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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 8:22:28 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Now fast-forward one chapter to Rev.20:10. "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Who are the "they" in this verse? (answer) Mr.Devil, Mr. Beast and Mr. False Prophet. The verse clearly states "THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever
What your bible translates as forever and ever, Rotherhams bible translates as "ages upon ages" which is an undefined amount of time but does'nt mean forever.
And that's the crux of the matter which is the accurate translation of these various greek words. Traditional bibles like the KJV translates words like "aionios" into "eternal" because when it was written the doctrine of eternal punishment was an ingrained doctrine thanks to the Roman Catholic Church.
If you choose to believe that God only has in store for unbelievers simply eternal wrath then at least IMO you're missing the biggest part of God which is love and mercy.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 11:04:55 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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Mrfribbles,
Good scripture. Pretty much puts a responsibility on the back of the church...most of which hasn't even witnessed to their own neighborhood, let alone every person in the world. But I believe God will make up for our lack of obedience.
steve7150,
I've never read Rotherham's but it does confirm both our opinions as to true the definition of anionios. But unfortunately, like Bob pointed out earlier, many bible references and especially dictonaries give the interpretation that is most 'in use' as oppposed to that which is 'most accurate'.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 1:46:08 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
But I believe God will make up for our lack of obedience.
How will He do this?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 4:02:48 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Show me in the bible where it even comes CLOSE to saying that there will be some that will have never heard of God.
Ill bet you cant...
Romans 10:14-15?
That dosent show Jesus or God saying that there will be some that will not have heard the word.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/17/2008 5:54:51 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
But I believe God will make up for our lack of obedience.
How will He do this?
I believe that the will and the plan of God was for the salvation of all creation. And I don't believe His plan and His will can be thwarted by man's plans and will...ultimately.
To be a 'little' more specific, I believe He will do it by the spoken, not written, word of His mouth which will not return void. No matter how long...or how many ages it takes. That's the best answer I can give right now because I'm not sure I know all the particulars. I only know enough to believe less in the Calvin and Armenian POV.
ISA 45:23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
He has sworn to Himself to accomplish the above, so any lack in myself or the church won't deter His will/plan. He will only make up for our failure to have more fully taken a part of His plan. Our shortcomings here cause us to suffer a loss of rewards in the hereafter, but they will not cause The Shepherd to suffer the loss of one of His precious sheep.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 12:51:33 AM
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bob97
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Hi DR...
So are we saying that God is not eternal but only last for an age?
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal,165 immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever., 165, 165 Amen.
quote:
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting.166 Amen.
quote:
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Don't you think it strange that Young's is the only translation that does not translate to eternal?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 3:16:58 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Show me in the bible where it even comes CLOSE to saying that there will be some that will have never heard of God.
Ill bet you cant...
Romans 10:14-15?
That dosent show Jesus or God saying that there will be some that will not have heard the word.
a) Looks to me that it does.
b) How far out the window do Jesus or God expect you to throw your common sense anyway? I'm curious to know the process you went through in your recent change of views from one that acknowledged that some haven't heard to one that insists that every single person who ever lived on the planet has had a chance to hear.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 3:26:12 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Thanks for the above observation...which is right on IMO. When I was 'catching up' this afternoon and came upon Thessa's first post saying she wouldn't have any more to do with me, my first thought was to post and thank her. But now I don't have to, I'll just thank you for stating the obvious.
I think you had the right idea!
Besides the verses Mr. Fribbles mentioned I was thinking of these in Luke--
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Rather than let them derail the thread, I wonder how these verses would be read by proponents of either CI or CU. btw I don't want to mislead you or anyone--I'm not a Christian, just an interested (and skeptical) explorer. Why is it that people will get banned for trying to make a case here for Universalism?
regards
abraxas
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 10:55:31 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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Thessa,
quote:
That dosent show Jesus or God saying that there will be some that will not have heard the word.
That's not what you asked for. You asked for somewhere in the Bible. That's what I provided. If you're suggesting that Romans is less inspired than other parts in the Bible, then that's a discussion for another thread.
