerated rent for his little two bedroom house, and pays the billion dollar electric and phone companies their over priced bills, along with all the incidentals like toilet paper and paper towels ( God help them, but they do like those little extravagances) those poor kids barely have two cents to rub together! And guess what... they profess the name of Christ! Again... can we please try to refrain from offending. There are a lot of hard working young Christians... new believers... that would be totally put-off by this thread.

Little_1 -> RE: Christian greed (8/21/2008 6:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi ......my son...... WORKS HIS BACKSIDE OFF, and by the time he is done paying his exaggerated rent for his little two bedroom house, and pays the billion dollar electric and phone companies their over priced bills, along with all the incidentals like toilet paper and paper towels ( God help them, but they do like those little extravagances) those poor kids barely have two cents to rub together! ...... This hurts too because employers oppress hard working individuals by not paying them what they deserve to be paid when sometimes these employers are in a position to pay better wages but greed consumes them. I'm not saying this is the case with this particular employer but such does happen where workers are oppressed by employers in this way and it is wrong and very disheartening for those who are genuinely honest and hard working.

rcjames -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 9:00:12 AM)
"Christian greed" is an oxymoron of great magnitude. Thanks RC

kernsfamily -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 9:23:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Little_1 quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi ......my son...... WORKS HIS BACKSIDE OFF, and by the time he is done paying his exaggerated rent for his little two bedroom house, and pays the billion dollar electric and phone companies their over priced bills, along with all the incidentals like toilet paper and paper towels ( God help them, but they do like those little extravagances) those poor kids barely have two cents to rub together! ...... This hurts too because employers oppress hard working individuals by not paying them what they deserve to be paid when sometimes these employers are in a position to pay better wages but greed consumes them. I'm not saying this is the case with this particular employer but such does happen where workers are oppressed by employers in this way and it is wrong and very disheartening for those who are genuinely honest and hard working. Oppression would be an accurate term ONLY when someone is forced to work under such conditions (sub standard pay, for instance)....here in America, an individual, if he/she feels that they are "underpaid", is free, and entitled, to go and get a better paying job.......and it's their RIGHT to do so.....(that's one of the reasons I voluntarily left my last employer......among other reasons)..... "greed" will cease to consume an employer when he/she is not able to find workers willing to accept the pay that is offered for that particular job. Pay will have to go up....or, the business will cease to exist.

iluvatar -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 9:40:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Little_1 quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi ......my son...... WORKS HIS BACKSIDE OFF, and by the time he is done paying his exaggerated rent for his little two bedroom house, and pays the billion dollar electric and phone companies their over priced bills, along with all the incidentals like toilet paper and paper towels ( God help them, but they do like those little extravagances) those poor kids barely have two cents to rub together! ...... This hurts too because employers oppress hard working individuals by not paying them what they deserve to be paid when sometimes these employers are in a position to pay better wages but greed consumes them. I'm not saying this is the case with this particular employer but such does happen where workers are oppressed by employers in this way and it is wrong and very disheartening for those who are genuinely honest and hard working. Yep - it comes from all angles. It could be, as was already mentioned, lazily living off the government dole, or greedy employers milking their employees for anything they can. It can also manifest itself in other, less obvious ways such as international monetary & trade policies and the environmental impact of our lifestyles. Are we supporting politicians and policies that, while making things cheaper and easier for us, put small third-world farmers out of business, allow toxic computer monitors to be dumped in African landfills, or ignoring the long-term effects of global warming (particularly on poorer, coastal civilizations)? I wouldn't expect most people to know the long-term ramifications of these policies; they're well-disguised by those trying to sell them. But once they are brought to our attention, how do we respond? -Dan.

