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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/28/2008 11:20:02 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1712
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
We understand that if by the grace of God we both make it heaven
This is a bit off-topic, but why do you say "if"?
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And I've thanked you ever since.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/28/2008 12:17:33 PM
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Raptorman
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Okay, Jimbo. That one sounds all right. Good start. Still, aside from the fact that it never actually says whether the marriage is terminated (or whether or not it will carry over when the other spouse dies), I honestly wonder if its historical context has nothing to do with this. I'm not trying to dodge a bullet. I'm just wondering. Remember, many lower-class people (lots of these in the early church, to whom Paul was writing) depended on the survival of family members. Wives/mothers especially needed husbands or sons to provide for them. I am simply curious as to whether Paul might have said "She is free to marry anyone she wishes" partly so a widow could have another husband to protect her and provide for her needs.
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/28/2008 12:58:52 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Your point? That if Jesus is gonna take a "Bride" that His "Bride" can also have spouses and do what, commit adultery? There seems to be a fly in that ointment. You make an assumption that Messiah being a husband to us (collectively) is the same thing as a human marriage. I do not think that is a valid or scripturally supported idea. If it was the same thing, would not HIM (as a male) marrying me (a male) be considered homosexuality?
quote:
I've yet to find a legitmate denomination, group, or church that teaches marriage in heaven except between the Lord and His Church. I would not teach it either as it is a subject that is not clear in scripture. For the same reason I would also not teach against it.
I will argue against either position in favor of leaving it undefined.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/28/2008 4:56:14 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
You make an assumption that Messiah being a husband to us (collectively) is the same thing as a human marriage. I do not think that is a valid or scripturally supported idea. If it was the same thing, would not HIM (as a male) marrying me (a male) be considered homosexuality?
Why are you assuming there will even be sexes and a need for reproductive organs. I assume you don't buy into the Mormon or Muslim nonsense.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/28/2008 5:38:49 PM
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Restored_Heart
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How does this passage factor in?
Mt 22:23-33
Marriage at the Resurrection
23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.
I think we are forgetting the fact that we will be focused on God in Heaven, not on ourselves or our spouses.... or former spouses.
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/29/2008 4:44:08 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
Thus, unless I am mistaken we cannot use Scripture to rule out the possibility that marriage might continue in eternity.
If the condition of marriage is allowed to persist in heaven, it would do nothing to lessen or decrease our love or connection with Christ, but would just be another level of fellowship between believers.
Really, I think this topic is far more complicated than we think, a mystery that will only be fully disclosed when we actually arrive in heaven.
This is the conclusion I am reaching.
Thanks for your great post, Raptor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
We will the Bride of Christ and He will not share His Bride with another.
Using this logic, why allow the Bride, His people, marry in the first place? Since the Bride is a collection of the body of believers, and if Jesus prohibits sharing His bride with another, why would marriage ever be endorsed?
I can't take being "engaged to Jesus" or "married" literally. That would make Jesus bisexual and myself homosexual. I believe the marriage between the Bride and Christ is to be taken spiritually and not so much literally.
We will be fully united between Christ as if it were like the marriage we're familiar with on earth. We will have that same commitment to Him as in marriage, but I don't fully think we'll be literally married to Him. If that were so, it would go against His own teaching of homosexuality being an abomination.
quote:
DPR, if "heaven" is your hang up, then read what Jesus said:
"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Yes, I have read over this verse a thousand times over. It is the reason I began this thread.
In the verse, it says "but are like angels in heaven". I've searched the contents of this verse, and it seems to be speaking more along the lines of being immortal and incorruptible, as the angels in heaven are.
It also states that the physical relations of earthly marriage do not apply to spiritual beings. However, though we are "as the angels of heaven", that doesn't deny personal intercourse and spiritual relationships, just the existence of fleshly attachments.
Angels have little need for marriage. So, "as the angles of heaven", we neither will have the need for marriage. So then, what happens of our relationships between our existing spouses?
Marriage may end at death, but does the relationship, the love, the bond of being "two in one flesh" end? Will we continue to know our spouse in heaven?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
For all I know, if I wind up being right, they could be paired with a new ideal spouse, or the "best" spouse from their earthly life. It's speculation, though.