Him4All,
quote:
To be a 'little' more specific, I believe He will do it by the spoken, not written, word of His mouth which will not return void. No matter how long...or how many ages it takes. That's the best answer I can give right now because I'm not sure I know all the particulars. I only know enough to believe less in the Calvin and Armenian POV.
And what of those who have already died without hearing the message?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 11:40:34 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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Bob,
quote:
So are we saying that God is not eternal but only last for an age? Not at all. We are saying the the of God's quality of" kingship, honor, glory, might" is present in every age, and in the scriptures you quote, that's what YLT says.
1TI 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, {is} honour and glory - to the ages of the ages! Amen.
1TI 6:16 who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom {is} honour and might age-during! Amen.
quote:
Don't you think it strange that Young's is the only translation that does not translate to eternal? Actually it isn't. Rotherham's translation supports the same type definition except it says age abiding.
Let me see if I can give another example of the difference between 'quality' and 'quantity'. During the age of the law, God's quality of life, for that age, was dependent upon obeying the law. Then, when Jesus came He based God's quality of life upon "grace and truth" during this present church age. God's qualilty of life was present in both ages, despite the fact that neither age represented eternity as we define it. And despite the fact the requirment for God's life was different in both ages.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 1:13:57 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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Abraxes,
Not a believer!  What on earth are you doing here? What has kept you here for over 200 posts?. Do you even know? I do.  I'm not sure how many posts you really have because the site keeps saying 216. Are you a 'bug' in the system?
As far as your Luke quote, I have a bit of a different take on it than you. I'm not so sure that it isn't talking about a 'temporal' reality, as opposed to a 'hereafter' reality. The one who knows His will here and doesn't do it, opens themself up to being "beaten" by the adversary IMO. And in my opinion the adversary isn't an enemy of God, he's only the enemy of man. He still gets his marching orders from God, as in the day of Job. And God doesn't tell the devil what he can do, he only tells him what he can't do, just like the two times Satan dealt with Job. What do you think?
Mrfribbles,
quote:
And what of those who have already died without hearing the message?
I thought I just covered that...whatever "message" they need to hear. As Isa 43 said, it has come out of his mouth, so now it's just a question as to when you have ears to hear. When did you hear the message of Isa 43? Where was that message at for the last ?thousand years? Why didn't you hear it sooner than you did? Those who couldn't/didn't hear in this age will in the next, I think. My image of God is not only that He is big enough to do that, but He is also good enough to do that.
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 1:31:13 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Show me in the bible where it even comes CLOSE to saying that there will be some that will have never heard of God.
Ill bet you cant...
Romans 10:14-15?
That dosent show Jesus or God saying that there will be some that will not have heard the word.
a) Looks to me that it does.
b) How far out the window do Jesus or God expect you to throw your common sense anyway? I'm curious to know the process you went through in your recent change of views from one that acknowledged that some haven't heard to one that insists that every single person who ever lived on the planet has had a chance to hear.
Im interested in why you are here on a Christian site if you arent a believer.
quote:
MrFribbles
That's not what you asked for. You asked for somewhere in the Bible. That's what I provided. If you're suggesting that Romans is less inspired than other parts in the Bible, then that's a discussion for another thread.
Well i meant somewhere in the bible that makes what he said plausible. And its not there. Theres nowhere in the bible that says there will be anyone on Earth that will NOT hear about God.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 4:08:46 PM
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frankman
Posts: 207
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
If you choose to believe that God only has in store for unbelievers simply eternal wrath then at least IMO you're missing the biggest part of God which is love and mercy.
I`m so glad you posted the above statement. That is the No.1 reason people give for not wanting to believe in an eternal hell. So I`m glad you brought it up. You are right, we do have a God who is full of love and mercy.  However is that all that God is?
So the question is, do we really know this God? We may think we know God, but the fact is all we really know about God is like looking through a glass darkly. In other words, you and I know very little about this God.  If our God has allowed people to live in untold misery for thousands of years, why would it then be so inconsistent of Him not to allow people to continue on in this misery forever in a place the Bible calls eternal hell? God could stop all the needless suffering in the world right now, suffering caused by wars, famines, earthquakes, winds, diseases, etc. by just saying the word stop, but He won`t do it. So do we really know all about this God of love and mercy?
