RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Roe v Wade being overturned?
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 7:39:59 AM
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blue1914
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to how our judical systems works so bare with me when I ask alot of questions.  Are there judges up for election in the next 4 years and could they overturn it?
Well, that decision has to come from the Supreme Court. From a historical perspective, the odds of the SC overturning that ruling is slim to none unless there is a HUGE compromise to allow such a conservative swing to sit in the future.
That's actually not true at all. Remember, the U.S. government system is set up as a system of Checks and Balances. Each branch (executive, judicial and legislative) has it's own system in place to challenge and/or create (or sponsor) law.
Roe v. Wade was a Judicial PRECIDENT. JUDICIAL PRECIDENT is not law, but barring a law which conflicts with it, is treated as an interpretation of the Constitution (in other words, law by fiat). It can be overturned by a LAW coming from Congress which outlaws it-essentially "amending" the constitution (little "a" amend since all law is to be a virtual extension of the Constitution, though an actual Amendment could be introduced as well and it becomes a part of the Constitution document). The Executive branch (the president) would be forced then to enforce that law. If he felt the law to be unconstitutional in nature, he could ask the Judicial branch (the Supreme Court) to review the law-hence the checks and balances system.
Long and short-congress could have ended abortion long ago had they chosen to make it a serious enough issue. With majority Republican legislatures and Republican leaders for the majority of the over 30 years Roe v. Wade has been in existence, I wonder why there has been no serious legislative challenge to it IF the Republican party is truly "pro life".
BTW, the current sitting supreme court is about 7 to 2 appointed by Republican administrations with a very "strict constructionist" chief justice. Wonder why that has not made a difference on the significant abortion rights cases (many of which were not even heard) before the court?
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 8:16:21 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
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If McCain is elected into office, then there is a chance, because there will probably be two more judges against abortion. then it will be just a matter of them getting appointed (past the senate, which will take forever)...
now McCain's chances of getting elected, well, i am voting for him because he needs every vote he can get...honestly, a lot needs to be made done for him to get elected.
states issues??? since when does the sanctity of human life become a matter of the state? people being endowed with certain enalienable rights (life) is outside of the state's control, and should represent the union as a whole.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 8:50:57 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to how our judical systems works so bare with me when I ask alot of questions. Are there judges up for election in the next 4 years and could they overturn it?
Well, that decision has to come from the Supreme Court. From a historical perspective, the odds of the SC overturning that ruling is slim to none unless there is a HUGE compromise to allow such a conservative swing to sit in the future.
That's actually not true at all. Remember, the U.S. government system is set up as a system of Checks and Balances. Each branch (executive, judicial and legislative) has it's own system in place to challenge and/or create (or sponsor) law.
Roe v. Wade was a Judicial PRECIDENT. JUDICIAL PRECIDENT is not law, but barring a law which conflicts with it, is treated as an interpretation of the Constitution (in other words, law by fiat). It can be overturned by a LAW coming from Congress which outlaws it-essentially "amending" the constitution (little "a" amend since all law is to be a virtual extension of the Constitution, though an actual Amendment could be introduced as well and it becomes a part of the Constitution document). The Executive branch (the president) would be forced then to enforce that law. If he felt the law to be unconstitutional in nature, he could ask the Judicial branch (the Supreme Court) to review the law-hence the checks and balances system.
Long and short-congress could have ended abortion long ago had they chosen to make it a serious enough issue. With majority Republican legislatures and Republican leaders for the majority of the over 30 years Roe v. Wade has been in existence, I wonder why there has been no serious legislative challenge to it IF the Republican party is truly "pro life".
BTW, the current sitting supreme court is about 7 to 2 appointed by Republican administrations with a very "strict constructionist" chief justice. Wonder why that has not made a difference on the significant abortion rights cases (many of which were not even heard) before the court?
I am aware. My point was simplistic due to audience because, in truth, how many times in the past 50 years have we added an Amendment? The SC makes a decision, and that is it. If a state passes another law that goes against the SC decision, it gets struck down in time. Granted, there are checks and balances, but the odds of overcoming the SC decisions are minimal.