P31W -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 9:46:42 AM)
quote: We need to look at ourselves and how we live. Are we living as a burden to others? Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children? Do we not see how this too is devouring widows' houses, taking from those with true need, while we profess be different, to be changed, to know the One Who changes men? Do people not believe because of the way you and I live? We need to hear the Spirit speaking. Yep when we made decisions about what we want in this life and expect others to sacrifice inorder to pay for those things it's greed. It does hurt the cause of Christ for people to be self-centered. They are thieves. We as Christians need to speak out loudly against this sin. It's rampant in some churches and areas. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. 14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. 1 Timothy 5:3-16 3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 9 No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, 10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. 11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. 16 If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need

iluvatar -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 9:48:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kernsfamily quote: ORIGINAL: Little_1 quote: ORIGINAL: pstrdebi ......my son...... WORKS HIS BACKSIDE OFF, and by the time he is done paying his exaggerated rent for his little two bedroom house, and pays the billion dollar electric and phone companies their over priced bills, along with all the incidentals like toilet paper and paper towels ( God help them, but they do like those little extravagances) those poor kids barely have two cents to rub together! ...... This hurts too because employers oppress hard working individuals by not paying them what they deserve to be paid when sometimes these employers are in a position to pay better wages but greed consumes them. I'm not saying this is the case with this particular employer but such does happen where workers are oppressed by employers in this way and it is wrong and very disheartening for those who are genuinely honest and hard working. Oppression would be an accurate term ONLY when someone is forced to work under such conditions (sub standard pay, for instance)....here in America, an individual, if he/she feels that they are "underpaid", is free, and entitled, to go and get a better paying job.......and it's their RIGHT to do so.....(that's one of the reasons I voluntarily left my last employer......among other reasons)..... "greed" will cease to consume an employer when he/she is not able to find workers willing to accept the pay that is offered for that particular job. Pay will have to go up....or, the business will cease to exist. I don't agree that "oppression" is the right word, "exploit" or "take advantage of" might be better. Yes, everybody has a right to go try to find a better job, but those without many marketable skills are at a significant disadvantage. As a skilled professional, you have a certain amount of leverage when negotiating with employers. Janitors and cashiers don't have that leverage. I'm not going to argue that unskilled laborers should be earning the salary of an art director, but with the increased globalization of corporations and their constant push towards financial efficiency (and in some cases, their reliance on tax breaks for solvency), it's often those at the bottom who get squeezed the most. Where do you go to get away from it if everybody's doing it or nobody else is hiring? This can even be extended back to our own lives as consumers - at first, we may not know about a particular company's business practices. But when we do, and we see that they're operating unethically, do we patronize a different store or are we more concerned with saving $0.25 on toothpaste? -Dan.

Rivermoon -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 10:03:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Liveloved Rofaith, This is a question to the Christian community regarding how we are living. It isn't a question of fair or unfair. It is about our living as God commands us to live. If that is not the concern, the loving concern, of the body of Christ, I don't know what is. The illegal immigrant question is a huge one our country is facing. And I am called to love and share the resources God has so generously given to me. The world is expected to live like the world. Christians are called to a different life. My question is just to see how we are doing and to challenge others to think about choices they are making based on God's word. To be honest with you, how you feel is totally valid. But at the same time, as a Christian and a human being, you have to accept the reality and the fact that we have limitations. We want the world to be better, we want the Christians to be Christ-like, deep in our hearts. But the reality is it is far from the ideal. Therefore what is said in Reinhold Niebuhr's Serenity Prayer is what I need to keep reminding myself what is in my control, what is not. I want to revive the broken world as if I was the the Savior, Christ. But I am not. There'll definitely something you can do to serve God in His plan. Do it without complaints (about the stuff you have no control of), as the attitude God wants us to have is, leave those we don't have control to Him. It's His job, not ours. Is it easy to act in this way? Absolutely not. But that's the way how we can work with our Lord side by side, without stepping in His way to hinder Him bringing the miracle to the impossibles (in our eyes). I truly hope you'll find comfort and peace eventually in the Lord. Is it easy? It may not, but that's how our Lord wants us to get close to Him to ask and seek. :-)

P31W -> RE: Christian greed (8/22/2008 10:28:41 AM)
quote: Are you saying that a young couple who marries and makes minimum wage can't have a baby simply because the mommy may need to get on County medical? Well your son "proved' that they can certainly have one. But was it the right choice for them to make knowing they could not provide for the baby and the responsibility would fall on the backs of others. It appears to me that when the OP asked this question " Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children?" your reply at least on behalf of your Adult (not kid) son and adult dil is yes. Now if you don't think some of us don't find that offensive that you believe your Adult Son and Adult DIL should decide to have "us" provide for their choice to start a family you are incorrect in your assumption.

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