Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (Full Version)

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solomonsprayer -> Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:09:39 PM)

I konw a lot of people have praised the speeched from Guiliani and Palin last night, but a lot of internet sites are saying that it could turn people off as well. They argue that many undecided people will see the humor and character attacks as tasteless, even if true.

I've seen many comments about how the vicious humor was well-received by GOP supporters, but that the middle-of-road undecideds may see Palin as cocky/arrogant and prone to mudslinging.

HOw do others feel.

I loved the points that the two brought up in terms of their intellectual views and analysis of the Democrats, but the way they did it seemed sometmies slightly "rude." Does anyone feel this way? It was like taunting the Dems and mocking them ....



=================>>>
(EDIT: here is the article link again I mentioned below...Some have pointed out the link was wrong in one of the posts....I corrected it, but still here it is anyways:


http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/04/gop/

You need to skip the ads and premium content thing...there should be a little link at top that says "Enter Salon" ..... Or just goto Salon.com)



tafkam -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:10:44 PM)

Some people are just too thin skinned....



tracydolls -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:15:36 PM)

The same ole

BRING IT ON !

They repackaged it into Sara Palin sold it to the American people and by gosh!
It's WORKING.

Believe me Democrats are like how did Karl Rove do it? Again? Isnt he retired? With Sarah Palin?

the man is BRILLANT, and he knows his base!



stonek -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:16:53 PM)

I think last night was a point of finally fighting back against all the false claims and attacks being made toward her.



tracydolls -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:20:54 PM)

quote:

I think last night was a point of finally fighting back against all the false claims and attacks being made toward her.



First, Jesus never fought back.

Finally...............after one week? No wait, last friday to wednesday is not even a week.

Asking questions is the right being attacked.



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:33:46 PM)

They joked Obama so hard....

From his community organizer job....to his rhetoric...the parting the oceans, descending from the clouds and saving the earth type stuff (though I agree that Obama is way too lofty in speech, given his actual accomplishments)...to his no votes on legislation, etc.

He was trashed completely. I liked the humor used to support Palin's own background (the hockey mom stuff and the Ebay sale of the jet), but I'm not sure I like the humor used to attack Obama/Biden. It was vicious at times. I don't even mind the part where she said some people use change to promote their careers, but John McCain uses his career to promote change...

But some of the other stuff abvout hauling those Greek columns back to a studio lot and the jokes about "clinging to religion" were said is a mocking way. ....



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:35:51 PM)

small excerpt from Salon.com's analyst:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/04/gop/


The GOP's cheerful viciousness
With last night's cheerfully vicious speeches from Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin, the Republicans did what they always do in order to win elections: they exploited raw cultural divides while mocking, belittling and demonizing Democratic leaders. Yet again, they delivered brutally effective and deeply personal blows to the Democratic presidential candidate grounded in the same manipulative and deceitful yet very potent themes they've been using for the last three decades.

Ever since Ronald Reagan's election, this is what the Republicans do every four years. They render issues irrelevant and convert campaigns into cultural wars and personality referenda. They converted our elections into tawdry reality shows long before networks realized their entertainment value. And every four years, Democrats seems shocked and paralyzed by all of this and desperately delude themselves into believing that mean-spirited "negativity" and nastiness will alienate voters, while the media swoons at the potency of these attacks................



Sophie11 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:38:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer

They joked Obama so hard....

From his community organizer job....to his rhetoric...the parting the oceans, descending from the clouds and saving the earth type stuff (though I agree that Obama is way too lofty in speech, given his actual accomplishments)...to his no votes on legislation, etc.

He was trashed completely. I liked the humor used to support Palin's own background (the hockey mom stuff and the Ebay sale of the jet), but I'm not sure I like the humor used to attack Obama/Biden. It was vicious at times. I don't even mind the part where she said some people use change to promote their careers, but John McCain uses his career to promote change...

But some of the other stuff abvout hauling those Greek columns back to a studio lot and the jokes about "clinging to religion" were said is a mocking way. ....

I'm not sure I would consider talking about styrofoam columns to be a particularly nasty attack. How is it that you consider it that way?



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:42:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

I'm not sure I would consider talking about styrofoam columns to be a particularly nasty attack. How is it that you consider it that way?


They made it seem like Obama was a loser for using those. ...It was a way of mocking him and the Dems...pointing out their fake Greek columns and excessiveness of the venue...

I konw the point was to show that Obama uses rhetoric and speeches and lights/camera to puff himself up, but the tone was so vicious. It's a combo of attack/tone.



tracydolls -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:43:59 PM)

quote:

The GOP's cheerful viciousness
With last night's cheerfully vicious speeches from Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin, the Republicans did what they always do in order to win elections: they exploited raw cultural divides while mocking, belittling and demonizing Democratic leaders. Yet again, they delivered brutally effective and deeply personal blows to the Democratic presidential candidate grounded in the same manipulative and deceitful yet very potent themes they've been using for the last three decades.