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Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 11:08:09 AM
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AdrianaS
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Thanks again!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually it was 46 states, and in order for the SC to invalidate state law across the board like that they have to find that those laws are contrary to a fundamental right of American citizens as enumerated in the Constitution. How they found the right to ‘abortion’ there is a rather long and detailed discussion, but even my liberal constitutional law professor agreed it was perhaps one of the most poorly argued Supreme Court opinions our there – and yet, the court doesn’t need a good argument, simply enough justices to uphold their opinion – which is why the balance of the court is a critical issue in this campaign.
Than even when something is poorly argued at SC it still can become law just like that? If the SC Jugdes were there just to interpreter the Constitution and if there is a "hole, blank, whatever" of some sorts they just agree with the attorney they have in front of them? How can that be there were not othe attorney representing the states who did not want the legality of abortion? How come there were not out cry from majority and they just decided to go before their SC with strong argument of themselves to revert the decision to make abortion legal in the states was already illegal?
Still dont understand why people did not get to vote for almost everything that affect their lives and consciences, and issues like abortion are decided by attorneys and judges. I dont get it particularly when it was 40 years ago and USA were still majority Christian nation, I think. Now after 40 years and almost 50 million abortions done it seems at least to me when abortion is legal and viewed as a "fundamental right" among other rights, given to them by the SC system interpreting the constitution and cannot reverse it, there is something wrong as there are "holes" in the constitution that allows poorly argued "all sorts of cases to win" and new laws are made.
Another thing: if President has veto, Legislative has veto does SC has veto too? One can veto each other as the powers have healthy layers, to give time to society react and ask a power to veto another power in the name of society who does not agree with decision of one of the powers? Or at least stop the process (I have in mind the abortion ruling at that time) for them to reflect and cast votes and the people decide for themselves?
quote:
Actually, to a certain degree, what we have with the two parties is two ends of a pendulum between which our country is constantly swinging. On one hand we have those who are concerned about the fundamental rule of law as outlined in the Constitution (the basis of our Republic, thus ‘Republican’) and on the other hand we have those who think our country should be ever changing in response to the current political sentiment, or a Democratic view of our country. Interestingly, they are really factions of what was once one party, they parted ways on the slavery issue – Lincoln was the first Republican President.
I do starting to think that I cannot grab the 2 parties that are mostly in power in USA because I am a foreigner...I think. This pendulum situation going from one to another and the history behind them etc dont reflect my sentiment or my standings because there are too many divisions and layers and standings as pendulums inside ach party. I would wish USA already had a historical 3rd party moderate and inside it the pendulum would have not the same banner those 2 party carry already and are known for as conservative and liberal, pro-life, pro-choice - I supose. I dont agree with both party in their standings as generaly do not choose to vote for parties in US the way they are still, but would vote in a candidate, but there are no condidate I wish to vote between the 2 there are now. I have no attachments with none of them at all, as their patterns quilt looks has much history between them both in the now history they do not represent in themselves, "my" USA.
Thanks again.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 11:15:15 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'd have to agree with cow451 on this one.
I actually generally agree with cow (little known real name - Poindexter Snugglefish), but in this case his analysis is a bit simplistic. The next President will almost certainly appoint a justice - and the sort of justice appointed will make a significant difference on the abortion issue as well as many others.
Thank you, Mr. Ventura. The Poindexter Analysis Induction Nexus (PAIN) usually leads to the least typing.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 12:09:57 PM
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ljmac
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All pro-life justices were appointed by Republicans.
Democrats appoint only pro-abortion justices and block pro-life justices.
Republican Ford was non elected and was pro Death Roe. He was just like a Democrat so getting a pro-abortion justice from him was exactly what you'd expect.
The SC has wrongly found a Constitution Right to an abortion. The legislative and executive branches cannot pass laws that take constitutional rights, fake ones or otherwise.
