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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 3:13:20 PM
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drmark
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Are you asking about the legal, moral, or biblical definition of justice regarding this scenario?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 3:18:12 PM
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Qtman
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JMHO but had the daughter been convicted and imprisoned would have been a gross injustice. Just the same as if some other party ahd been arrested and convicted for a crime committed by another.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 3:24:30 PM
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drmark
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The scenario does not state that the innocent daughter would be imprisoned for her mother's crime, only that she would serve the corresponding sentence. If the sentence were community service and the daughter performed far above her mother's expected capability, would that be just or injust?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 3:31:46 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The scenario does not state that the innocent daughter would be imprisoned for her mother's crime, only that she would serve the corresponding sentence. If the sentence were community service and the daughter performed far above her mother's expected capability, would that be just or injust?
The OP said the daughter confessed to a crime she did not commit. It does not matter what the sentence. If the daughter did not commit the crime then the true criminal went free. Speaking as a law enforcement officer (Supervisor) this would not constitute justice.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 3:46:08 PM
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drmark
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Well, that would be the legal definition of justice, wouldn't it. I still think a strong case could be made for an ethical definition leading to a different conclusion.
quote:
It does not matter what the sentence. Is the purpose of the sentence always and only punitive? I don't think so!
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:04:15 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Well, that would be the legal definition of justice, wouldn't it. I still think a strong case could be made for an ethical definition leading to a different conclusion.
quote:
It does not matter what the sentence. Is the purpose of the sentence always and only punitive? I don't think so!
Well I'm sorry but being locked up, or sentenced to some other form, is not a reward. Of course its punishment.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:14:59 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
The scenario does not state that the innocent daughter would be imprisoned for her mother's crime, only that she would serve the corresponding sentence. If the sentence were community service and the daughter performed far above her mother's expected capability, would that be just or injust?
If it's the same program I think it is, the mother killed a cab driver with a hatpin when she recognized him as a the who massacred the rest of their family and others in a foreign country (then escaped to the US under an assumed identity).
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:28:59 PM
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Qtman
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Let me clarify my response to Drmark.
In our court system there are criminal trials and civil trials. In a civil trial there is or can be both punitive and compensatory damages awarded. For example some one is sued for a civil rights violation. The jury can award compensatory damages. These are to compensate the plantif for what they lossed. It it actions of the defendent were extreme enough the jury may decide they should also be punished and award punitive damages. These are strictly a punishment in hopes it will persuade the defendent and others from doing the same thing again.
In a criminal trial, as mentioned in the OP, the sentence is strictly punitive. There is no compensatory damages involved. Unless of course the victim files a civi suit in conjunction with the criminal case.
One of our resident lawyers can jump in any time to correct me if I'm wrong.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:42:12 PM
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drmark
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Thank you, QTman, for that excellent clarification. However, the OP still leaves room for the possibility that the offense did not mandate a criminal trial. Thus, my hypothetical situation whereby the innocent daughter may have "served justice" better than her guilty mother was physically capable of doing.
quote:
What about the moral and biblical considerations? Well, what do you think of the moral implications of someone serving the sentence of another, especially if retribution or compensation is better served by the innocent proxy compared to the guilty party (hmmm, sounds like Someone I know pretty well!).
Regarding biblical considerations, would honoring one's mother be a reasonable basis for accepting physical punishment which might weaken, if not endanger, an elderly parent's health? Remember, this scenario is not restricted to democratic countries with appropriate safeguards to human rights!
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:52:06 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Thank you, QTman, for that excellent clarification. However, the OP still leaves room for the possibility that the offense did not mandate a criminal trial. Thus, my hypothetical situation whereby the innocent daughter may have "served justice" better than her guilty mother was physically capable of doing.
quote:
What about the moral and biblical considerations? Well, what do you think of the moral implications of someone serving the sentence of another, especially if retribution or compensation is better served by the innocent proxy compared to the guilty party (hmmm, sounds like Someone I know pretty well!).
Regarding biblical considerations, would honoring one's mother be a reasonable basis for accepting physical punishment which might weaken, if not endanger, an elderly parent's health? Remember, this scenario is not restricted to democratic countries with appropriate safeguards to human rights!
When the word crime or criminal are used that does not refer to a civil liability to me. In the case of a civil liability resulting from a civil law suit in most cases the awards are paid by an insurance company and sometimes some other third party or the defendent themself. In either case the thing that matters is that it was paid. And the case would be closed and justice served.
In a criminal case, as the OP eluded to this is not the case. Suppose the police took the daughters confession without looking further into the matter. Further suppose there was a trial and a conviction. What if the daughter had been sentenced to death. All this for a crime she did not commit. The only thing she was guilty of was loving and trying to protect her mother. Although admirable it is not justice.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 4:56:11 PM
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drmark
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quote:
The only thing she was guilty of was loving and trying to protect her mother. Although admirable it is not justice. Not legally by definition, but you've yet to convince me that there is no other possible way justice can be served!
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 5:16:55 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The only thing she was guilty of was loving and trying to protect her mother. Although admirable it is not justice.
Not legally by definition, but you've yet to convince me that there is no other possible way justice can be served!
And I am not trying to. There are many ways justice can be served legally, ethnically and morally. Just not by convicting an innocent third party.
Let me give you a real life example.
