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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:05:44 AM
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earthless
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Let me add, earthless: Your move above is one that Augustine made. Prior to his move there were many Christians who did hold that "amazing" viewpoint. You said earlier that the first 300 years of church history don't add up to scripture. I never said it did. However, it is a voice we ought to listen to as it is a core of people who were seeking to embody the teachings of Jesus Christ passed on to them from the apostles. Things drastically began to change once Constantine came along.
peace.
Listen to? Yes, but it does not trump Scripture.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:06:53 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:10:00 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:10:35 AM
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Stephanos
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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If you dont know where in the New Testament it says that God has ordained to government to use the sword to punish evil, then you really dont know your bible. That and you dont read this forum as I know I personally in this thread, have said ROMANS 13 several times. The fact is, it is there.
May I also point out that neither Jesus nor Peter told the Centurian or Cornelius (respectfully) that their military service was incompatible with the message of Christ Jesus. The Centurian even talked in MILITARY terms to Jesus, and Jesus called it a mark of great faith. But what is really telling, is we have a nice discorse with Peter reaching the FIRST non-Jewish convert to Christianity, who happened to be a Roman OFFICER, and not ONCE does Peter even HINT that Cornelius needed to leave his profession if he wanted to follow the teachings of Christ Jesus. One would think that if this WAS the will of God, for Christians to not serve in the military or what not, this would be the best place to include it right? Well its not there. Not at all.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:11:26 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Firstly, I was presenting it because the majority that tout your line of thought say they would do nothing.
Such as who? I would say the majority swing the other way and would say something akin to what I am saying here.
I would recommend you and others read Walter Wink's "The Powers That Be."
The hippie guru touts a book and, surprise-surprise, it ain't one of the 66 inspired ones in the Bible.
I would recommend you study the authoritative book FIRST and THOROUGHLY before men's opinions about it. It will assist you in having a cohesive theology. Maybe not one that appeals to your human sensibilities, but cohesive.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:14:54 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:17:49 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:20:20 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Let me put the question like this to all of you who find all this so troubling.
As Christians, are you committed to violence?
No, but I am committed to protect and serve. And because evil does indeed exist in this world, I am committed to stopping said evil, with force if need be to protect the innocent.
We go back to the my earlier comment to you about sins of commission and sins of omission - many times Christians absolutely neglect sins of omission. Which is not doing the right thing, not doing something. Sins are not just about doing, but also about lack of action.
And lack of action on the behalf of Christians to stop or prevent evil is a sin.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:22:27 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:24:03 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Jimbo -
As a seminary trained pastor...
Sir, I recommend that you ask - no demand - the return of all the fees and tuition you paid because it is obvious that you either received a substandard education there or was too distracted with belly lint evaluation to pay attention to the core material.
As for the pastoral part, I will pray for the folk you are supposed to be feeding and guiding.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:25:11 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Such as who? I would say the majority swing the other way and would say something akin to what I am saying here.
Such as fellow board members that post here. Please do know that this is not the first thread/time we have encountered or dealt with this topic on these boards. The last one was just three or so months ago, that seems to be the cycle this extreme pacifism angle gets resurrected here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I would recommend you and others read Walter Wink's "The Powers That Be."
I have read it and a few other books from him. No, thanks - Walter does his best to negate the Bible as a moral authority, wanting to make it morally incoherent.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:26:30 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:26:56 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
And as Ghandi and MLK and Jesus have shown, you can work against evil and bring wonderful change without resorting to violence.
When you have a system to work within. When the system is evil and withour just remedy, like Nazi Germany or even pre-revolutionary England, violence has always been a valid, biblical response.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:28:20 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:29:09 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
...You have not answered any question posed to you...
Suh, I'm not your student. Feel free to think you drive the world around you, but Jesus you ain't.
Not even a passable Socrates...
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:30:07 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Let me put the question like this to all of you who find all this so troubling.
As Christians, are you committed to violence?
No, but I am committed to protect and serve. And because evil does indeed exist in this world, I am committed to stopping said evil, with force if need be to protect the innocent.
We go back to the my earlier comment to you about sins of commission and sins of omission - many times Christians absolutely neglect sins of omission. Which is not doing the right thing, not doing something. Sins are not just about doing, but also about lack of action.
And lack of action on the behalf of Christians to stop or prevent evil is a sin.
And as Ghandi and MLK and Jesus have shown, you can work against evil and bring wonderful change without resorting to violence.
Equating Ghandi, a false teacher, with Jesus Christ? Nice.
And Jesus wasn't so "nice" when He used a whip on the people in the temple. Jesus wasn't so non-violent when He turned over tables and dismantled the dealings of the money changers. Nor was He so gentle when He lashed out with utterly strong words and charges when speaking with the Pharisees.
You seem to brush off a lot of Scripture and context to fit the mold you're trying to say you're coming from.
When someone has a gun to your wife's head, good luck trying to stop the offender without resorting to violence. When Hitler was murdering millions of Jews, we should have just kept trying to reason with him, an evil individual, with non-violence. Your way of thinking looks great on paper, in academia, but causes death and suffering from the streets of Chicago to the ovens of Auschwitz.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:32:28 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:33:30 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
How can a christian who is committed to non-violence (the way of Jesus) bring about justice and shine a spotlight on the evil of this world?
This is a faulty strawman.
Jesus (God) is not all about absolute non-violence. Saying so contradict the context of Scripture and a plethora of passages from God Himself. Passages and context I more than shared in the previous pages of this thread - so please stop trying to fool yourself and the readers by using that straw man which is not biblically accurate.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:33:38 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Such as fellow board members that post here. Please do know that this is not the first thread/time we have encountered or dealt with this topic on these boards. The last one was just three or so months ago, that seems to be the cycle this extreme pacifism angle gets resurrected here.
lol. Well thank God the majority of people who post on CW do not comprise the majority of Christians in the world.
Actually, they do tend to represent the majority of Christians in the world. If you are as savvy as you'd like us to believe and are honest, then you should be aware that yours is in the nutcase fringe or, at best, the minority juvenile viewpoint on the topic you have been engaged in.
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:34:24 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:36:19 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:40:29 AM
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[Deleted] - 9/10/2008 9:43:22 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/10/2008 9:47:48 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Again: What does Jesus mean when he says those who live by the sword will die by the sword?
You tell us, Socrates, did Jesus literally mean that each and every soldier that uses a sword in carrying out his duty and each and every government official that carries out executions will be killed by the instrument they use?
Or, perhaps, that a mean-spirited, violent, and evil man can expect to reap the same sort of violent end they cause others.
Like Adolf Hitler, maybe...
Or ex-prez Hussein, maybe...
So which is it, Socrates?
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