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TrustingChrist -> God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 8:07:55 PM)

In another thread there is a discussion of inherited sin / sin nature. I was wondering just how the follow questions would be dealt with in that line of thinking.

I have heard that as an infant we as humans are born into sin or sin nature which is basically the same thought. So the question is What about Jesus? Is he not born fully human just as us? Was he born is a sin nature? If not then how is it that he was born just as us? Does the bible teach that we inherit our fathers sin or we are only responsible for the sins we our self commit? If the bible says that Jesus had not one sin then how is it that if humans are born in sin or sin nature and Jesus is born as fully human just like us that he had no sin?

Maybe we need to rethink the born in sin / sin nature line of thinking and see if there is a way to line it up where we have Jesus being born as we are and not with sin. This is the problem I have with such thoughts could some one help me with this?



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 8:41:39 PM)

One thing that I think will be important is to define what a sin nature is. Despite what the NIV says (not knocking the NIV, but I don't believe that the flesh and the sin nature are the same thing), I don't think that Christians have a sin nature. Why? Because, by definition, a sin nature means that it is in our nature to sin. And we, as new creations, no longer have that nature. Rather, it is in our nature to serve God, and the sins are volitional choices against our nature.
That said, I believe that Christ must have been born without a sin nature, since, though tempted, Christ did not, by nature, desire to do that which is sinful, but rather desired to go about His Father's business.

I'm not sure how, exactly, the lack of sin nature was accomplished. Personally, I think it has to do with the combination of full humanity and full divinity indwelling one body.
However, I thought I'd throw out another idea that I've heard, and see what y'all think -
Basically, a sin nature is passed down through men. Since there was no man involved in Christ's conception, but only the woman and the Holy Spirit, no sin nature was present. This is also why no other human can be born without a sin nature, since, last time I checked, we all have a biological father.



OleFitzHi -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 9:08:55 PM)

Sin nature is inherited through your father. Jesus had no earthly father, therefore no sin nature.



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 9:30:45 PM)

quote:

by definition, a sin nature means that it is in our nature to sin.


Going off that definition it brings up these questions.

Eve was the first to sin when tempted was she created with a sin nature?

If not then why did she give in?

If you gave a reason other than she was created with a sin nature could the same be said of of us today?

quote:

I believe that Christ must have been born without a sin nature, since, though tempted, Christ did not, by nature, desire to do that which is sinful, but rather desired to go about His Father's business.


This brings up more questions.

If Jesus was born with out a sin nature then would not that make him different than man.

Does not the bible teach that Jesus had the same life just as man with the same chances of struggle where as to set the example as to how not to fall for such temptations?

If not would that not make him as fully man with equal temptations?


quote:

Basically, a sin nature is passed down through men. Since there was no man involved in Christ's conception, but only the woman and the Holy Spirit, no sin nature was present. This is also why no other human can be born without a sin nature, since, last time I checked, we all have a biological father.


While I find this to be an interesting thought would it not make Jesus less of a fully man just as us with the same problems we face?

While I feel that you gave good thought provoking answers I just don't think that they put Jesus in the same shoes we wear as the bible said he was. I do not claim to have the answer but just pondering on this If Jesus was fully man and was sent to live the same life we live with the same problems we have to show us how to deal with them then how could he not be just as we to do the job he was sent to do?

Did the bible say that he was here free from this God role that he left it behind to be as one of us? Is that not possible with God?

So in summary If Jesus was fully human as the word says then could it be that man is not born in a sin nature and Eve was not created in one but do come to one as the years flow?



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 10:13:23 PM)

One more Question. It seems that a lot of folks see it as sin passed on through the father. That would exclude Jesus but then it would also make him different than us and not equal to be burdened with our burdens as to show the Godly example as to how we are to deal with our burdens and what about these verses how do they fit in with this line of thought?

Listen to what God has to say about that "the sin of the father being passed onto the son" thing.

