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Bluethread -> RE: Do Not Worry.... (9/8/2008 5:14:09 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Theophile2
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Again, how then should we live? Also, What is Yeshua(Jesus) saying?
Traditionally, when people went through hard times, the shallow answer was that there was some sin in that person's life in which he or she was suffering for. But Job discovered that the reason God allowed him to go through his troubles was actually because it was the only way God knew Job would get out of his little religious rut and come to see God in a whole new light and have a much closer and more personal relationship with Him (Job 42:1-6).
I must differ from your interpretation. Adonai found no fault in Job's "religious rut". In fact, He bragged to the accuser about it. If Job had any fault at all it would be that he did not accept the plight Adonai presented to Him. Thus, one could say he was not living as Yeshua tells us we should in the passage under discussion. Regardless of our circumstances, we are to continue to serve Adonai to the best of our ability.
Regarding the rest of my post, please do not think me harsh. I have gone through each point in the hopes that we might see how to best look at the Scriptures in context and answer inquiries in a more brief and effective manner.
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And what did Jesus say about this subject:
Mt 25:34-40 "Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You? And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me."
This does not refer to our concern about our need, but the needs of others. Important yes, but not on topic.
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Jn 9:2-3 "And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither has this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God might be revealed in him."
This quote refers to finding fault with those who find themselves in dire circumstances, not about our accepting the circumstance we find ourselves in. Again, important point, but not on topic.
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Jn 11:3-4 "Then his sisters sent to Him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick. When Jesus heard, He said, This sickness is not to death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God might be glorified by it."
This quote could be interpreted to refer to our not worrying about our personal situation. However, I do not think it is best evidence.
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And what did the Apostle Paul say about it:
Rom 5:3-4 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, (4) and endurance produces character, and character produces hope (2 Cor 12:9-10;
There, this is somewhat on point. Even if Adonai does not provide as we would desire, such builds character as it did with Job.
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And Hebrews:
Heb 12:5-11 ESV And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. (6) For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." (7) It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? (8) If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. (9) Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? (10) For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. (11) For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
This seems to make the opposite argument than the one above. Though our needs not appearing to be met could be seen as discipline from Adonai, I believe, the point of the Scripture under discussion is that we shuold do as Adonai directs and not be concerned about whether our needs are meet or not.
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And James:
James 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, (3) for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. (4) And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
As with 2 Cor 12:9-10, this qoute gives some hope to those who feel they are not being provided for at they would like. However, I think Yeshua is telling us this is not to be the primary focus of our lives.
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So here's the deal.
There are two basic reasons God allows any flavor of suffering:
To draw someone closer to God; either as discipline from sin, or trial in righteousness, or an object lesson for an observer to subsequently change his or her life to seek first the Kingdom of God
To give someone else the opportunity to serve Christ through that person
There is a third alternative. Adonai is not obligated to provide us with anything and we should be grateful for whatever Adonai provides.
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So what we know and don't know:
No one but the individual afflicted knows if there is any sin they may or may not need to deal with in their heart.
No one but the individual afflicted knows if the reason God is putting them through their trial is to draw them closer to God.
No one but God knows if an individual's time of trial is purely for the purposes of motivating someone else in which they have contact to help that other person draw closer to God; either by serving the afflicted, or changing the observer's own life through the example of the afflicted.
And no one on the face of this planet can give you a scripture from the Bible that will tell you which one it is for which situation.
These are indeed good bits of advise for those who may judge others. but again Yeshua, in this passage does not appear to be talking about judging others, but about day to day living on my part.
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The question I have for you is this ... do you see how you view the world in affliction as an opportunity to serve Christ? Is the Holy Spirit's work on your heart in observation of these events bringing you to a closer relationship with Christ?
In other words, the question to me isn't why are they suffering if God says don't worry, the question is how does it affect your walk with God and what are you doing about it?
Though you may be answering others, you quoted me. In context I do not think Yeshua is instructing us on how to view others, but how to view our own situation.
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Side note by Timothy on the minimum with which we as Christians should be content with, if we seek first the Kingdom of God:
1Ti 6:6-8 But godliness with contentment is great gain. (7) For we brought nothing into the world, and it is clear that we can carry nothing out. (8) But having food and clothing, we will be content.
Ahh, there you go, your side note is not a side note at all, but in my opinion, is the answer to my questions.
Again, I do not wish to be harsh. I am just concerned about the execessive use of unrelated Scripture and arguments in these posts, when simple explanations are sufficient.
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