This was actually spoken of in the article I posted:
"One does not need to argue and worry about who will be one's spouse in heaven. Is it the same spouse in this world? Nobody knows, only God knows. If husband and wife are love each other so much that they desire to become an eternal couple, they may ask God to give them permission during the millennium, God may give them. This matter only God knows and make the ultimate decision. God will match the best spouse for the faithful saints during the millennium in Heaven."
For whatever its worth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Are we not to have a physical body, resurerected and glorified, just like the body Jesus had after His resurrection?
I'm interested in this question, as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JamesL5
I realize this is tough but my wife and I talked about this and have accepted it. We understand that if by the grace of God we both make it heaven, we will no longer be married.
Are you insisting that after entering Heaven, you won't have a relationship with your spouse at all? That's something I can't bring myself to believe.
I can't bring myself to believe that our ties with our spouse will be cut off completely due to the verse in Matthew. Merely because Heaven is God-centered doesn't necessarily mean relationships among believers won't exist. So why should our pre-existing relationship with our spouse cease to exist, or not carry over into eternity?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
I think we are forgetting the fact that we will be focused on God in Heaven, not on ourselves or our spouses.... or former spouses.
So? Interaction among believers should still exist. It's not going to be dull or boring in paradise, neither is it going to be a 24/7 worship concert.
Why shouldn't those relationships exist? "Marriage" or not, I don't think a relationship between spouses in Heaven can be disproved.
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The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/29/2008 8:53:24 AM
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Restored_Heart
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quote:
So? Interaction among believers should still exist. It's not going to be dull or boring in paradise, neither is it going to be a 24/7 worship concert.
Why shouldn't those relationships exist? "Marriage" or not, I don't think a relationship between spouses in Heaven can be disproved.
I don't think the interactions will be the same as we view them now... Marriage is a thing for here - to meet a physical/emotional/spiritual need that we have here.... Those needs will be fulfilled in Christ in Heaven.
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 8/30/2008 3:42:10 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Why are you assuming there will even be sexes and a need for reproductive organs. I assume you don't buy into the Mormon or Muslim nonsense. Does not Paul state that food is for the stomach and the stomach for food, but both will be done away?
And yet we see the resurrected Messiah eating fish with his disciples. And yet we are to be called to the wedding feast of the Messiah in our resurrected bodies.
You accuse me of assuming something that you assume the opposite of. Because I argue against your position you think I have taken the opposite view; I have not. Both are assumptions I have not made. I do not assume we will or will not have the ability to have sexual relations. I do not assume that we will or will not continue in marriage relationships. I do not assume that if marriages continue, they will have a sexual component to them.
We just do not know. Too much speculation.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/1/2008 3:24:17 PM
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officer2002
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DreadPirateRandy I commend your discernment of truth. The light of Christ truly illuminates you.
Matthew 22 has been sited by previous repliers. In that chapter Jesus was responding to a question posed by the Saduccees about marriage and not giving a discertation on the subject. There will be people who make it home with Father in Heaven who will be single forever but not everyone who makes it home with Father in Heaven will be single.
There will be marriages in Heaven(and are now). A marriage done in the right way will not end. If my wife and I endure to the end in keeping the commandments of God our marriage will not end because we were married in the Washington D.C. Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on 4 February 1999.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/1/2008 4:38:55 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
DPR, if "heaven" is your hang up, then read what Jesus said:
"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Yes, I have read over this verse a thousand times over. It is the reason I began this thread.
In the verse, it says "but are like angels in heaven". I've searched the contents of this verse, and it seems to be speaking more along the lines of being immortal and incorruptible, as the angels in heaven are.
Yes, the parallel passage in Luke does in fact explain what being like the angels in heaven means...
"...they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. (Luke 20:36)
So the question is, "what does being like the angels mean in regard to whether or not we'll be married in heaven?" Well, immortal beings have no need to procreate and reproduce their kind because they live forever and ever. The same will be true of us. The kingdom of God will be established and there will be no need to marry in order to reproduce our kind. The Bible teaches that marriage was instituted to produce offspring, particularly for the kingdom:
"...she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. 15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring." (Malachi 2:14-15)
As immortal beings (like the angels), and with the kingdom established and populated for all eternity, what need will there be for procreation through the marital bond of a man of a woman? That need will end with the resurrection of our immortal bodies.