We don`t understand the justice of God at all because our concept of justice differs from God`s. How could a loving God sent anybody to an eternal hell, we ask. The penalty just doesn`t fit the crime. However the problem with us is we find the concept of an eternal hell so offensive because of our insensitivity to sin. If we violate the law of our infinate Holy God, what makes us think we then also do not deserve an infinite penalty? The God of the Bible may not suit our perferences, but the fact is we`re not God`s councelor and He could care less about our input.
With that said the Bible does teach us we do have a God of love and mercy. In Ezekiel 33:11 God states "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." Only as we call upon the Lord for mercy will we receive the grace we need to escape the wrath of God`s eternal hell.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 6:05:20 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Him4All,
quote:
I thought I just covered that...whatever "message" they need to hear. As Isa 43 said, it has come out of his mouth, so now it's just a question as to when you have ears to hear.
1, I think you mean Isaiah 43. : )
2, I don't think that you are using that verse correctly. Nowhere does it say that everyone will have a chance to respond to the gospel in a fashion which would cause God's saving grace to be given to them. Yes, all knees shall bow - but in reverence and worship, or in fear and trembling, it does not say.
quote:
Those who couldn't/didn't hear in this age will in the next, I think.
And what of Hebrews 9:27? It says nothing of a post-death evangelism taking place here, or anywhere in Scripture.
Thessa,
quote:
Well i meant somewhere in the bible that makes what he said plausible. And its not there. Theres nowhere in the bible that says there will be anyone on Earth that will NOT hear about God.
Hear about about God, or hear about the good news of Jesus? There's a key difference there.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 6:38:27 PM
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dyluck
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I just wanted to put out God's perspective on people who didn't hear the word in the past and their inevitable future: Romans 1:18-32 the whole thing.
We do know that lord says that he won't come back until the word has been spread to all reaches of earth, but people who didn't i think the above applies.
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Being What YOU Are
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/18/2008 8:43:41 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
Im interested in why you are here on a Christian site if you arent a believer.
I'll be happy to answer that if you answer mine.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 1:13:09 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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The Young’s translation is basically a Hebrew translation and as such seems to also give the Hebrews concept of time more so than the Greek.
We need to understand the Hebrew concept of time…below is an excerpt from a study on the “Hebrew Concept of Time” by Ronnie Littlejohn
quote:
The Hebrews did not speculate about duration—as in "How long is the present?" Many Western philosophers out of the Greek tradition found this question troubling. It occupied philosophers from Augustine to Henri Bergson. But the Hebrews avoided such fruitless speculations even though they definitely used temporal concepts. First Kings 11:4 refers to the time "when Solomon was old," but the writer did not wonder about when it was that Solomon started to become old, or at what point he became old, as though he was not old the day previous and then suddenly he was old. The Hebrews were not interested in all this theorizing. I do not mean that this lack was a deficiency, only that it was a difference. We certainly should not think that the Hebrew idea of time is necessarily inferior to the Greek simply because thice Greek was more concrete.
The article can be viewed at …Here.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 1:15:58 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2016
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From: Kansas
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quote:
Eternity or age
Another important feature of YLT is its treatment of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion. These two words have basically the same meaning, and YLT translates them and their derivatives as “age” or “age-during”. Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternality (eternal, everlasting, forever, etc). However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”, so the question arises whether it should ever be so.[6] Proponents of Universal Reconciliation point out that this has significant implications for the problem of hell[7]. Contrast Matthew 25:46 in well-known English translations with its rendering in YLT:
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT) [8]
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV) [9]
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB) [10]
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV) [11]
source Wikipedia...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 8:01:08 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I already did. I said some people live and learn and some people just live. I go to church every Sunday. I learn alot of things i didnt know before. I dont think a person can get out of hell on a technicality.
Your turn. Why are you here if you have no faith in God?
