What or who is a victim? (Full Version)

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bluestone -> What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 9:14:01 PM)

We hear a lot these days about some people having a "Victim" mentality.
Playing the "Victim"

Seems as though being a victim is something to be ashamed of, or something someone uses to get their way, according to some of the harsher voices out there.

If you are robbed, you are a victim. Not your fault.
If you are raped, you are a victim, not your fault.

If you are robbing someone and they pull out a gun and shoot you, my opinion is that you are NOT a victim.

What is a victim, and how do we distinguish between the real thing and the fakers?

As Christians, how do we keep from becoming hard hearted and not having sympathy and concerns for victims?



earthless -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 10:09:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

If you are robbing someone and they pull out a gun and shoot you, my opinion is that you are NOT a victim.


Yet this is how the majority of the media (radio, print, TV, etc..) make it out to be. A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

What is a victim, and how do we distinguish between the real thing and the fakers?


Common sense helps to distinguish them easily - but a lot of people lack that even.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

As Christians, how do we keep from becoming hard hearted and not having sympathy and concerns for victims?


Easy. Have it for real victims, not fakers and scammers.



SonInMe1 -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 10:29:02 PM)

Its sad that we have to have this conversation. Who is a victim?

Do drugs, knock up your internet hunny, and can't get any job more than minimum wage? You are not a victim.

Walk down the street and get hit by a drunk driver...you are a victim.

I mean...its really that simple isn't it?



LCannon -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 10:45:53 PM)

Assuming 'the victim' is at some disadvantage in domination power struggle is usually a fair assessment. However, when the roles are reversed, the 'victim' now having a new found power, has an extra responsibility to exercise his appropriately. Absolute power can corrupt equally well.



MrFribbles -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 10:50:53 PM)

quote:

A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."


I know there's already a thread on racial issues. I suggest comments like this one be directed there. I understand the example you are trying to make, but the way you present it, to me, suggests a level of prejudice in your take on the situation.


As for the OP,
I think there are more individual circumstances to consider with each unique situation to make any blanket statements. People are responsible for their sins, obviously, but sometimes the "genuine" victim played some role in getting themselves targeted. That's no excuse for those who victimize, but it does make the waters a bit more muddled in this discussion.



bluestone -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 10:56:28 PM)

Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish. Suppose a drug addict lies down to sleep on the side of the road. Adrunk driver swerving about hits him...is he a victim, or was he not a victim because he chose to be high AND lie down beside a road?



earthless -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:02:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."


I know there's already a thread on racial issues. I suggest comments like this one be directed there. I understand the example you are trying to make, but the way you present it, to me, suggests a level of prejudice in your take on the situation.


It's a real live example that occurs in major cities in the U.S. every single day. I have the background (if you know what I mean) to be able to speak about such things without the worry of prejudice being thrown.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:07:33 PM)

quote:

Yet this is how the majority of the media (radio, print, TV, etc..) make it out to be. A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."


Sometimes it's not that simple. I understand that cops have to do something to stop/catch people, but, IMO, what they do sometimes does not equal the wrong. If someone does something wrong and they surrender willingly, but the cops beat the person anyway...because that person who was doing wrong did the wrong, the cops just get to beat him like that when he admitted guilt and awaits some other punishment that was actually lawful? These reverends do seem disillusioned sometimes, and most of the time cops have to stop the threat by killing... but just because a person does something wrong doesn't mean they actually get the kind of punishment they deserve from the immediate police present. In some cases, I do think the victim is the person who committed the wrong, although they were also the criminal. It depends on the situation.



KuKu -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:14:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Do drugs, knock up your internet hunny, and can't get any job more than minimum wage? You are not a victim.

If you mean all these traits in one person, then I agree, under most circumstances.

This is precisely why it is so hard to define sometimes... If these are different people, then I don't so much agree.

I actually was on oxycontin and it made me feel 'very different'. Fortunately, it was not a feeling I enjoyed and stopped taking it early. Had it been a 'good' feeling however (no pain, no stress) it could have gone differently. And that was with medical care...I know someone taking vicodin several times a day, under a prescription. If he ends up needing the drug, by following the prescription, how exactly is he to blame?

I am in a min. wage job because my job history (out of country as a missionary) didn't open any 'real' doors... so I don't cry victim, but I'd sure like a job that actually paid something, and I'm not sure how it's my fault that this is what I ended up with. I guess maybe I should have stayed in the US and developed a job history rather than spend years on the field in His service?



SonInMe1 -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:23:01 PM)

quote:

I guess maybe I should have stayed in the US and developed a job history rather than spend years on the field in His service?


I guess we differ on what sacrifice is.

Its not a sacrifice to act irresponsibly and to reap the rewards of that.

It is a blessing to sacrifice for the Lord and to reap the benfits from that, though they might not be financial. You, I am sure would agree, that you had many blessings serving the Lord in the fashion you chose.