Many years ago I was a manager in a large national retail establishment. I was in one of the largest stores they had. Every week a elderly gentleman would come into the store and he would steal things. Cheap things. A couple of dollars or less. For weeks I would just follow him out of the store and approach him and say o.k. Mr. ______ give me whatever you took. He would hand it over and I would let him leave. The situation only got worse and this man was eventually going to run into someone beside me. BTW he was well into his 80's. Finally out of desperation I called the cops. He was arrested and given a trial date. I went to court as usual but this time with another agenda. I ask for and received permission to address the court. I proceeded to explain to the court that it was not our desire to see this man punished but to get his family involved and get him some help. At my urging the gentleman was released in his son's custody. Just a side note I found that his son was a prominent Doctor in the area. I got the nicest note from the son a few days later. I also never had any further problems or contact with the elder gentleman. Was justice served. You betcha.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 5:22:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Just not by convicting an innocent third party. If the presumed criminal trial was by judge and jury, is not a conviction always "legally just" under that system? The preponderance of evidence must have been sufficient to convict, right?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 5:26:02 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Just not by convicting an innocent third party. If the presumed criminal trial was by judge and jury, is not a conviction always "legally just" under that system? The preponderance of evidence must have been sufficient to convict, right?
Only in a civil trial. For a criminal trial the perpondence is not enough. It has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. And before you say it yes there have been innocent people convicted before. But that does not make it right.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 5:32:32 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And before you say it yes there have been innocent people convicted before. But that does not make it right Legally right, but not morally right. Yes, I agree. So what exactly is justice?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 7:12:57 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
And before you say it yes there have been innocent people convicted before. But that does not make it right Legally right, but not morally right. Yes, I agree. So what exactly is justice?
To convict an innocent person is not right in any sense.
The legal profession and the court system and the Law Enforcement agencies make mistakes. And sometimes these bad convictions are due to bad police work or bad prosecutors and some times due to corruption. You see Drmark my profession like yours has a few bad apples. Have you never done everything you could think of and still lost a patient. I have assumed here youare a medical Dr. Sometimes that happens in my profession also.
I have to convince 12 people Drmark committed a crime. But long before that I have to convince one person. That person is me. I have never, do not now, nor will I ever go to court unless I have enough clean evidence to convince me of the persons guilt. This has always worked for me. As for as what is justice. When a person commits a crime, that person and that person only pay the price, whatever that may be, for the crime.
The only totally innocent person to ever walk on this earth was arrested, tried, convictedand executed. Thats right Jesus was put to death for crimes He never committed. Was that justice?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 7:23:08 PM
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MrFribbles
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It's a tough question to answer. On the one hand, I think that a person ought to get what they deserve. On the other hand, my eternal hope is based on the opposite of that. However, I would say the example of Christ is unique in that He was perfect, and none of us are.
In the scenario the OP described, I would say that justice would not have been done. The guilty person did not get what they deserved. But that's just my opinion, and one I'm not entirely sure of.
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/25/2008 10:06:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
So far I have found two people I do not want on a jury. What if you were on trial? 
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/26/2008 9:34:08 PM
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blessed_every_day
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quote:
It's a tough question to answer. On the one hand, I think that a person ought to get what they deserve. On the other hand, my eternal hope is based on the opposite of that
The USA population in general seems to obsessed with obtaining "justice". (Just watch any prime-time TV crime show) Even most Christians strongly demand "justice". I find this confusing, especially for Christians, as "justice" for all of us would be going to Hell for our sins. Why is it OK for Christians to demand justice for someone else's action but ask God for mercy and forgiveness for their own actions?
-B
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/27/2008 11:37:21 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessed_every_day
quote:
It's a tough question to answer. On the one hand, I think that a person ought to get what they deserve. On the other hand, my eternal hope is based on the opposite of that
The USA population in general seems to obsessed with obtaining "justice". (Just watch any prime-time TV crime show) Even most Christians strongly demand "justice". I find this confusing, especially for Christians, as "justice" for all of us would be going to Hell for our sins. Why is it OK for Christians to demand justice for someone else's action but ask God for mercy and forgiveness for their own actions?
-B
Do you advocate dismantling police forces and the judical system, then just excuse all crime?
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RE: What exactly is justice? - 8/27/2008 12:48:40 PM
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zamdad
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Day before yesterday here in MN a man was sentenced for killing his six year old som while turkey hunting. The man had alcohol and marijuana in his system at the time and the kid did not follow his instructions: to sit there and remain still. On a talk radio station in the twin cities the host was asking viewersfor their opinions on what the sentence should be. he made his opinion known that he felt the man did not need to sit in a jail cell for an extended period of time, that the jail cell should be reserved for predatory type offenders or those who sell dope to kids. It was interesting to listen to the callers as the majority of callers seemed to think that the crime was heinous enough that the guy deserved to be in a cell for many years. When pressed as to why thet thought the way they did, most of the rationale was emotional reasoning.
It makes me wonder if we don't have the highest incarceration rate because of the emotioanl reasoning that goes into the laws we draft. The politicians pander to these emotions promising to get tough on crime and then create laws where we end up locking up large segments of the population under the guise of rehabilitation. having worked in corrections for many years, I can attest to the fact that rehabilitation is not the main goal of the system. The main goal becomes getting one out so another can come in and fill the bed.
OUr emotional reasoning all too often leaves the mercy out of justice. It becomes lock em up so they're out of sight, out of mind. To me, justice is about restoration. Restoring the victim and the offender. Restoring the victim to help them become a functioning member of the community and restoring the offender to becoming a productive member of the community.
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The legal is basically cut and dried, but is it necessarily right? What about the moral and biblical considerations?