The teaching is clear in the Bible. Marriage ends at death:
"...I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." (Romans 7:1-3)
So, will two people who were married in this life get remarried in the next? We already know that the answer to that is 'No':
" 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (Matt. 22:30)
Paul teaches that marriage is really just an illustration given to us to understand the relationship between Christ and the church:
31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:31-32)
But, even with this being true, he exhorts us to continue in the responsibilities of that earthly relationship:
33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (Eph. 5:33)
All of these things have brought me to the conclusion that there will be no marriage, or the continuance of marriage in heaven. It only has it's purpose in this life. And that is to illustrate the relationship between Christ and the church, and to populate the future kingdom.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 12:32:28 AM
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Raptorman
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Jimbo, I think it's safe to say that our genders will be intact. After all, Moses and Elijah were there with Jesus at the Transfiguration, and I would presume that they were recognizably male. If we have no genders in heaven, it's doubtful the disciples would see them as anything but androgynous beings. Even the angels are seen as males, not creatures without gender. If you think that genders will be done away with, and yet that will somehow not steal part of our identities, the burden is upon you to make a case for it.
BTW, I think I've already addressed this talk about "no reproduction = no marriage." Reproduction is one of the functions of marriage in this earthly life, but it's not the only one. Marriage (and sex, as well) are things ordained by God not just to be an analogy between Christ and the Church, or so we can perpetuate our species, but also for connection, pleasure, intimacy, support, and to help each other grow in godliness, things we know will already exist in heaven.
SpongeBlog, those verses are the very ones which we are discussing, and trying to ascertain if they really mean what many Christians think they mean, or if they might have a different context, or whether there even might have been a less-than-precise translation to English. Isn't it arguing in a circle to cite those verses to verify what you think they teach? Frankly, I have to extend that same question to everyone else who is joining this forum by quoting Matt. 22:30 and a couple of other pet prooftexts and declaring "Case closed. No marriage in heaven."
Look, I will confess that I have a certain bias in this subject. To be brutally honest, I want there to be marriage in heaven. I'm not sure if it's a good thing to desire, but part of me wants that dimension of human/Christian fellowship and companionship to continue throughout eternity, partly because it makes more sense to me for a variety of reasons, and because I would rather not see it disappear. Not because I won't value God's presence and love far above everything else. Of course I will. It's just that I care a great deal about marriage in particular. But not in a million years do I want this bias to cloud my vision. So I want to try and probe into this mystery, at least a little, which is one reason why I'm talking about it in this thread with you guys.
Why assume that marriage must fade away because we'll be "married" to Jesus? It seems like a very utilitarian view of heaven that something will not be there if we don't "need" it. We won't "need" the mansions Jesus has gone to prepare for us. We won't "need" to nourish our bodies with the food Christ provides at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. We won't "need" each other's friendship in heaven, because we will have God as our friend for all time. We won't "need" to sit under Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and listen to them teach us and recount their stories. And yet, God will give us those things anyway. It's not because we will require these things to inhabit or enjoy the afterlife. It's simply because of His abundant grace, and His passion for giving us everything in excess. "I have come that they may have life, and have it more abundantly." So, the way I see it, if marriage is allowed to continue, it will just be another facet of that abundant blessing. But if you're right and marriage disappears, then I am confident that God will explain why that is the best thing to do.
< Message edited by Raptorman -- 9/2/2008 12:55:25 AM >
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 8:43:26 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
...Isn't it arguing in a circle to cite those verses to verify what you think they teach?
No, not at all. Taken together, all the scriptures I shared make the case pretty well for no marriage in heaven. The best way to understand a subject is to look at everything the Bible says about a subject; that's what I was doing. If those passages left out information, I'd understand what you are saying. But as it is, they are not vauge and open to being easily misunderstood because of lack of information. And as far as translation...I don't see any value in investigating the scriptures to see if 'no' really means 'yes'. I think we should save that scrutiny for the opinions we've formed from the more abstract and vauge subjects in the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
Look, I will confess that I have a certain bias in this subject. To be brutally honest, I want there to be marriage in heaven. I'm not sure if it's a good thing to desire, but part of me wants that dimension of human/Christian fellowship and companionship to continue throughout eternity, partly because it makes more sense to me for a variety of reasons, and because I would rather not see it disappear.
