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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 5:04:55 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 5:06:58 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:07:28 PM
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earthless
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emerging,
Also, a question I always pose to the extreme pacifists believers - if you're at the parking lot of your local Target/Wal-mart.. and a man approaches your family. Starts to beat and rape your wife and kids.. what will you do?
Also, war is sometimes a necessary evil. It is not something to glorify or want.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:08:54 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You think it's impossible to go to war with a nation and not love them as God loves? You need to check your "religion" again.
As one who served in the military I am trying to imagine a soldier saying, "I'm killing you for your own good."
Or, how is this for an image: We should have spray painted "Jesus Loves You" on the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
Do you also have a problem with Christian police officers? Christian judges sentencing people and altering their lives? Christian teachers ruling over their students?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:12:58 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
What does Jesus command us to do to and for our enemies? And, what does Jesus command one to do when struck?
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was speaking of interpersonal relations NOT relations between nations. When Jesus spoke of nations going to war against other nation in war, did he condem those actions? NO
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:16:12 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You think it's impossible to go to war with a nation and not love them as God loves? You need to check your "religion" again.
As one who served in the military I am trying to imagine a soldier saying, "I'm killing you for your own good."
Or, how is this for an image: We should have spray painted "Jesus Loves You" on the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
As a veteran - a volunteer - of over 9 years, mostly during the Vietnam era, I have no trouble whatsoever being a Christian in or out of war. If you do, then I guess it's better for you to stay on the sidelines and wonder how that could be.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:19:27 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
What does Jesus command us to do to and for our enemies? And, what does Jesus command one to do when struck?
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was speaking of interpersonal relations NOT relations between nations. When Jesus spoke of nations going to war against other nation in war, did he condem those actions? NO
As a matter of fact, He used soldiers to make a point without any condemnation at all. It's the "Second Mile" lesson.
And poor old Paul, he seemed almost stuck on military analogies - putting on the whole armor, fighting the good fight, and even allusions to boxing and wrestling.
Baaad Paul.
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 5:42:10 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 5:51:11 PM
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JimboFletch
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To ease your troubled mind:
War is sometimes necessary in an evil world.
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 5:55:16 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 6:00:12 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Also, war is sometimes a necessary evil.
ahhh, finally.
A "necessary evil." Is God the perpetrator of evil?
Violence has been the default mode since Cain. Our world is enraptured by it. We have been living under the myth of redemptive violence for soooo long that we cannot imagine another way. Jesus came to show that way. His laying down of his life unmasked this myth of redemptive violence for what it was - a sham. It is evil. War is evil.
Is it sometimes necessary? Perhaps. But never, ever, ever is it to be confused with being the will of God or that it describes the heart of God.
Before we keep going further with our discussion, it would be wise to touch upon some of the other underlying items at play here. Many people make the mistake of believing the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” and seek to apply this command to war. However, the Bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).
The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice.”
God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11).
So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable.
Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.
War is a terrible thing! War is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2).
Your comments about God never ordering war is untrue. Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - as the LORD your God has commanded you.”
Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation."
Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” So, obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).
Jesus’ Second Coming also is exceedingly violent. See Revelation 19:11-21...
It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes a war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions of Jews would have been killed?
If the Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African Americans have had to suffer as slaves?
We must all remember to base our beliefs of the Bible, not on our emotions (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin.
Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 6:00:41 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 6:06:56 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 6:25:15 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 7:09:28 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6), He was not, and is not, a pacifist.
To those who would agree with this I think one very important thing needs to first be understood: Pacifism does not mean weakness or even rolling over and playing dead. It does not mean Jesus or those who practice pacifism (Ghandi, MLK, etc) are not radical, revolutionary or subversive. It simply means they are committed to non-violence.
To those who say Jesus was not and is not a pacifist I have just two questions: What does Jesus command us to do to and for our enemies? And, what does Jesus command one to do when struck?
After answering those questions how do you reconcile this Jesus with your war hungry God?grace and peace.
emerging,
You're making a common hermenuetical error. Yes, Jesus tells us to love and forgive our enemies, but He is speaking to individuals. You and I are to turn the other cheek. You and I are commanded not to seek an eye for an eye. However, when God originally gave the "eye for an eye" command, it was not to individuals, it was given as part of the civil law. Governments have different responsibilities than do individuals. When necessary governments wage war. When necessary governments impose criminal penalties that fit the crime (eye for an eye).
