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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/29/2008 2:05:29 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3924
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
It is a tragedy, and the chlidren are the ones suffering for it. The poor pitiful taxpayer hardly has any room to complain, imho. The kids you resent helping provide for, they are the ones deserving of pity!
It would be different if we were complaining about being responsible for someone else's pet, but we are talking human people here.
Once again, we are not blaming the children, nor are we saying that we should let them starve.
Once again, we are talking about children who do not exist, and whether these parents should be deliberately conceiving more children.
Once again, we are not talking about falling on occasional hard times, or an accidental pregnancy.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/30/2008 12:42:11 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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sorry, "breeding " was a poor choice of words. I apologize.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 7:42:34 AM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 154
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
When a married couple knows for a fact up-front that they personally do not have the means (financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically) to properly care for/raise children or additional children...the decision should be made not to have any or not to have any more.
How would you advise a family to put this in practice if they believe that life begins at conception (as opposed to implantation) and therefore do not believe in using forms of birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilizeed egg? Birth control pills are out.
IF hormonal birth control is not an option for the couple who is in a bad financial situation, there is still a possibility they may get pregnant again in that situation. Maybe even more than once.
Financial situations can improve. A couple in their twenties may not be financially successful for various reasons. Starting out in life, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, working hard, going through school, trying to work your way out of poverty can be difficult. Permanant birth control for a young couple who is struggling isn't a good solution, either, because in five years or ten they may be more than able to afford more children.
We had a lot of children when we were very young and poor, and now we are doing fairly well.
I guess my response to this would be: No one has to get married at 17 
Seriously, my grandparents were children of the depression and they waited years to get married, until my grandfather had a reasonable expectation that he could support his new wife and any children who might come along.
Lisa, I don't want this to seem like an attack on you but you put your own situation out there and ask " what would you suggest a couple do.."
So if my 17 year old daughter doesn't believe in reliable BC, wants to be a SAHM and is in love with a nice boy who still has years of schooling ahead of him...to me it is a no-brainer.
You wait until you can afford to support a large family and then you get married.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 8:24:46 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3924
Joined: 4/12/2005
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*Please note, 10NSEI is not suggesting that Lisa's children should never have been born. She is merely stating what advice she would give to a 17 year old daughter in this situation.
If a couple is unwilling to use the Pill, then many women simply use condom backup during times when she is actually fertile, thus eliminating the infinitesimal chances of an early abortion. If a woman cannot handle artificial hormones, then there are still very reliable ways of preventing conception without sterilization.
But if the couple does not want to do any of those, and both are not in a good financial state, then I'd give the same advice to wait. Even if the boy had a good job, I'd still advise to wait until my daughter had a means of supporting herself. A wife should be able to support herself and her children if tragedy of some sort strikes her family.
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 8:46:03 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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From: United States of America
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Good post, Sideways.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 9:29:38 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
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One of the reasons OT scripture encouraged people to have a quiver full of children is because by the time they were 10 years old they were not only able to provide food for themselves but contribute financially to the entire family.
My question is. How many of you QF's have children who are self supporting by the time they are 10?
If someone because a widow and they had children ages 8, 10 and 12 they had a "means of support".....can you say that today?
Hey Deb!!! Great post!!!
We are to rasie children to be adults not moochers off of society.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 9:37:38 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
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quote:
However, if you have a married couple then there is really no biblical way to absolutely prevent another child.
Are you saying that the bible "commands" a married couple to have sexual intercourse? (there are many ways to get sexual satisfaction without actual intercourse)
My grandmother was told that "if" she were to get pregnant again she "would die". No doubt about it.
What about when a spouse has AIDS? Do you believe God commands a husband to have sex with that wife with that disease?
Notice the OT laws and the number of times a couple was to reframe from sexual intercourse. Some couples could not have intercourse because of a number of reasons stated in scripture. (remember back then they also didn't have all the medical advances we have today)
Many people today live in "cronic" pain and are unable to have "sexual intercourse".
There are MANY ways to have sex that does not equal the possibility to creating pregnance.