...and you seperated the circumstances, I did not. I see this all the time...the person who did not prepare themselves for a future and even did things to derail their future and then blame someone else why they don't have a good job. Countless debates on the minimum wage have been fought over this exact circumstance....the ill prepared employee expecting a living weage just by showing up, sometimes, sober and doing as little work as possible.

I see this EVERY day.



KuKu -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:24:45 PM)

Thank you for clarifying- and I do agree when the circumstances are combined, that is most often choice, not becoming a victim of someone else's choice.



SonInMe1 -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/23/2008 11:26:06 PM)

[:D]



deliveredarling -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/24/2008 6:34:02 AM)

There is a difference between a true victim and a victim mentality.

A true victim is someone who has been wronged.

A victim mentality is a choice a person makes to remain the one harmed, by manufacturing self pity. Choosing to remain in a circumstance and cry woe is me, rather than rising above and moving forward.



zamdad -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/24/2008 12:37:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Its sad that we have to have this conversation. Who is a victim?

Do drugs, knock up your internet hunny, and can't get any job more than minimum wage? You are not a victim.

Walk down the street and get hit by a drunk driver...you are a victim.

I mean...its really that simple isn't it?


If only it really were that simple anymore. As a result of my professional experience, I've witnessed far too many develop the victim mindset. As someone who used to write pre-sentence reports for the court I've had to interview many victims to get their take on the crime committed and note their input with regard to their desires on the punishment of the offender.

When I first began my career I wrote a report on a man who pled guilty to attempted murder as he stabbed his ex-wife. When interviewng him he began telling me how awful she was. How she was sleeping with his buddies, was stealing from her employer and his employer, how she was demanding of hm to leave work and tend to her desires, etc. The stabbing happened as a result of her calling him to come home (inviolation of a court order) so they could make up. When he arrived, she called 911. He got scared, they struggled, he grabbed a knife and stabbed her.

I then interviewed her. I entered the interview thinking she is the victim, I can't put any stock in the evil things he said about her. As the interview progressed, it became crystal clear that the defendant's assessment of things was right. She had called him over in violation of the court order, she was sleeping with his buddies, and she wanted the system to pay her large amounts of restitution. She was, in her mind, entitled to money for her pain and sufferng.

IN another case I witnessed a man who'd been convicted of a sex crime make a radical transformation. His thinking began to change, his appearance changed. He said he had found Christ. For a little over a year after he found Christ, myself and those working with him could see fruit. As he progressed we felt comfortable with beginning the process of family reunification.

The family had not been involved in the treatment process with him. They had been undergoing their own treatment. As the reunification began to unfold we could see the fruit beginning to wilt. The man explained that the wife and the daughters were in a victim mindset and that they were manipulating him and anyone/everyone else they could to get "stuff." It became apparent that the family had learned to be professional victims.

It feels like I could write a book on the topic with the experience I've had thus far. But, the OP asks a question that needs to be examined further. I thkni we really need to be discerning when we, the church, are met with needs where victim status is imposed. We need to be able to ask some difficult questions and to be willing to walk along side someone offering guidance to help change thinking to prevent action that takes advantage of others charity.



MrFribbles -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/24/2008 3:44:59 PM)

I saw this story on Yahoo, and thought it might bear in on this conversation a little bit. Any thoughts?
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080822-nigerian-official-greedy-marks-as-guilty-as-419-scammers.html



earthless -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/24/2008 7:14:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

Yet this is how the majority of the media (radio, print, TV, etc..) make it out to be. A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."


Sometimes it's not that simple. I understand that cops have to do something to stop/catch people, but, IMO, what they do sometimes does not equal the wrong. If someone does something wrong and they surrender willingly, but the cops beat the person anyway...because that person who was doing wrong did the wrong, the cops just get to beat him like that when he admitted guilt and awaits some other punishment that was actually lawful? These reverends do seem disillusioned sometimes, and most of the time cops have to stop the threat by killing... but just because a person does something wrong doesn't mean they actually get the kind of punishment they deserve from the immediate police present. In some cases, I do think the victim is the person who committed the wrong, although they were also the criminal. It depends on the situation.


That is not what I was talking about.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/24/2008 7:40:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

Yet this is how the majority of the media (radio, print, TV, etc..) make it out to be. A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..."


Sometimes it's not that simple. I understand that cops have to do something to stop/catch people, but, IMO, what they do sometimes does not equal the wrong. If someone does something wrong and they surrender willingly, but the cops beat the person anyway...because that person who was doing wrong did the wrong, the cops just get to beat him like that when he admitted guilt and awaits some other punishment that was actually lawful? These reverends do seem disillusioned sometimes, and most of the time cops have to stop the threat by killing... but just because a person does something wrong doesn't mean they actually get the kind of punishment they deserve from the immediate police present. In some cases, I do think the victim is the person who committed the wrong, although they were also the criminal. It depends on the situation.


That is not what I was talking about.