You say that we are setting up God to be war hungry. He is not. He does, however, command His people to conduct war. Many times He sent them out to war, but it was God Himself who fought and won the battles. All the Jews had to do was show up and witness His awesome power. When God did command His nation to go to battle it was not a kinder gentler war as you suggested in one of your posts. On many occasions He commanded the Israelites to utterly eradicate their enemy - men, woman, and children.
Emergents, including McLaren, claim that evangelicals are unwilling to deal with difficult passages of Scripture that don't fit their tightly packaged understanding of God. This topic reveals that emergents are the ones unwilling to deal honestly with those Scriptures that don't fit their theology.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 9/9/2008 7:22:21 PM >
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 7:28:43 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
If Jesus is not a pacifist then what would you say he is?
The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. In these verses he doesn’t sound like a pacifist
Matt 10:32 - 39 (HCSB) 32“Therefore, everyone who will acknowledge Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father in heaven.£ 33But whoever denies Me before men,£ I will also deny him before My Father in heaven. 34Don’t assume that I came to bring peace on the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.£ 35For I came to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.£ £
Rev 6:15 - 17 (HCSB) 15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.£ 16And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17because the great day of Their£ wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”£
Rev 14:9 - 12 (HCSB) 9And a third angel£ followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger.£ He will be tormented with fire and sulfur£ in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb, 11and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever.£ There is no rest£ day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name. 12Here is the endurance£ £ of the saints,£ who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.”£
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 7:35:32 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
How do you reconcile that statement with his sermon on the mount?
The Sermon on the Mount was/is the guide for interpersonal relationships. Which nations were present at the sermon?
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 7:38:42 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Your students were partly right.
Mush-
Isn't this the whole point? McLaren acknowledges that evangelicals are "partly" right. Part of his mission (and I assume yours and mine) is to not be satisfied with Christians being just "partly right" (which can alsom mean they are "partly wrong") but in the process of loving God with all our minds we do not negate or leave out the other parts we have for so long been missing. This is why McLaren emphasizes some things that sound so foreign to many American evangelicals and gets accussed of jettisoning everything they have known their whole lives. That is not what he is doing and to read him that way is to misread him. He is accenting things that are also "partially right" which help add some fullness or completeness to what my students and most of the american church already possess.
As for the OP - McLaren is NOT saying there is no such thing as life after death or that Jesus NEVER speaks about it. It is just silly for people like jazzact and others to get all upset over his desire to help the church recognize that it is THAT as well as so much more.
peace.
emerging,
where does McLaren ever say evangelicals are partly right? Also, I ask again for some evidence of this alleged evangelical disregard for entire elements of the Gospel? Remember, many involved in this very discussion are evangelicals and none have taken the position that you claim is so fundamental to evangelical thinking.
I posted a series of quotes from McLaren on either the "emerging church" or "Rob Bell" thread (page 8; I think post #198) that demonstrates how his theology is brand new. IOW's he acknowledges his theology is a jettisoning of everything the church has taught throughout it's history.
You are right that McLaren doesn't reject the idea of a future paradise, but his beliefs about eternity are undeniably unBiblical.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 8:23:50 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
As one who served from 1993-2001 in the US Navy, you are welcome, I guess
Who is dissing anyone?
You are. You are enjoying the freedoms, such as freedom of speech, that was given to you by people who fought in wars (American Revolutionary War, Civil War, World War II), and you are using that freedom of speech to tell us that war is never a thing Christians should be involved in.
Perhaps you were in the military, but you must excuse me if I remind myself that, so was John Kerry. Some honor the uniform, some don't. Which are you?
As someone who tried but failed to meet the requirements for the military, and who has family who have been a part of it, I try to honor it.
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 8:36:11 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 8:38:42 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 8:40:11 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 8:47:31 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
As a church, our position is to be one of committment to nonviolence.
And exactly where is this stated? And I am sure Barney is part of your church! And I am sure the non-violence promise excluded babies in their mother's womb?
And you have not refuted the scripture quotes I provided about Jesus NOT being a pacifist!
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 8:49:36 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
The government is not the church
Then why does the church usurp so much of the church's duties?
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 8:54:20 PM
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