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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/24/2008 4:39:39 PM
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zoebob
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Most of our shorts are past our finger tips here. It's nice that they are easy to find long. The pair I'm wearing now comes halfway between the top of my knees and my fingertips: about 3 inches each direction
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/24/2008 5:40:57 PM
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LifeisGalatians220
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A young couple we knew were fresh on the mission field in Papua New Guinea, with their two babies, and the wife emailed us that she couldn't figure out why she was being politely "evaded" by the local women. It turned out that her shorts were making the women uncomfortable, because a woman's legs are considered extremely provocative to the men of that culture. She had been uncomfortable with the more revealing tops they wore. When all this came out they all had a good laugh because they realized it was their concern for their husband's heart that was truly at the core of their concern. My friend adapted herself quickly to their culture and she loved the beautiful sarongs that were given to her.
I love hearing and reading the testimonies of women who come in to a church and are welcomed "as is". We were blessed with that. I know that where the word of God is read, and the Spirit of the Lord is present, God is faithful to change the heart, and even the hemline, as He sees fit and in His own time. Thank You Jesus!!!
Blessings,
Melanie
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 9:04:43 AM
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momma_bee
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3? What are you thinking? I have enough holes in my head already, I can't afford to have any more leaking out... 
Poppa and I have talked about this a few times. He said that, generally speaking, girls who advertise get attention because of what they show, and girls who hide things are interesting because they are a challenge. In other words, if a guy is going to think that way, he just is, regardless of my skirt, jeans, or coveralls.
I still avoid showy things. Nothing low, high or off my shoulder. I still think I look good and Poppa claims I turn heads (of course, he get's paid to say that). But, I'm unattainable because I am unavailable. It is what I have to say and the fact that my actions support my claims.
We are struggling now with DeeDee because she has blossomed already. She and I can share shirts (and underpinnings - so unfair) and she is 11. So, the things that match her taste and maturity level are not suited to her body type. The items that come in her size are intended for an older girl to wear. Our rule of thumb is if you can't wear it to school, we aren't buying it - so shorts are below fingertip length except for basketball shorts.
I figure it is like appetizers at the resturant. If you are hungry, they peak your interest in the main course. Sometimes there is more than enough on the plate to leave you satisfied so you don't want dinner. But, if you just ate, they really don't make a difference at all. And, if you aren't planning on serving dinner, why whet someones appetite.
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 10:16:27 AM
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HisCovenant
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I've always thought not modest=sexually provocative, but after reading this thread and checking to see if what some of you said lined up with the Bible I find that my idea isn't perfectly right. It is wrong, but modesty is so much more than that. It's a heart issue, to be sure. But it's also about not being disgraceful on the outside, which means that one's heart can be right but one can still dress immodestly. The missionary example given by Melanie showed what I mean well.
quote:
A modest person does not call undo attention to herself is the quote that I think sums up best what I have learned. A modest person is someone who society couldn't say a word about their dress because they are right down the middle- not too flashy, not too provocative, not too slumpy, not wearing man's clothing, not wearing anything that draws undo attention.
All that is still pretty subjective, so I have thought of some questions and examples that may help me understand further what is immodest in our society. Please know that I am not trying to be offensive by these examples but am trying to get clarification.
Who sets what's appropriate? Does immodesty change among different groups of people? What do we do if norms are split equally among society?
Examples
- If a lady has her head covered in a worship service where that is the norm she would not be immodest. What if she went to another church service where she was the only one covered? And what about the time she is out on the street where she will get stared at because hardly anyone covers? I understand if a woman believed that not covering was a sin that she would follow God and ignore man's idea of disgrace, but for the purpose of this example, let's asume that it is a conviction of that woman wanting to show humility and not a sin to go without.
- Pajamas are for wearing around the house and to bed. If a woman inappropriately wears them out of the house even if they are not provocative, is she immodest?
- If a lady would be deemed gaudy, is she immodest? Let's say she has dyed her hair a color that doesn't exist in nature (I'm seeing a horrid red or blonde in my mind), has a ring on every finger, and has flashy but not sexy clothing.
- If a lady clothing that was saggy and baggy and dull, would she be immodest by being on the opposite extreme of the norm? My thought here is that modest= being middle of the road, and sloppy is not middle of the road but draws negative attention.
- If two ladies show up wearing the same modest outfit <gasp> but one outfit is an unpopular, bright color that draws attention to her and one is a sedate color that goes with the norm... is the lady in the bright color immodest?
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 12:13:38 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
If a lady has her head covered in a worship service where that is the norm she would not be immodest. What if she went to another church service where she was the only one covered? And what about the time she is out on the street where she will get stared at because hardly anyone covers? I understand if a woman believed that not covering was a sin that she would follow God and ignore man's idea of disgrace, but for the purpose of this example, let's asume that it is a conviction of that woman wanting to show humility and not a sin to go without.