Ever since Ronald Reagan's election, this is what the Republicans do every four years. They render issues irrelevant and convert campaigns into cultural wars and personality referenda. They converted our elections into tawdry reality shows long before networks realized their entertainment value. And every four years, Democrats seems shocked and paralyzed by all of this and desperately delude themselves into believing that mean-spirited "negativity" and nastiness will alienate voters, while the media swoons at the potency of these attacks................


John Kerry made the mistake in 2004 of it.

I don't know, maybe it's me but I'm tired of it all.
Just "TRASHING" someone, even if I get the best zinger off, the person is stunned, it don't feel RIGHT TO ME.

This can't be good. the way our culture is going.. What's next? Where are we going now?



Sophie11 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

I'm not sure I would consider talking about styrofoam columns to be a particularly nasty attack. How is it that you consider it that way?


They made it seem like Obama was a loser for using those. ...It was a way of mocking him and the Dems...pointing out their fake Greek columns and excessiveness of the venue...

I konw the point was to show that Obama uses rhetoric and speeches and lights/camera to puff himself up, but the tone was so vicious. It's a combo of attack/tone.

But if the truth of it is that he is excessive then is the problem more that that fact was exposed? Because the statement by itself is not a vicious attack IMO.



rnershigh -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:52:56 PM)

No.
I thought it was funny.
Where did she mudsling?
I'm with tafkam.
Some people are too thin-skinned, looking for offenses in every statement.



csl7037 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 8:55:53 PM)

They didn't say anything too mean-spirited at all. Most of it was all in good fun; the poignant parts were the ones that maybe hit a little too close to home, I think. I do think Guiliani's delivery was more harsh and biting - it struck me that the audience boo'ed through almost his entire speech (with him, not at him). Palid didn't elicit that kind of response at all - it was cheers and tears and, I thought, an absolutely brilliant delivery.



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:04:50 PM)

Read the Salon article I posted an excerpt above from:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/04/gop/
(here's the link again)

I like it's analysis of the GOP's character assassination and smear tactics as a way to deflect attention away from the American population's dislike of Republican policies and the last eight years of leadership....Greenwald says this is a common tactic from the REPs when they are losing a campaign to use vicious attacks on personality (like with Kerry in 04) rather than face real issues, such as the direction of ecnomy, health care, education, housing crisis, etc. Issues that the public is mad about. ....The analysis of the article is very deep and insightful.

Problem with his analysis, though, is that the personality and character attacks are true this time. I don't disagree with the criticism that Obama is inexperienced and has questioanble solutions and uses rhetoric and rock star status too much to hide stuff.....That I agree with. (I also don't agree that McCain/Palin are traditional GOP/Washington insiders that is implicit in the argument...they are not and are different.)

But what I liked was that Greenwald said that Obama and Biden refused to use character smears against McCain. They attack his policies not character (perhaps because there is othing to attack?....I can buy that rebuttal possibly).....Obama even told the media to lay off Palin's daughter's pregnancy to try to be civil. Biden refusd to attack Palin and McCain as well. The article shows how Obama/Biden play clean politics while McCain/Palin are dirty as the GOP always is when it is desparate.

Any thoughts?

(Again, I don't disagree with content of attacks on Obama/Biden...just the viciousness of them.)



psalm116 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:08:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

I think last night was a point of finally fighting back against all the false claims and attacks being made toward her.



First, Jesus never fought back.




Jesus did get angry and fought back verbally with the religious leaders.



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:13:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm116

Jesus did get angry and fought back verbally with the religious leaders.


But Christ was always direct in His criticism (e.g. with Pharisees) and did so with rigtheous anger; Palin/Guiliani seemed to use humor to mock not necesarily with an attempt to correct. I guess I see a very subtle difference. Some parts I thought they did a good job with. Not all the humor/criticism was vicious, but a few parts I thought were.



Sophie11 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:18:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer

Read the Salon article I posted an excerpt above from:

http://www.salon.com/src/pass/sitepass/spon/sitepass_website_refresh.html
(here's the link again)

I'm not sure the link is working.

quote:

I like it's analysis of the GOP's character assassination and smear tactics as a way to deflect attention away from the American population's dislike of Republican policies and the last eight years of leadership....Greenwald says this is a common tactic from the REPs when they are losing a campaign to use vicious attacks on personality (like with Kerry in 04) rather than face real issues, such as the direction of ecnomy, health care, education, housing crisis, etc. Issues that the public is mad about. ....The analysis of the article is very deep and insightful.

Problem with his analysis, though, is that the personality and character attacks are true this time. I don't disagree with the criticism that Obama is inexperienced and has questioanble solutions and uses rhetoric and rock star status too much to hide stuff.....That I agree with. (I also don't agree that McCain/Palin are traditional GOP/Washington insiders that is implicit in the argument...they are not and are different.)