Eze 18,
1 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
5 "But if a man is righteous, and practices justice and righteousness,

Then later,

20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Just pondering and seeing how others would answer such questions.



bob97 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/25/2008 11:27:02 PM)

So TrustingChrist...are you saying that Christ was not fully God?

You also seem to be saying that Eve was created with a sin nature...I don't think that is what the bible teaches us.

Bob



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 12:16:12 AM)

No not really just asking question. In view of most of the questions asked I would be more inclined to say that just as Adam and Eve was not created with a sin nature it is most likely the case with Man. That also would line up with the what God said in Eze. As far as Jesus being Fully God I would have to say yes he was but He was also fully human and was tempted just as we. I can not explain just how this all works therefore I question to get others thought. The main thing that I have trouble with is the thinking that man is born in sin or with a sin nature. I think that it more like man gives into temptation and then falls into sin.

Like I said I do not have the answers therefore the questions. Just seeking thoughts.



bob97 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 12:50:10 AM)

What do you think Psalms 51 is talking about? Doesn't it seem pretty apparent that man is born into sin?

Psalms 51:1 - 10 (KJV) 1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Bob



bob97 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 12:51:59 AM)

Oh and the other issue...can God sin?

Bob



Thessa -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 2:54:36 AM)

I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 8:51:46 AM)

Bob I am not trying to say that Jesus was not the son of God. The question is 2 Fold.
First Jesus was to set aside his God head part and become fully man. He was to live the same trials we were faced with and be equal to the same as we. This could not be so if he did not lay aside his God head while being human right. Even thought Jesus was God he did not have his power ready available while he walked as a man. He had to receive it through the Holy Spirit just as we do today right? Therefore he was equal to man. He was said to be no greater than man while walking as man. what ever was happening to us was put on him also so he could show that we can over come it. He was our equal. If so then He could not have been born in sin or with a sin condition that would make him sin regardless. He like use was born in a fallen world that was full of sin and temptation but he did not sub-come to such he showed that we can resist .


Second the main reason for the question is to get us to think a little different on the born in sin /sin condition theory. While we are born into a fallen world which is full of sin does not have to mean we were born in sin or in a condition that would not allow any thing but for us to sin.

We are made in the image of God just as Adam and Eve. They were not made in sin or in a sin condition. They did come to sin later but not because they were created to do so. It is the same with us today We are created in Gods image not in sin or a sin condition. While we are born into a fallen world we are tempted heavily and do sub-come to sin but that does not mean we were born in that manner.

As posted Gods word in Eze. 18 above that refutes the born in sin theory or makes God untruthful.So that leaves us looking for another way of looking at the theory and it just seems that it can not be said truthfully that we are born in sin or born with a sinful condition but we are born into a fallen world which we fall victim to.

Just my thoughts as I try to sort all this out. As I have said I have not the answers but am seeking to find the one that best fits with the recorded word of my Lord and Saviour.

Now we have another problem You Post what David pleads to God in Psalms against Gods word I post in Eze. 18 and think that David trumps God but I can not by that so that leaves us looking for another thought process to line with Gods word and not our understanding. May Gods word be true.



bob97 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 11:46:38 AM)

Hi TrustingChrist...

quote:

Ezekiel 18:1 - 5 (KJV) 1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge? 3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,


Ezekiel 18:20 - 23 (KJV) 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


These verses that you have quoted from Ezekiel are saying nothing about the sinfulness of man; all they are really laying out is the concept of individual responsibility which will be the determining factor in salvation as opposed to national responsibility. If my father murders someone, the burden of that sin is not transmitted to me.

Bob



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 6:55:40 PM)

TrustingChrist,
Before I continue further, I must ask, do you believe we, as Christians, have a sin nature?