Thank you for your honesty. I left it out of my last post, but I wanted to say it's interesting how people with good marriages hope desparately there will be marriage in heaven while people with bad marriages are thankful that it ends with our earthly existence.
I'm amused at how us humans (me too, you know) can be so engrossed with a desire or passion for something that 'no' sounds like 'yes'. I still remember the story of my son who was so determined to spend his collectors series half dollar that when he asked if he could spend it I said 'no' and he heard 'yes' and spent it. It's humorous today, but it reminds me of how even my own desparate desires and expectations can make me hear something the way I want it to sound. I'm on your side. I'm flesh and blood too, and struggle the same way with the word of God at times.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 11:35:15 AM
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Raptorman
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Listen, Sponge, perhaps I'm mistaken, but it does seem that those verses are less than crystal clear about the simple yes-or-no question, "will marriage continue in heaven?" To me, it seems that Jesus in Matt. 22 is either saying (1 as you postulate, that marriages will indeed be cut off, or (2 that marriages will not be incessantly beginning and ending, like the Saducees' example of a woman being shuttled from husband to husband as each brother dies, one after the other (I for one would check the quality of her cooking  ). And in the interest of truth, I'd like to know which of those interpretations is the best one, or if there are other ways to look at these verses. Not that I want to see something in the text that isn't there. I'm curious, and I'm asking these questions because few others even bother. And when I ask a couple of questions about the verses used, and whether they really are concrete and definitive statements, somebody then quotes those verses again to try and prove me wrong. That sounds like circular reasoning to me.
In the records of this same conversation in Luke, Jesus gets more specific with what heaven will be like and says people will not die. So is Jesus saying that marriage will not continue because we will have immortal bodies, or that marriage will still exist, but nobody will die, and no spouses will have to remarry (as in the Saducees' challenge)? That's what I want to find out.
Look, I may have a bias, but does that mean that my ideas and questions are automatically suspect, or that I'm some little kid hearing "yes" instead of "no"? A scientist can be biased in favor of a theory he has developed, and still be proven right. I want to say yes to the "marriage in heaven" question, but there's something about the prooftexts (Matt. 22:30, etc.) that just doesn't seem quite solid in making a case that marriage will be obliterated. Something about how the texts are interpreted simply doesn't seem right. It doesn't make sense, and I have already expressed my reasons for thinking this in previous posts ("What will happen to our sex organs?", Jesus doesn't literally marry us, etc.). Besides, I'm a sci-fi and fantasy writer! It's my job to ask the "what if" questions nobody else asks. 
So I want marriage to exist in the afterlife, but it's not because I'm desperately and irrationally clinging to it. I have some honest questions, and I try to think through this matter. That's all.
< Message edited by Raptorman -- 9/2/2008 11:45:44 AM >
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 12:46:04 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2377
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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quote:
"One does not need to argue and worry about who will be one's spouse in heaven. Is it the same spouse in this world? Nobody knows, only God knows. If husband and wife are love each other so much that they desire to become an eternal couple, they may ask God to give them permission during the millennium, God may give them. This matter only God knows and make the ultimate decision. God will match the best spouse for the faithful saints during the millennium in Heaven."
that- all due respect to the fellow who wrote the article- would be a great base for a tearjerking Hollywood scenario, but isn’t realistic. Sorry for subjective opinion, for I don’t own any husbands yet, living or dead, but personally know people widowed & remarried, exceptionally lucky both times.
How can they choose, it’d be "Sophies Choice", like making a parent choose only one of his kids to be with him in heaven. My precious Sis in Law, as much I think the world of my brother loved and valued her first husband just as much as she loves Eli.(we are not talking suitability here,i heard you Raptorman, but Love).
quote:
So I want to try and probe into this mystery, at least a little, which is one reason why I'm talking about it in this thread with you guys.
So what do you know, Raptorman, I saw your clean intentions and just asked your thoughts to be debated in my programming class at break.
