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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 8:56:31 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:11:35 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
What does Jesus say we are to do to our enemies? What are you talking about? Barney? Babies?
Barney: the liberal church’s mantra of “I love you, you love me, were a happy family”
Babies: the liberal church embraces “a woman’s right to choose” an operation that take a baby and turns into puree. In the partial birth abortion embraced by the Messiah, a baby has her skull drilled through, her brains suckled out, and her skull crushed. But pacifists fully support this action
quote:
What does Jesus say we are to do to our enemies?
As individuals we to love them and pray for them; Jesus was not speaking to the nation of Israel!
Then why does the church usurp so much of the church's duties? The chuch has ceeded to the government the mandate to take of the poor and to look after widows and orphans in their distress. By doing this the government has created generations of individuals who believe government owes them a living.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:21:21 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Do you also have a problem with Christian police officers? Christian judges sentencing people and altering their lives? Christian teachers ruling over their students?
The Christians writing for the first 300 years of the church DID have a problem with this. They answered, simply, Christians should have no part in any system that uses violence. Soldiers who converted faced a tough decision. Many of them were put to the sword because they refused to fight.
When Christianity came under state sanctions by Constantine things began to change. People began to legitimatize certain actions because the "state" became synonomous with "God." What the "Christian Empire" did was seen as being done for "God." Funny how things today are much the same as they were then.
Jesus Christ had no problem with the Roman soldiers He spoke to and ministered to. Never once did He mention that their occupation was ill and conflicting with His message.
I am sorry you believe Christians should not police officers, teachers, judges, doctors (health care can be violent) - we should leave those professions and responsibilities for those that are not born-again, that do not fear and love the Lord.
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 9:22:04 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:23:15 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Jesus is not a pacifist
Earthless, with all due respect how can you say that when Jesus himself refutes you at nearly every turn? How do you reconcile that statement with his sermon on the mount? If Jesus is not a pacifist then what would you say he is?
Please feel free to address the Scripture and context I have already shared. And please also my question regarding the Target/Wal-Mart situation, thank you.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:27:42 PM
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earthless
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emerging,
Here it is again if you missed it the first time:
A question I always pose to the extreme pacifists believers: if you're at the parking lot of your local Target/Wal-Mart.. and a man approaches your family. Starts to beat and rape your wife and kids.. what will you do?
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 9:29:53 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/9/2008 9:33:31 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:39:23 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that. Jesus didn't do a lot of things while he was here on earth.
Jesus did not abolish the Old Testament, He fulfilled it. Also, the point is quite clear to any reader - it is an honorable thing to serve mankind, to protect the innocent and serve those in need. Sorry you feel it is wrong/conflicting for a Christian to be the professions I listed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I never said I do not believe...
What I said was that for the first 300 years of the church that was what everyone believed - and they took it seriously.
We don't live in a black and white world, earthless.
When it comes to God's Word - it's core essentials are indeed absolute. Absolute truth for all of mankind, do you agree with that statement? I know a lot of my friends in the Emergent circles are very uncomfortable agreeing with that clear and biblically correct statement.
What the churches agreed upon for its first 300 years does not trump Scripture.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/9/2008 9:40:35 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
If I was arguing that our government or any other was a "Christian" gov't. than you would have a point. I am not. I am arguing from the standpoint of the church. As a church, our position is to be one of committment to nonviolence. We are to be that voice in the darkness that speaks out against the dominations systems of war and violence of any sort. Will gov'ts wage war? Sure they will. Are some wars even necessary to prevent the further spread of evil (like Hitler)? Sure. But that does not give us the right to call war "just" or say it is of God's will. It is simply a lesser evil. Itt does not negate our call as a church to pray and hope for a world in which these systems are no longer needed - when we no longer believe the myth of redemptive violence.
What about Israel? They were a theocracy - a government under the direct leadership of God. God commanded them to go to war. Does that mean God is evil or resorts to committing sin to get His way?
quote:
I am not ducking them. I have said I would be more than happy to discuss them in turn and lay out a more comprehensive theology that does not minimize the OT nor negate the teachings of Jesus.