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/2/2008 10:04:44 AM >
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 11:19:07 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3035
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
One of the reasons OT scripture encouraged people to have a quiver full of children is because by the time they were 10 years old they were not only able to provide food for themselves but contribute financially to the entire family.
I would also bet that back then, due to unchecked and untreatable childhood illness/disease, many children did not survive infancy/childhood, thus the need for a QF.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/2/2008 9:34:08 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1393
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: an ignoble beginning
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
One of the reasons OT scripture encouraged people to have a quiver full of children is because by the time they were 10 years old they were not only able to provide food for themselves but contribute financially to the entire family. do you have actual biblical support for this? Because I am pretty sure that God merely said to have children and to see them as a blessing and an inheritance. Nothing about put the little boogers to work get them to provide for the family. In fact...in Jewish tradition..while they helped in the family business...the boys were educated at school in the mornings until they were about 12/13 and the girls were taught at home until the same ages....they were taught Scripture and tradition.
quote:
My question is. How many of you QF's have children who are self supporting by the time they are 10?
If someone because a widow and they had children ages 8, 10 and 12 they had a "means of support".....can you say that today?
My children, while not able to be a means of support individually at those ages, are able to contribute to the family. They can all cook, clean, take care of younger children etc by the ages you mentioned. While I work...they can take on some of the household duties. If I take in childcare...they assist me in the care of those young ones (I am the one responsible...they are my assitants...."play buddies"). My oldest children (who are now 17, and 15) were making significant wages cleaning house for other people at the ages of 11 and 12.
so yes...we can say that today...if parents train their children as they come up rather than waiting for some "miracle age" where they will get some responsibility.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/3/2008 9:48:32 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5139
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
When a married couple knows for a fact up-front that they personally do not have the means (financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically) to properly care for/raise children or additional children...the decision should be made not to have any or not to have any more.
How would you advise a family to put this in practice if they believe that life begins at conception (as opposed to implantation) and therefore do not believe in using forms of birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilizeed egg? Birth control pills are out.
IF hormonal birth control is not an option for the couple who is in a bad financial situation, there is still a possibility they may get pregnant again in that situation. Maybe even more than once.
Financial situations can improve. A couple in their twenties may not be financially successful for various reasons. Starting out in life, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, working hard, going through school, trying to work your way out of poverty can be difficult. Permanant birth control for a young couple who is struggling isn't a good solution, either, because in five years or ten they may be more than able to afford more children.
We had a lot of children when we were very young and poor, and now we are doing fairly well.
I guess my response to this would be: No one has to get married at 17
Seriously, my grandparents were children of the depression and they waited years to get married, until my grandfather had a reasonable expectation that he could support his new wife and any children who might come along.
Lisa, I don't want this to seem like an attack on you but you put your own situation out there and ask " what would you suggest a couple do.."
So if my 17 year old daughter doesn't believe in reliable BC, wants to be a SAHM and is in love with a nice boy who still has years of schooling ahead of him...to me it is a no-brainer.
You wait until you can afford to support a large family and then you get married.
Deb, I wasn't putting my own situation out there. That's not my situation. We're not planning on having anymore children. I'm talking about many, many people who, when they marry, are not in the best of circumstances, and they work hard and their situations improve as they get older. I think of my own parents, who when they married, used a cardboard box as a dining room table and now operate a sucessful book binding business. I know many, many other examples along the same lines.
It is unreasonable to suggest to newlyweds to sterilze themselves before they've had a chance to improve their situation and have children. It's also not always a good idea to wait until they've made their fortunes to start birthing babies. It takes awhile--many people don't actually get to the place where they are financially independent until they are middle aged.
And if they want to wait awhile to get settled, if they have any convictions about aspects of birth control, they are very limited in the kinds of birth control they can use, and they happen to be some of the least reliable.
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Bonky
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 1:15:06 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3035
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
People have said things like the following:
quote:
When a married couple knows for a fact up-front that they personally do not have the means (financially, spiritually, physically, mentally or psychologically) to properly care for/raise children or additional children...the decision should be made not to have any or not to have any more.