The gang of 14 killed Democrat's filibusters against pro-life justices.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 12:22:28 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1542
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From: Northern IL
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quote:
Long and short-congress could have ended abortion long ago had they chosen to make it a serious enough issue. With majority Republican legislatures and Republican leaders for the majority of the over 30 years Roe v. Wade has been in existence, I wonder why there has been no serious legislative challenge to it IF the Republican party is truly "pro life".
This is what I'm always wondering. If so many want to overturned why hasn't it been?
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 12:30:31 PM
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rcjames
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Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Roe v Wade being overturned?
I agree with slim and none.
But it will be held in check and not be made free and unlimited as the baby killing lefties want.
Partial birt abortion will be a thing of the past, and so will the infanticide that B. Hussein Obama pushes so hard for.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/3/2008 12:31:30 PM
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blue1914
Posts: 407
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
All pro-life justices were appointed by Republicans.
Democrats appoint only pro-abortion justices and block pro-life justices.
Republican Ford was non elected and was pro Death Roe. He was just like a Democrat so getting a pro-abortion justice from him was exactly what you'd expect.
The SC has wrongly found a Constitution Right to an abortion. The legislative and executive branches cannot pass laws that take constitutional rights, fake ones or otherwise.
The gang of 14 killed Democrat's filibusters against pro-life justices.
You might bone up on your civics here-passing the laws is the job of the Legislature, interpreting them the job of the SC. WITH a Constitutional amendment, any type of right can be legislated-don't believe me, look at Prohibition (and it's subsequent repeal).
Barring a law or constitutional amendment, Judicial precedent will be used in interpreting the law, but a LAW-concrete, written law-will overrule precedent any day. Roe v. Wade has stood because no one has taken the time to stand up to it-with a LAW.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 1:32:49 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
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quote:
You might bone up on your civics here-passing the laws is the job of the Legislature, interpreting them the job of the SC. WITH a Constitutional amendment, any type of right can be legislated-don't believe me, look at Prohibition (and it's subsequent repeal).
Barring a law or constitutional amendment, Judicial precedent will be used in interpreting the law, but a LAW-concrete, written law-will overrule precedent any day. Roe v. Wade has stood because no one has taken the time to stand up to it-with a LAW.
Roe v. Wade overode 46 different laws against abortion - how do you suggest a law be crafted to oppose this ruling that asn't already been tried?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 2:16:37 AM
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gdrumm
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Joined: 8/12/2005
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I don't think that is necessarily true. It really is smells more of pandering than anything. He wants the conservatives to swoon and thinks women will go ga-ga over a pair of ovaries. It doesn't have to do with the issues and really says nothing about what he will do if he were able to get elected. Even if he were serious about pro-life issues (which he might be, who knows), it would be very difficult with a Democratic controlled congress and the fact that even not all the Republicans in Congress are hard line conservatives.
Yeah, and had he picked Lieberman he would be accused of pandering to win middle-of-the-road voters. Bottom line, everyone thinks the other candidate is 'pandering'.
And the Senate sits on a knife edge; guess who would get the tie-breaking vote?
Man, I'd love to take back the Senate...
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The views and opinions of this post do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 2:23:28 AM
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gdrumm
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From: Texas
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Sadly, even if RvW was overturned tomorrow, it wouldn't change anything other than placing the power to make laws concerning abortion back into the hands of the States, which is where it belongs. Roe was an extremely poor decision not for the moral content, but it was simply bad interpretation and misapplication of the 14th ammendment. and a so-called "right to privacy", which doesn't actually exist.
The fact is, if logic and dilligence prevails, privacy does not trump one's right to live. Otherwise someone could be murdering me in their basement, but claim a right to privacy somehow grants them the right to take my life.
When Roe is overturned, which it will be eventually, then the States must go forth and do what they feel they should do with regards to abortion. If, however; we can make a strong case as a society, and begin to seriously outcast these politicians who are abortion proponents, then we may be able to pass a Right To Life ammendment, which would guarantee an unborn child's right to live.