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 7:41:40 PM)

I really do not know just how to answer that. I have no ideal what you mean by sin nature. I do not think that we are born in sin. I do not think that we inherit sin from others. I do know that Adam caused a fallen world. I do know that we will sin. I just can not say that God created us in a condition that we have no choice but to sin if that is what is meant by a sin condition. I know that we have and will sin but it was not because we were born to do so it is because we gave in to sin. I am still studying through this to get a better understanding of it.



JamesL5 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 8:03:12 PM)

quote:

MrFribbles

Before I continue further, I must ask, do you believe we, as Christians, have a sin nature?


The answer is definitely yes. Our flesh is sinful. If you are indeed a Christian, then you should be in constant battle with your flesh everyday because our flesh loves to sin. This is why the bible instructs us not to gratify the sinful desires of our flesh.



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 9:18:27 PM)

TrustingChrist,
quote:

I do not think that we are born in sin. I do not think that we inherit sin from others. I do know that Adam caused a fallen world. I do know that we will sin.


If we are not born in sin, nor inherit sin from others, how do you know that we will all sin?

JamesL5
quote:

Easy question.......YES. Our flesh is sinful.


What makes you equate sinful nature and flesh?



TrustingChrist -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 9:56:40 PM)

I have answered this already. It is because of the world we live in. The world is in a fallen state and sin is all around us. We can do our best before or after receiving the spirit but we will fall short along the way. That does not mean that we were created with a sin nature in my understanding it only means that we can and will fall short.

Like I said I don't have the answers I am just seeking to understand a more closer to gods view than mine. god said that we do not inherit sin. God said that he created us in his image. God did not create Satan with sin either it just came about and from what I understand that is how we fall into sin. It is in no way because God created me that way it is totally something that I did all on my own and he gave me a way out.

Like I said I am not as smart as god to tell anyone how it works but I am trusting God to help me understand the best he will allow me to understand. At the time being it seems from scripture that he is telling me that it is not his fault that I sin but my own free will walking the road I chose and ignoring his leading that gets me into sin.



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/26/2008 10:10:08 PM)

quote:

I have answered this already. It is because of the world we live in. The world is in a fallen state and sin is all around us. We can do our best before or after receiving the spirit but we will fall short along the way. That does not mean that we were created with a sin nature in my understanding it only means that we can and will fall short.


Let's say, hypothetically, that a baby is whisked away at birth to an environment completely isolated from sinful people. How would such a child sin?

quote:

god said that we do not inherit sin


He said we don't always inherit specific sins. That doesn't mean we aren't born sinful.

quote:

Like I said I am not as smart as god to tell anyone how it works but I am trusting God to help me understand the best he will allow me to understand.


And anyone who would claim better about themselves is getting too big for their britches. : )



URForgiven -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/27/2008 9:51:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingChrist

I really do not know just how to answer that. I have no ideal what you mean by sin nature. I do not think that we are born in sin. I do not think that we inherit sin from others. I do know that Adam caused a fallen world. I do know that we will sin. I just can not say that God created us in a condition that we have no choice but to sin if that is what is meant by a sin condition. I know that we have and will sin but it was not because we were born to do so it is because we gave in to sin. I am still studying through this to get a better understanding of it.


Genesis 2:17
"But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:7
"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked"

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

Man was created in the image of God, but we are born in the image of Adam. Adam could not pass on to us what he did not have [the Spirit of God]. But he could and did pass on to us what he did have, our human nature. A nature separated from the Spirit of God. Human nature is sin nature.

Peace



CherishedbyGod -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/27/2008 8:36:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thessa

I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.


Did you get your question answered? It looks as if you did not? Which saying are you referring to that Jesus said on the cross before He died?

I am just trying to clarify[;)]



Thessa -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/28/2008 3:02:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thessa

I have a sort of related question - - -
This may seem odd to some of you, but until being online i had never heard of the trinity before until about a month ago.
Ive always believed that Jesus is the Son of God and God is a seperate being and that was that.
Is this not true? Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself? It dosent make sense to me...im really trying to understand this.