Any "comprehensive" theology that ignores much of what the Old and New Testaments have to say on an issue qualifies as ducking them.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 7:41:02 AM
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jazzact13
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quote:
It is all I can do to try to honor God. Last I checked he isn't under any particular flag.
Cop out.
As such, then, your refering to your military service is meaningless, because it's obvious you must view it with something like shame. If you don't, then you are inconsistent with your own current beliefs.
And every time you come on here, telling us that we have to be commited to your form of 'nonviolence', you spit in the faces and on the graves of those who did sacrifice to give you the freedom to do that to them.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:25:53 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 8:26:34 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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emerging,
Perhaps you keep missing my post to you because of the other ones. If so, here it is for the third time:
If you're at the parking lot of your local Target/Wal-Mart.. and a man approaches your family. Starts to beat and rape your wife and kids.. what will you do?
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:26:57 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:35:54 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 8:40:34 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
emerging,
Perhaps you keep missing my post to you because of the other ones. If so, here it is for the third time:
If you're at the parking lot of your local Target/Wal-Mart.. and a man approaches your family. Starts to beat and rape your wife and kids.. what will you do?
Sorry, earthless. In the barage of posts I have not been able to get to everything.
Your question is one of extremems. Surely you would grant that finding a "right answer" to difficult and complex theological situations are not best done in extremes.
As I said earlier, committment to nonviolence is not about rolling over and playing dead and allowing evil to run amok. In the face of the evil you describe I would obviously step in and attempt to intervene, even if that meant sacrificing my own life. I would do all in my power to avoid killing him (in this way we leave space for an evil person to one day repent of their wrongdoing).
There are no cookie-cutter answers, earthless. Did you or anyone read my post about walking the extra mile? Jesus calls us to be creative in our subversity of the powers of domination (and evil) in our world. With the aid of the Holy Spirit leading us into truth and as a church that gathers to pray for one another (INCLUDING our enemies!) we have a hope that we can be leaven in this world of violence - showing to a broken world the wounds of Jesus that lead to resurrection.
peace.
My question is not a complex theological one - it is a straight up question and situation that happens more often than you may want to admit.
The point is a simple one - it is your duty, as a Christian, to do the right thing. And protecting the well being and life of innocent people, especially your own family, is your utter obligation.
There are sins of commission and sins of omission. Many people who espouse the same points you do actually say that if their family was being harmed, they would do nothing. They would just stand there and start to pray.
Amazing, right?
It is a sin to do nothing when taking such an extreme and biblically skewed pacifist role. Jesus Himself did not toe the line you're preaching when He dealt with the problems and charlatans of His earthly time.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:45:55 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 8:51:06 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
To ease your troubled mind:
War is sometimes necessary in an evil world.
I appreciate your concern, Jimbo, but I'm fine, thanks.
Our committment as followers of Jesus Christ should always be to non-violence. Period. However YOU want to rationalize Jesus' message to ease your own troubled mind is your call. The answers to the two questions I have asked that you have dodged shine a spotlight on how much the church has rationalized the gospel.
peace.
It's not a troubled mind that is willing to lay down his life in defense of ones' family, friends, and country (kinda like what Jesus Himself said). Had my parent's generation listened to misguided blather like yours, we'd be speaking Japanese and/or German because nonviolence would have resulted in millions of more deaths and many more millions in slaves.
It's a poor scholar that thinks answering 2 overly simplistic questions from 66 books of God's written word can form the basis for a whole doctrine. It's the sort of thing one expects from a junior high student trying rattle his teachers.
The NT tells us that God gives the SWORD to governments. Swords have no non-violent purposes when used as designed. None.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:51:38 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:54:20 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 8:56:46 AM
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JimboFletch
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God ORDAINED governments and gave it the SWORD. Its use and His ordination indicates His approval.
Your statement is one of biblical ignorance.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 8:57:39 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:01:41 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:02:41 AM
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