I know two Muslim sisters who uncovered their heads when in America because they felt that they were drawing to much attention to themselves. Now, in a post 9-11 world it may not be wise for a young woman to advertise the fact that she is Muslim, but I think they also didn't like people staring at them because of their head covering. In their home country they do cover.
In all other respects they are very modest. They do wear pants, but nothing tight, and their shirts are always long enough to cover the rear end, sort of a westernized Salwar Kameez style. They never go sleeveless and the necklines are high.
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 12:20:50 PM
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HisCovenant
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I can see how that would work.
I was thinking more of a woman covering her head in western culture manner that would stick out, but not be foreign, such as with a scarf, a hat (elaborate or plain,) or a handkerchief style covering (I'm not trying to be disrespectful by calling it that, but am not sure of the name of what I have seen. I'm up for education if anyone knows what I mean. )
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 1:50:55 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
If a lady has her head covered in a worship service where that is the norm she would not be immodest. What if she went to another church service where she was the only one covered?
I am usually the only one covered, wherever I go. I have had *one* instance where it drew attention in a negative way. Most people are mildly curious and then get over it. Very few even take a second look.
In our church, there are a few old school ladies who wear hats, but none with obviously religious coverings. Again, I've had *one* person show any interest in my covering, and she was asking because she remembered wearing "doilies" in her church as a child. People got used to my way of dressing quickly. What they *can't* get over is me having 3 children and not being "done". That is what gets the commentary, attention, and I imagine, the gossip. Random people walk up to me and loudly ask "So, are you pregnant AGAIN yet?". That, and babywearing. I don't do that anymore in church because the one time I walked into the sanctuary with my baby in a pouch sling, as I walked by everyone literally turned their heads to stare and there was this wave of whispers as I passed. 
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 2:00:14 PM
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HisCovenant
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I never would have thought of baby wearing as a modesty issue!!
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 2:36:43 PM
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cynthia
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I don't think we should be uptight about offending people. We should dress in a way that we are not displaying ourselves and leave it at that. Baby wearing isn't about modesty. It is about convenience and mothering (or parenting, as some men wear their babies too). If someone has a problem with that, it's a personal problem and I'd not let it bother me. Just because there is a wave of whispers doesn't there is anything wrong with what you are doing.
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 2:58:08 PM
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HisCovenant
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Cynthia- I guess your comments get to the heart of my questions... At what point are the social norms in what we wear to be ignored for what we know to be wise? We can't please everyone. In fact, there will always be someone who disapproves- probably even a segment of society and not just an individual There are times when ignoring social norms is simply rebellious and ignorant, not wise. You know me- I love to have everything put into a black and white and can't stand gray questions like this!!
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/25/2008 3:06:02 PM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
I love to have everything put into a black and white and can't stand gray questions like this!!
In all that we do, we are to seek the Lord and do what He lays upon our hearts.
Personally I think if Maggie walked into our church as was given a hard time, I'd ask her to sit with us. She's not trying to draw attention to herself, she just trying to do what is on her heart. It's not the same as what is on my heart, but that's because we are all different. We have to leave room for the grace of God.
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My husband and I have a motto:
We are the leader. We are one.
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/26/2008 8:15:31 AM
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momma_bee
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I was thinking this morning - does certain clothing (or behavior) equal vanity?
I look good in the dress I have on today. The color compliments my hair and skin tone. The cut de-emphasis' my weak spot figurewise. The hem is below the knee, but above my calves, which look ok when I am wearing heels. My hose hides the fact that I haven't shaved my legs in a while. The sleeves are to the elbow and since the blouse buttons, it is cut high enough there is no chance of looking down the front. I'm wearing my slip too. I have been known to skip that because I don't think.
So, by my description, modest cut / style. But I think I look good in it. My hubby came to work today (long story) and I walked out wearing my heels, which he did not see this morning because I change shoes. My first thought when I came around the guard house was that I was glad that he would see me 'looking good.'
I then walked into a male dominated office to pick up work and my only clothing related thought is that I have to use tip-toes to go up their steps today. I went to professional mode.
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/26/2008 9:17:51 AM
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McGuinessMagee
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quote:
She and I can share shirts (and underpinnings - so unfair) and she is 11.
MBee, I wish I couldn't feel your pain. T-shirts which fit X length-wise are too low at the front, dresses which fit are mostly way too old, even shoes we have the age-appropriate conversation every time we go shopping (we just bought her a pair of Size 9 Men's Sneakers!!!). And she's had curves for a few years now.
I keep telling myself that I'm not old enough for her to be that grown up.
quote:
Let's say she has dyed her hair a color that doesn't exist in nature (I'm seeing a horrid red or blonde in my mind)
LOL, that would be me right now. I have had the same coloured hair since I was born (occasionally with a few blonde foils). Last weekend I decided I wanted to try something different, so I had chocolate and copper foils put in. The copper is VERY bright, made even more so by the deep chocolate foil behind each copper one. I love it and so does dh. And I'm sure there are some who would consider it immodest. I just consider it a bit of fun which will grow out over time.