I never said it was; I was presenting some different.



doinkdom -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/26/2008 11:46:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

There is a difference between a true victim and a victim mentality.

A true victim is someone who has been wronged.

A victim mentality is a choice a person makes to remain the one harmed, by manufacturing self pity. Choosing to remain in a circumstance and cry woe is me, rather than rising above and moving forward.


amen sister [sm=hug.gif]



WesP -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/26/2008 2:39:52 PM)

I would venture to say that we can look at this in only 2 ways. Either every single person is a victim, or no one is a victim. The bad things that happen are a result of a fallen world, so all of us have experience with bad things happening. Do you feel victimized, or do you feel sad that bad things happen? I submit that none of us should call ourselves victims. We can mourn and pray for God's protection and mercy, or we can succumb to self-pity. Just a thought!



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/27/2008 9:33:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Yet this is how the majority of the media (radio, print, TV, etc..) make it out to be. A gang banger points a gun at a cop and gets shot dead. The "reverends" and the good for nothing community cry out injustice and racism, demanding to know why the cop didn't just tackle the offender or "shoot 'em in da legs..." [quote}

You must be watching the news in Chicago. this is what happens. A common reaction when the teenager/gunman gets shot, the family members of this gunman all exclaim ""he's a good boy, he'd never do that!"

now, when i watch the news, i am having to make the decision about whether the cops did actually shoot the guy in self defense/lawfully, or are these family members a victim of police brutality? IN Chicago, we have citizens saying the cops are excessively mean to people of color, meanwhile the police are saying that is not true. if you were truly non-biased you would not know who to believe.



earthless -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/28/2008 8:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

now, when i watch the news, i am having to make the decision about whether the cops did actually shoot the guy in self defense/lawfully, or are these family members a victim of police brutality? IN Chicago, we have citizens saying the cops are excessively mean to people of color, meanwhile the police are saying that is not true. if you were truly non-biased you would not know who to believe.


A person (be him white, black, brown, purple, green) pointing a gun at an officer is going to nearly always net the same result - a dead offender.

The gang banger is not a victim.



zamdad -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/28/2008 12:10:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

now, when i watch the news, i am having to make the decision about whether the cops did actually shoot the guy in self defense/lawfully, or are these family members a victim of police brutality? IN Chicago, we have citizens saying the cops are excessively mean to people of color, meanwhile the police are saying that is not true. if you were truly non-biased you would not know who to believe.


A person (be him white, black, brown, purple, green) pointing a gun at an officer is going to nearly always net the same result - a dead offender.

The gang banger is not a victim.


It's interesting that most folks get their opinions on any given issue from what they see, hear and read on the news. The news media tends to like to sensationalize everything, appealing to our emotions. The news media doesn't report the whole story. They frequently don't know all the details of what led up to a shooting. It's easy for them, however, to document the plight of the grieving family and the community activists who seek power from victimhood by rallying the troops for "the poor victim."

Like earthless, I have seen it far too many times. Some thug gets himself into a situation in whic the police have to respond. Instead of complying with police directives the thug decides to fight and winds up losing. The thugs family come out of the woodwork saying how Joe Thug i a good boy and would never do something to get himself on the wrong end of the justice system. Either the family doesn't really know Joe Thug or they are seeking to gain money, power, status, etc as a result of the attention Joe Thug brought upon himself and his family/community.



bluestone -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/28/2008 12:59:29 PM)

Locally a man was electricuted last year attemping to steal copper wiring[8|]
His family is now suing the company whose property he broke into to steal from.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/28/2008 2:04:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

now, when i watch the news, i am having to make the decision about whether the cops did actually shoot the guy in self defense/lawfully, or are these family members a victim of police brutality? IN Chicago, we have citizens saying the cops are excessively mean to people of color, meanwhile the police are saying that is not true. if you were truly non-biased you would not know who to believe.


A person (be him white, black, brown, purple, green) pointing a gun at an officer is going to nearly always net the same result - a dead offender.

The gang banger is not a victim.


right, but to the mother of that gang banger, "my son would never do that". she does not think of him as a gang banger even if he is.

A recent news article wrote about a young girl that was killed when she wat at her dad's house visiting on the south side. (her home was in a northwest suburb). Anyhoo, the little girl was walking home from nearby friends house down the street - the time was approx 11:00 pm. weekday. the girl was then a victim of a drive by shooting. The girl was really cute and it was a shame she died, however, she should not have been out at 11:00 on a weeknight walking alone.

when i was a kid, we had to come into the house when the street lights came on, if that was 6:30 p.m. we had to come in the house for the night!



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: What or who is a victim? (8/28/2008 2:05:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Locally a man was electricuted last year attemping to steal copper wiring[8|]
His family is now suing the company whose property he broke into to steal from.


i totally believe this. just like the story about the robber who injured himself trying to break into the lady's house, and he sues AND WINS!!! this is true.



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