But what I liked was that Greenwald said that Obama and Biden refused to use character smears against McCain. They attack his policies not character (perhaps because there is othing to attack?....I can buy that rebuttal possibly).....Obama even told the media to lay off Palin's daughter's pregnancy to try to be civil. Biden refusd to attack Palin and McCain as well. The article shows how Obama/Biden play clean politics while McCain/Palin are dirty as the GOP always is when it is desparate.

Any thoughts?

(Again, I don't disagree with content of attacks on Obama/Biden...just the viciousness of them.)

Well, I agree that neither party should use smear tactics to win. They should attempt to win based on their own merits and not on how badly they can make the other look.

Anyway, I guess I just get suspicious when one party suddenly says it is above mudslinging. Only because that would be a new stance for either party and I have to ask, why?



psalm116 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:20:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm116

Jesus did get angry and fought back verbally with the religious leaders.


But Christ was always direct in His criticism (e.g. with Pharisees) and did so with rigtheous anger; Palin/Guiliani seemed to use humor to mock not necesarily with an attempt to correct. I guess I see a very subtle difference. Some parts I thought they did a good job with. Not all the humor/criticism was vicious, but a few parts I thought were.


I see a difference in Guiliani's humor compared to Palin. IMO Guiliani was looking for applause and recognition. Palin was more in line with righteous anger. She could have said all the same things without the humor, but think about it, would you remember for example, that Obama hasn't written anything since he's been a senator. I didn't know that until last night, and I'll remember it because of the way she presented it.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:22:05 PM)

I think it was harsh but probably fair, at least on the curve usualy accepted for political speeches (they are never 100% accurate on the facts). Palin may have been better served to attack less as this was an introduction to her although many of the lines wre winners. Nothing to me was offensive or over the line and I have defended Obama on these forums before when it was.

But it sure was tough, man.



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:23:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

quote:

ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer

Read the Salon article I posted an excerpt above from:

http://www.salon.com/src/pass/sitepass/spon/sitepass_website_refresh.html
(here's the link again)

I'm not sure the link is working.




Oops....here it is again:
That was wrong link

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/04/gop/



psalm116 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:24:35 PM)

You know, if you think about it and are honest...alot of pastors aren't any different in the pulpit, by using attacks and humor.



Zhi -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:26:10 PM)

quote:


First, Jesus never fought back.

Really?

I seem to recall an incident involving a whip. Not to mention a lot of verbal repartee.



solomonsprayer -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:38:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psalm116

I see a difference in Guiliani's humor compared to Palin. IMO Guiliani was looking for applause and recognition. Palin was more in line with righteous anger. She could have said all the same things without the humor, but think about it, would you remember for example, that Obama hasn't written anything since he's been a senator. I didn't know that until last night, and I'll remember it because of the way she presented it.


True with the Senate bills point. But the joking of the Greek columns and the parting the oceans, descending from the clouds, etc. ...that can be seen as pure mockery. Obama is eloquent and as the article says, Obama always says the right thing and does not attack people in a personal way. He tries to be civil, not vicious (though I'm sure he has had some gaffes before....probably behind people's backs more so than in national spotlight). ...

Anyhow, the diffrence seems to be Obama is more civil and tries to stay away from mockering and vicious smears, while the GOP speakers used them liberally.

It is debatable the extent of the attacks and whether they crossed a line, but I did think a few places it did and sometimes more so with tone......many internet bloggers and analysts said the tone of Palin was so cocky and arrogant for someone new to the country. (mmmm, then again, Obama is super lofty for someone with little experience.....But with Obama, his loftiness seems to be more eloquence...a skill for speaking and about trying to reach higher levels of good than to mock or put down others.)



psalm116 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:41:08 PM)

Compared to the Al Gores and John Kerry's of the Dem Party, Palin is tame.



csl7037 -> RE: Was Guiliani and Palin Humor too Offensive? (9/4/2008 9:53:53 PM)

I personally think they just don't have Obama say the stuff that could be construed as mean spirited because they know he can't pull it off. I've seen him get riled up and I really suspect he's got a pretty mean temper. When he clenches his jaw and furrows his brown, I think they are trying to show him serious or pensive or maybe they're hoping it makes him look older - but it's a scarey look that I've always wondered what's behind it.

Even if they let Obama stay out of the mix, there's no shortage of attacks coming from the left. You cannot, with a straight face, claim that the left is somehow kinder or more restrained in the attacks. I'm not buying it. And, sure Obama took the high road on the attacks on Palin's family, and I'm sure he sincerely doesn't enjoy seeing Michelle villified, but I don't believe for a minute that he doesn't expect his underlings to hold back. And he knows full well the media will carry his banner and he can afford to let them take the cheap shots, and they're happy to do it.



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