But then the question would be, when I work with women who have purple highlights, all over bright, bright red dyes, lilac dyed hair etc, how far would the definition go? Is the hair immodest because it's not natural and how God designed it or because it stands out?
(BTW, I'm not offended, just running with the thought which was thrown out there - just want to make that clear so that no-one [hopefully] gets hurt feelings or thinks I have them).
I like to dress up for work. I think that when you work in an office, you should. Most of the people I work with do not dress up to quite the extent I do. I will wear a suit, whereas most others in the office will wear dress pants and a jumper. Does that make me immodest because I prefer to dress smartly, knowing I am the first face many of our clients see after the reception desk and that I'm the basis on which they assess our company?
If I didn't hold the position I do and still dressed more smartly than others in my office, would that make a difference to the modesty issue?
Kylie 
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When joy was stripped away, pain was the friend who convinced me I was still alive, but when sorrow left me empty none remained to tell me I was dead
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/26/2008 9:35:38 AM
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momma_bee
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And, would she wear that skirt to the store to pick up milk?
Or, if she was seen, would folks assume she was a dancer, or of loose morals?
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 8/26/2008 1:27:37 PM
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HisCovenant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McGuinessMagee
But then the question would be, when I work with women who have purple highlights, all over bright, bright red dyes, lilac dyed hair etc, how far would the definition go? Is the hair immodest because it's not natural and how God designed it or because it stands out?
Thanks for not taking offense!! I was trying to think of real life examples of women not fitting the norm that didn't have to do with being sexually provocative.
IMO, it's not the not being 100% natural thing I think could be classified as immodest. If that was a factor, I think we'd have to say that all women who wear make-up or synthetic clothing were immodest. I'm not a fan of synthetic clothing, but neither one of those things seem immodest to me... I do like make-up, though, so I may just be denying that I have something to work on. It's a bunch easier to point fingers at others than to say that what seems normal to me is immodest!! Of course, to a certain extent I think what I do is normal and modest, just like everyone else believes their way is right.
When I made the remark about hair dye, I was thinking of a woman not fitting in with the norm and just trying to describe a gaudy woman who was characterized by her abmormality (Dolly Parton wannabe gone wrong); hair dye was just one piece of the example in my mind. I guess it would be like a lady who had a one-time wardrobe malfunction (shirt comes unbuttoned accidently, forget to wear a slip, VPL) vs a lady who consistantly wore clothing that was provocative (no slip ever, sexy underwear always clearly outlined by clothing, etc.) I guess I'm assuming that we're discussing being characterized by immodesty instead of having an immodest moment.
Back to the hair dye example- Let's say a segment of society considers it normal to dye your hair a certan way, whether that's in a gaudy manner or goth type thing. However, that person isn't always going to be in that society. Let's say the goth (black hair with a violet stripe) goes to a bridal shower or Dolly Parton wannabe goes to the metropolis where other women are dressed in a very different style. In both examples, the lady sticks out by her looks.
Where does the idea of modesty begin and end? Who gets to say what normal is... the society you are around the most? Or does it change? Do we have to tone ourselves to whatever society we are going to be in at the moment? And at what point does personal conviction end (whether that be the right to dye your hair or the choice to wear a baby) and you become disobedient to the command to be modest even though your conviction isn't wrong?
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-HisCovenant/ Zipporah
My friends call me Zippy!
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RE: Clothing = Modesty??? - 9/2/2008 9:20:08 PM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Where does the idea of modesty begin and end? Modesty begins and ends with what are your motives? do you make the choices you make in order to draw attention to yourself? Or are they based on something deeper? quote:
Who gets to say what normal is... the society you are around the most? Or does it change? Do we have to tone ourselves to whatever society we are going to be in at the moment? Normal is an evil word....lol..there is no such thing as normal. What should potentially define us is knowing the limits of the society we are in...are our choices immodestly offensive to that culture....or are the offenses because we are modest? Gentle modesty CAN cause offense...but it should not be abandoned....so carefully evaluate wht culture and adjust what you can. quote:
And at what point does personal conviction end (whether that be the right to dye your hair or the choice to wear a baby) and you become disobedient to the command to be modest even though your conviction isn't wrong?
IF your personal choices literally cause someone else to stumble....and you are aware that you are being a stumbling block....that is when you need to hit the floor in prayer and really seek what God wants from you...not what you think is okay, or what is convenient for you.
For example...if a man KNOWS that his wearing a suit causes women in his bible study group to get stirred sexually and may make them think lustful thoughts...he would be WRONG to continue to wear a suit in that situation, even if that were his personal preference/conviction. (If it is a real CONVICTION as opposed to preference...he should perhaps seek out a group where it is not an issue).
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my soldier! 
I thought the reaction was beyond bizarre. 