So, just over a week ago you presumed there were people who hadn't heard of Christ, and now you're already coming down on someone else who shares that same belief, and chastising them, saying, "Seriously why are you belittling the fact that we are given ALL chances in THIS LIFE to accept God?" Maybe it's just me but I think that's really strange behavior. Like, you just can't comprehend how someone could possibly believe that, though you yourself did up until September 9th?  Perhaps there is a deeper lesson in your learning process that escaped you.
I didn't say I didn't have faith in God, I said I wasn't a Christian. I'll PM you an explanation when I get a chance, since it doesn't really belong on this thread. Him4all, I'll send you one as well. Don't worry, it's nothing too pernicious!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 9:48:42 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I already did. I said some people live and learn and some people just live. I go to church every Sunday. I learn alot of things i didnt know before. I dont think a person can get out of hell on a technicality.
Your turn. Why are you here if you have no faith in God?
So, just over a week ago you presumed there were people who hadn't heard of Christ, and now you're already coming down on someone else who shares that same belief, and chastising them, saying, "Seriously why are you belittling the fact that we are given ALL chances in THIS LIFE to accept God?" Maybe it's just me but I think that's really strange behavior. Like, you just can't comprehend how someone could possibly believe that, though you yourself did up until September 9th? Perhaps there is a deeper lesson in your learning process that escaped you.
I didn't say I didn't have faith in God, I said I wasn't a Christian. I'll PM you an explanation when I get a chance, since it doesn't really belong on this thread. Him4all, I'll send you one as well. Don't worry, it's nothing too pernicious!
You arent a Christian, so of course the things i do wouldnt make sense to you. It dosent bother me at all that you think that way. Believe it or not im not doing things to please you. Im doing things to please God.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 9:49:10 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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MrFribbles,
quote:
1, I think you mean Isaiah 43. : )
2, I don't think that you are using that verse correctly. Nowhere does it say that everyone will have a chance to respond to the gospel in a fashion which would cause God's saving grace to be given to them. Yes, all knees shall bow - but in reverence and worship, or in fear and trembling, it does not say.
Sorry for the typo I meant Isa 45:23. And you are free to disagree with my take. But swearing allegiance certainly differs from being beaten into making some fearful and trembling proclamation.
I might point out that the swearing that's going on is the same word as the Lord Himself used in the following verse. And the words definition is a bit interesting too I think.
ISA 45:23 "I have sworn/shaba by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance/shaba.
7650 shaba`: prop. to be complete, but used only as a denom. from 7651; to seven oneself, i.e. swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times)
quote:
And what of Hebrews 9:27? It says nothing of a post-death evangelism taking place here, or anywhere in Scripture. Neither does it say anything about what happens after that judgment. The purpose of the judgments of God is always to deal with rebellion, not to torture mercilessly and endlessly serving no purpose at all. And I do believe that unbelievers will go through the refining fires of judgement, but they won't be purposeless and eternal.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 10:57:44 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
You arent a Christian, so of course the things i do wouldnt make sense to you. It dosent bother me at all that you think that way. Believe it or not im not doing things to please you. Im doing things to please God.
Shame I'm not a Christian. I was hoping for a thoughtful reply.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 11:48:32 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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Bob,
quote:
We need to understand the Hebrew concept of time…below is an excerpt from a study on the “Hebrew Concept of Time” by Ronnie Littlejohn
And while your at it see if you can find any proof concerning a Hebrew concept concerning eternal torture in hell for unbelievers in the Jewish faith. The Jew I talked to said she had never heard of hell growing up in her synagogue. If NT theology matters the Sadducces didn't even believe in an afterlife, humm wonder what they did with an eterna hell? Seems odd that hell is a NT reality only doesn't it? I mean how were they supposed to scare all of the earth's population into believing for four or five thousand years prior to Dante's version. A version of hell/purgatory which fed quite nicely into the churches coffers, in the way of indulgences?
If you'd really like to study the alternative view, we too, have scholars and scholarship that support true justice from a loving/merciful God. Might want to get a big cup of coffee first, before going there. And this is only one article of many I've read over the years.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
DR
Correction was to clear up that Jews didn't believe in orthodoxy's hell for anyone.
< Message edited by Him4all -- 9/19/2008 12:16:26 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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