The verdict : we 'd gladly give your view the benefit of the doubt, but conditionally. We r confident that all pleasurebringing things in this life - love, friends, weddings, sandals with sparkles, Monday Night football , donuts, bbqribs , recreational pot, coffee and Cuban cigars(suggestion courtesy of our Prof. B-sky, God bless him!) are too good to be eliminated w/t a trace. For sure, we’ll be provided with even better substitutes, we won’t be jypped out of goodies.
As for marriage as we now know it ..… Maybe serial spouse ZaZa Gabur was right after all, saying: “ A girl must marry for love, and keep on marrying until she finds it." Unconditional Love is the best part of marriage, as everyone would agree. AndTHAT we are surely promised in heaven.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 1:25:47 PM
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SpongeBlog
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I apologize, Raptor, if I came across a little to forthright, if not condescending. I'm still reeling from another thread where 'new covenant' really means 'old covenant'. I've seen first hand the frustration and confusion that people cause when they say plain black and white words actually mean the opposite of what is being stated. Of course I'm over generalizing to get my point across, and I'm certainly not suggesting you are doing that. I would only suspect that you were doing that if you were being emphatic about it, which you are not. My hope is that I could persuade you from going down that deadend road.
I guess I failed to help you see what the scriptures communicate about this subject. The questions you raise get answered from the Romans passage, not from Jesus's words recorded in the gospel. From these passages, is a person still married when they die?
quote:
"...I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." (Romans 7:1-3)
And if they are not, can, or will they get remarried in the next life according to Jesus?
If you're not totally offended by my first post, perhaps you can raise some other questions about the Romans 7 passage and we'll follow those out to their logical conclusions, too. I can think of some, but let's see what you might ask first.
Just as a side note. The older I get, the more I realize how completely earthly our marriage/ reproductive instincts are. I am becoming more and more convinced how almost overwhelming our lives are based on and controlled by hormones...IOW, the flesh (hormones are not just sexual). I'm not saying that's bad (not all things of the flesh are sinful). I'm saying we are so bound to this earthly/ fleshly existence, that it's all we know, and we know little about what life will really be like without the desires of the flesh, good or bad.
Have you ever been in a church meeting where you were so completely united with your brethren in the Spirit? Truthfully, I'm not sure most Christians know the experience, and I've only experienced it a few times. A perfect spiritual relationship with another human being is completely devoid of the intervention and influence of our fleshly desires (good or bad) and is nothing short of the perfect, unconditional love that only comes through the Spirit of God. There is no singling out of others, or favortisms in this kind of unity. Words are failing me right now to make you see what I'm talking about. I suspect this is what the next life is all about. The desires of marriage that we know do not fit into that picture for a nanosecond.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 1:58:42 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Marriage ends at death:
Technically speaking, yes, I'm clear on this. Regardless, I still hope and pray that some form of marriage will exist of the new earth.
This still doesn't answer my question, though. When I get married to my girlfriend, and we (more than likely) go in the rapture of the second coming of Christ, will I still know her regardless of the title of "married" in there or not?
I'm having difficulties grasping the circumstances of not remembering or having that relationship in heaven, if that is so. It seems unfair to me because I don't want to be separated from that relationship. Even if it is in a perfect, joyous environment.
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The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 2:33:35 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Marriage ends at death:
Technically speaking, yes, I'm clear on this. Regardless, I still hope and pray that some form of marriage will exist of the new earth.
This still doesn't answer my question, though. When I get married to my girlfriend, and we (more than likely) go in the rapture of the second coming of Christ, will I still know her regardless of the title of "married" in there or not?
I'm having difficulties grasping the circumstances of not remembering or having that relationship in heaven, if that is so. It seems unfair to me because I don't want to be separated from that relationship. Even if it is in a perfect, joyous environment.
I do not believe anyone can give you a reasonable answer to that question. While I cannot see enjoying current relationships in heaven, I cannot voice a thought on the dynamic of relationships between "people" in heaven. I can more easily guess at the relationship we will enjoy with Christ.
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Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 4:07:35 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
Jimbo, I think it's safe to say that our genders will be intact. After all, Moses and Elijah were there with Jesus at the Transfiguration, and I would presume that they were recognizably male. If we have no genders in heaven, it's doubtful the disciples would see them as anything but androgynous beings....