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The views and opinions of this post do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 7:28:39 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1072
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
John, there is a reason Harry Reid, a Democrat, is called the Senate majority leader - remember 2006. Please, be real
Yes because he's in the Senate not the House. Congress doesn't vote for Supreme Court judges, remember civics?
quote:
What does your second point matter if the Dems are in control anyway?
Their control is tenuous... Are you aware of the make up of the Senate? And that two Independents swing control to the Democrats and one of them spoke at the Republican Convention...
1) Um, I mentioned the Senate Majority Leader - you know, the Senate votes for the SCJs. And when your party has someone as the Senate Majority Leader, guess what that means?!
2) Yup, I'm aware of it - are you? Both of the independents are pro-choice. So, what was your point on the make-up of the Senate, in the context of approving SCJ appointments again?
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 9/4/2008 7:39:54 AM >
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 5:38:31 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
All pro-life justices were appointed by Republicans.
Democrats appoint only pro-abortion justices and block pro-life justices.
Republican Ford was non elected and was pro Death Roe. He was just like a Democrat so getting a pro-abortion justice from him was exactly what you'd expect.
The SC has wrongly found a Constitution Right to an abortion. The legislative and executive branches cannot pass laws that take constitutional rights, fake ones or otherwise.
The gang of 14 killed Democrat's filibusters against pro-life justices.
You might bone up on your civics here-passing the laws is the job of the Legislature, interpreting them the job of the SC. WITH a Constitutional amendment, any type of right can be legislated-don't believe me, look at Prohibition (and it's subsequent repeal).
Barring a law or constitutional amendment, Judicial precedent will be used in interpreting the law, but a LAW-concrete, written law-will overrule precedent any day. Roe v. Wade has stood because no one has taken the time to stand up to it-with a LAW.
It took years just to make it possible for states to ban one form of abortion, stabbing babies and sucking their brains out. Even after that, Democrats across the land have successfully fought attempts at the state level to ban partial-birth abortion.
Your proposal, while correct according to the text book, is fantasy. It isn't realistic.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 5:43:53 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blue1914
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
All pro-life justices were appointed by Republicans.
Democrats appoint only pro-abortion justices and block pro-life justices.
Republican Ford was non elected and was pro Death Roe. He was just like a Democrat so getting a pro-abortion justice from him was exactly what you'd expect.
The SC has wrongly found a Constitution Right to an abortion. The legislative and executive branches cannot pass laws that take constitutional rights, fake ones or otherwise.
The gang of 14 killed Democrat's filibusters against pro-life justices.
You might bone up on your civics here-passing the laws is the job of the Legislature, interpreting them the job of the SC. WITH a Constitutional amendment, any type of right can be legislated-don't believe me, look at Prohibition (and it's subsequent repeal).
Barring a law or constitutional amendment, Judicial precedent will be used in interpreting the law, but a LAW-concrete, written law-will overrule precedent any day. Roe v. Wade has stood because no one has taken the time to stand up to it-with a LAW.
And you might want to bone up on history.
The SC decision in 1896 case of Plessy v Ferguson made "separate but equal" segregation the law of the land in the same way Roe v Wade made abortion legal. In 1954 the SC overturned "Separate but Equal" in the case of Brown v Board of Education.
NO LEGISLATION IN EITHER CASE. BOTH DECIDED BY JUDICIAL FIAT.
It took 58 years... but it happened. The same fate could befall Roe v Wade.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/4/2008 8:35:39 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1072
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
1) Um, I mentioned the Senate Majority Leader - you know, the Senate votes for the SCJs. And when your party has someone as the Senate Majority Leader, guess what that means?!
You first posted...
There is a Democrat-controlled Congress, John. And McCain does have that little agreement with the Gang of 14.
quote:
Yup, I'm aware of it - are you?
Of course I posted it...
quote:
Both of the independents are pro-choice. So, what was your point on the make-up of the Senate, in the context of approving SCJ appointments again?
Their control is tenuous...
1) And? A Democrat-controlled Congress means control of both House and Senate. So?