It wasn't "people" who said it it was me and perhaps I need to readdress it and add: "or postpone having them until they are better equipped to raise them."
quote:
Situations change. I know people who have postponed having children until they were financially "ready" and then lost everything. I've known others who got pregnant while their husband was unable to work and they were living with parents, but by the time the child was 2 years old were in a secure job.
I am going to address my personal situation, because I've been criticized a few times for having children while I was on food stamps. We were only on food stamps for a short amount of time. Only one time did I get pregnant while we were on any sort of government aid, and we were actually trying not to. NFP takes a bit to get used to, and we weren't very good at it. By the time he was old enough that he was even eating much, we weren't on food stamps anymore anyway.
I'm not sorry at all we had our kids close together while we were still young. It's worked out really well for us. Our children are now a little older and we can afford to do fun things with them. I'm not going to be just starting out having babies at this stage in my life--I'm young enough still (I'll turn 30 in November) to have the energy to teach their homeschool ballet class and be active with them. I'll be in my 40's when they are all grown up and leave home. I'll have half of my life left to do other things. I'm thrilled I did it this way. It goes against conventional wisdom, but I'm glad this is the way it's worked out.
Again, no one here is criticized those who run into a bit of unforeseen financial difficulty and have to depend on the state (or the rest of us) for a short period to adequately care for their kids.
Again, It is when people know before they have their first or additional children that they can't afford them and/or are not equipped to raise them, and will have to depend on the state (or the rest of us) in order to care for them that burns people's britches.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 2:34:52 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 368
Joined: 8/22/2007
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I think in this day and age there is enough knowledge and options that a couple should be able to find some type of bc that works for them.
I don't think deciding on a family size is all about finances. I knew a family with six kids and yes I will say they probably should have stopped sooner. The husband had a very good paying job they just weren't very good with their money. The wife seemed to have the latest electronic equipment such as digital camera, laptop, latest cell phones etc. yet their youngest slept on a mattress in the hallway because she didn't have a bed or space in one of the bedrooms. She considered the hallway her bedroom. So finances don't always decide if a couple should continue to have children.
I have wondered how many couples were qf in the beginning with 2 or 3 children and then after 5 or so they start to question themselves. I know a few couples who were very vocal about being qf but one couple after 6 decided that was enough and used NFP because they still didn't believe in any form of artificial bc and then another where the wife had a tubal after number 8. I know this because I was close to them and they did tell me but I wonder how many do change and don't say that they have changed their stance on being qf.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 4:13:25 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5139
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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I think there are many varieties of QF.
I've been thinking about this while I was doing dishes (I'm not finished either, and I really need to get back to them, but I just wanted to stop and try and see if I could put my thoughts into words.
Many of you have said that if you can't afford kids, don't have them. It sounds easy, but it's not that simple. Birth control fails. Many, many people have had children they didn't specifically plan on having. So how can you know when you see a poor family with several children and mama is pregnant again that they were intentionally bringing children into the world? Do you ask them? Because I think it's a very personal topic. We might discuss these things in a forum, but IRL I don't ask my pregnant friends and family if their children were planned. I feel like it's none of my business. I wouldn't say, "Oh, wow, you're pregnant and your husband is out of work--did you do that on purpose or did your birth control fail?" That just seems so rude to me to ask.
And if I was the pregnant mother, even if the pregnancy was an oopsie, I wouldn't call it an oopsie, because with God, there are no oopsies. I wouldn't feel the need to apologize to everyone I see for the fact that I was pregnant. Nor would I feel the need to explain to everyone what kind of birth control I was using or if I was using any at all. And I certainly wouldn't feel the need to reassure everyone I met that no, I wasn't on welfare or apologize if I happened to be on welfare. It's no one else's business. Do you all really know who is having kids just to get extra food stamps from the government? You say you are angry with people who make you pay for their children, but do you know who these people are? How do you know you aren't angry at the wrong people? Someone may be the object of your anger because they are happily pregnant, and you may assume they did it on purpose, but they might not have.
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Bonky
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