Quick question: How do you think the disciples "recognized" Moses and Elijah - from pictures, statues, they remembered them, or, perhaps, they were told?
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 4:13:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
We just do not know. Too much speculation.
Not a bit of speculation, Dave, not a bit. If you receive a new body at the resurrection, according to Jesus you will not marry and the marriage(s) you had on earth will no longer exist.
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/2/2008 11:31:05 PM
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Raptorman
Posts: 116
Joined: 9/21/2005
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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Wow. Thanks, Odeliya! I'm honored. And that does seem like a perfectly reasonable conclusion, that the things we enjoy here will, in one context or another, not entirely disappear.
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Jimbo, there is a possibility that they were told the men were Moses and Elijah. But what about the male angels? What about the 24 elders in Revelation, where a couple of times, John says "one of them turned, and he said to me..."? Aside from your speculation, there seems to be no support at all (let alone biblical support) that we won't have genders. I'll say it again: Gender makes up part of who we are, as individuals. Why is it going to be wiped out in heaven?
And by the way, you're not speculating. You're soapboxing. You are telling everyone that they are wrong and out of line with Scripture if they disagree with you. It's your interpretation which tells you Jesus "specifically" states that all human marriages will all cease to exist. Kind of a leap from the words "neither marry nor given in marriage."
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Thank you for the kind words, Sponge. I apologize if I seemed forceful or close-minded. I am completely in agreement with DeadPirateRandy when he says he doesn't want his future martial relationship dissolved, but I really am working hard on keeping myself open to your points.
There actually have been a couple of times where I felt a deep unity with other believers, or sensed a deep empathy with them. That is only the most fleeting of tastes of what heaven will be like. You can take this or leave this, for whatever it's worth, but if I am not reading too much into your remarks, there does appear to be some belief that what is spiritual is better and "more eternally minded" than the physical. And granted, in this fallen world, that can be true with a lot of things. But the afterlife will have physical dimension. It will be the creation redeemed. And again, God will in His excess provide us with things we will not need. Jesus had no requirement to eat in His resurrection body, yet he ate fish with the disciples. I'm not sure if hormones will still be a factor, but they and their effects make up a part of our very identity. It seems a bit dehumanizing to take away desires in heaven just because they're "earthly." Sinful desires, for sure, will disappear. But I'm not sure about the other ones.
That's part of what opens up the question of marriage in the afterlife to me. People certainly will not need it, but that alone is no declaration that something will not be in heaven, nor is it an indication that "marriage will not fit into the picture". There's something else that keeps me wondering, involving how "personalized" heaven will be, how much room God may give for our tastes in eternity. For instance, I keep wondering if our prepared mansions will be customized. Will one Christian's mansion be a rustic log cabin with 100 acres of dense forest all around, and another's will be some proud and tall castle? Will one person serve God by, say, writing poems and novels in heaven, and will another praise Him by painting artwork which would put the Sistine Chapel to shame?
It's within this vein that I honestly ask, "Will the option of marrying be open to believers who still want it?" (Of course, this assumes that we'll even want such a thing in the next life) Take for example a Christian who has a terrible marriage and is unable to give himself/herself entirely to one other human being, or somebody who desperately wants a spouse, but never gets the chance because they die in a car crash, or the Rapture takes place before they can tie the knot. On behalf of those people, I ask whether the chance to marry might still exist, and wonder if Jesus perhaps was saying that marriages will not be starting and ending all the time. That's it.
Ah, jeez. Sorry for another ramble, guys.
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"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/3/2008 12:59:56 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletchquote:
We just do not know. Too much speculation. Not a bit of speculation, Dave, not a bit. If you receive a new body at the resurrection, according to Jesus you will not marry and the marriage(s) you had on earth will no longer exist. That is one intrepretation. It may or may not be the correct one. I have presented another intrepretation. It as well may or may not be correct.
Speculation.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Marriage in Heaven? - 9/3/2008 1:01:49 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
After all, Moses and Elijah were there with Jesus at the Transfiguration, and I would presume that they were recognizably male. And you know this how? Do we have a record of anyone checking to see whether or not they had the male "package?"
Speculation.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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