2) and 3) I think you're ignoring my point on purpose. A Democrat- controlled Senate + the fact that the two independent Senators (in your 'tenuous' arguement) are pro-choice = no chance of pro-life SCJs under McCain, if he is elected. Not to mention, what will have been, his previous affiliation with the Gang of 14.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/5/2008 12:09:22 AM
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Lizahana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
1) And? A Democrat-controlled Congress means control of both House and Senate. So?
 The House has zero to do with Supreme Court judges being affirmed...
quote:
2) and 3) I think you're ignoring my point on purpose. A Democrat- controlled Senate + the fact that the two independent Senators (in your 'tenuous' arguement) are pro-choice = no chance of pro-life SCJs under McCain, if he is elected. Not to mention, what will have been, his previous affiliation with the Gang of 14.
Their control is tenuous... It could shift... And we know from the past that not all appointments work out they way people think they will... So for you to say no chance ignores even part of your past argument to some degree...
1) John, the Democrats control Congress, this also means the Democrats control the Senate, since we all know, the Senate is half of Congress. To me, 1) is true - how is it not true? Please elaborate how, the Democrats can have majority control over Congress - and this somehow means they do not control the Senate.
2) Mmmm...Don't think so - even if the Dems lose control, McCain has the Gang of 14 history, he has tried to change the Republicans platform to include the 3 cases (that abortion be legal only in cases of rape, incest, mothers life endangerment) - so, I disagree...
Peace and God bless,
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/5/2008 12:14:37 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
1) John, I thought that when I said the Democrats controlled Congress, this also means the Democrats control the Senate, since we all know, the Senate is half of Congress.. To me, 1) is true - how is it not true? Please elaborate how, if I say the Democrats control Congress - this somehow means they do not control the Senate.
2) Mmmm...Don't think so - even if the Dems lose control, McCain has the Gang of 14 history, he has tried to change the Republicans platform to include the 3 cases (that abortion be legal only in cases of rape, incest, mothers life endangerment) - so, I disagree...
Actually, from the perspective of judicial appointments on the SC, exceptions and the presumed gang of 14 really isn't relevant - a court would either rule for or against a law challenging Roe, and then it would go back to the states - McCain and Congress really would have nothing to say about it at that point.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/5/2008 12:25:30 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
1) Um, I mentioned the Senate Majority Leader - you know, the Senate votes for the SCJs. And when your party has someone as the Senate Majority Leader, guess what that means?!
You first posted...
There is a Democrat-controlled Congress, John. And McCain does have that little agreement with the Gang of 14.
quote:
Yup, I'm aware of it - are you?
Of course I posted it...
quote:
Both of the independents are pro-choice. So, what was your point on the make-up of the Senate, in the context of approving SCJ appointments again?
Their control is tenuous...
1) And? A Democrat-controlled Congress means control of both House and Senate. So?
2) and 3) I think you're ignoring my point on purpose. A Democrat- controlled Senate + the fact that the two independent Senators (in your 'tenuous' arguement) are pro-choice = no chance of pro-life SCJs under McCain, if he is elected. Not to mention, what will have been, his previous affiliation with the Gang of 14.
Peace and God bless,
Do you not know that the Senate changes every two years? The Senate today will be different than the one we have in Jan 2009 and different again in Jan 2011. Your hopefulness for a pro-abortion senate does not make it so.
The gang of 14 resulted in breaking the Democrats filibuster against pro-life justices. Somehow you think that was an anti-life position.
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RE: If McCain becomes president, what are chances of Ro... - 9/5/2008 1:43:09 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
1) John, the Democrats control Congress, this also means the Democrats control the Senate, since we all know, the Senate is half of Congress. To me, 1) is true - how is it not true? Please elaborate how, the Democrats can have majority control over Congress - and this somehow means they do not control the Senate.
Keep spinning it...
quote:
2) Mmmm...Don't think so - even if the Dems lose control, McCain has the Gang of 14 history, he has tried to change the Republicans platform to include the 3 cases (that abortion be legal only in cases of rape, incest, mothers life endangerment) - so, I disagree...
If can't happen how did judges get appointed that didn't vote they way people thought they would?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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Anyway, good night. 