Did you get your question answered? It looks as if you did not? Which saying are you referring to that Jesus said on the cross before He died?

I am just trying to clarify[;)]



No i didnt get my question answered. I was looking on here hoping i did. lol
Im talking about when he said this 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/28/2008 11:16:09 AM)

quote:

Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself?


One thing that helps in understanding the Trinity is that, even though all three persons of the Godhead are, in fact, God, that doesn't mean they are all exactly the same. God the Father was not walking around on earth as a human being, only God the Son (Jesus) did that. Similarly, God the Son does not indwell every believer, only God the Holy Spirit does that. Jesus was sent from the Father, and likewise, the Spirit was sent by Jesus. All three are equally God, but each has a different roles.
A way that I have found helpful to think about this is considering men and women. The two genders have different roles (I've never seen a man give birth, for instance), but in terms of their value as human beings, they are entirely equal. I don't want that to spark a discussion on gender roles, I'm just using it as an example!



Thessa -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/28/2008 5:32:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

Is Jesus God? How does that work and if thats true then why does Jesus say what he says on the cross before he dies? Who is he talking to? Himself?


One thing that helps in understanding the Trinity is that, even though all three persons of the Godhead are, in fact, God, that doesn't mean they are all exactly the same. God the Father was not walking around on earth as a human being, only God the Son (Jesus) did that. Similarly, God the Son does not indwell every believer, only God the Holy Spirit does that. Jesus was sent from the Father, and likewise, the Spirit was sent by Jesus. All three are equally God, but each has a different roles.
A way that I have found helpful to think about this is considering men and women. The two genders have different roles (I've never seen a man give birth, for instance), but in terms of their value as human beings, they are entirely equal. I don't want that to spark a discussion on gender roles, I'm just using it as an example!



Thank you for explaning that! Yeah thats what i think - that they are equal but not the same person. The last forum i was on i said that Jesus isnt God and i meant not the same person and this girl on there pmd me and told me i might get in trouble for saying that and that Jesus is the son of God. I didnt understand why. Until now...but its still confusing.

But something u said leads me to another question...When you said this 'God the Father was not walking around on earth as a human being...' I know he wasnt like Jesus was and coming to Earth for the same purpose and being a 'mortal', and you probably just said that as a reference to what you were talking about, but i tend to process things literally...lol

So heres my question - - - Genesis states that:

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:8

So that means that at one time for sure he did walk on the Earth among us?
Im sorry im just trying to understand. I know everyone processes everything a little differently. Id love to get some other thoughts on this.



bob97 -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/28/2008 8:29:37 PM)

Hi Thessa...

God is Spirit and without form. God in invisible and no man has ever seen God. The form of God that appeared in the garden and all down through the Old Testament was actually the Pre incarnate Jesus Christ who is the visible image of the invisible God.


Colossians 1:15-17 ( KJV ) 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Bob



MrFribbles -> RE: God the Father, God The Son (Jesus), Jesus the man (8/28/2008 10:17:46 PM)

quote:

Im sorry im just trying to understand.


First, let me assure you that's nothing to apologize for. God loves it when we want to learn more about Him.

quote:

So heres my question - - - Genesis states that:

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Genesis 3:8

So that means that at one time for sure he did walk on the Earth among us?


That's a good question, and one I think we'll have to wait until heaven to know for sure about. One thing to consider, though, is that God dealt very differently with Adam and Eve than He does with us. Even the next generation, Cain and Abel, didn't experience God in the same ways.
It's very difficult to discern anything definite in the little details of the creation narrative. As an example - nowhere does it say Satan was present in this event, only a talking serpent. How are we to understand that, especially since, according to most historians, the idea of Satan as a unique, spiritual, evil being did not arise until around the time of the Babylonian exile, which was long, long, long after Genesis was written down. All that to say, you'll get lots of answers from different people (like bob above me), and I think that's a healthy thing. God doesn't mind us having different theories, as long as none of them contradict essential truths of who He is.



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