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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 12:40:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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Him4All,
quote:
But swearing allegiance certainly differs from being beaten into making some fearful and trembling proclamation.
It's not a matter of being beaten - it's a matter of realizing, too late, that God is truth, and that they cannot deny it any longer. It is fearful and trembling, though. God is wrathful. He does not overlook sin.
quote:
The purpose of the judgments of God is always to deal with rebellion, not to torture mercilessly and endlessly serving no purpose at all. And I do believe that unbelievers will go through the refining fires of judgement, but they won't be purposeless and eternal.
Who says an eternal hell is without purpose? God is an eternal God. Sinning against Him is immense. To say He can ignore sin, or that we can somehow pay for our sins ourselves by being "refined" is, in my opinion, a gross misunderstanding of God's holiness.
abraxas,
quote:
Shame I'm not a Christian. I was hoping for a thoughtful reply.
What were you seeking a reply on?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 1:12:28 PM
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dyluck
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Hell (hades), death, and Lake of Fire are 3 Separate things.
After the Great Judgment, Hell and Death are thrown into the everlasting unquenchable lake of Fire! God disposes of sin and whoever is a slave to sin because it is their master.
It took 1 sin from adam and eve to be banned from the garden, cursed with death and eternal seperation from God.
Why do all these "temporary torchure" people think this is just a type of clensing of sin. Hell will be cast forever in the lake of fire along with the curse of death and forebearer SIN!
The ONLY thing in this entire eternal existance that has the power to save you is Jesus. and he didn't come to save you from temporary torchure but eternal separation from God!
God is a perfect God therefore his atributes are perfect. A perfect Justice a perfect love, perfect Grace and therefore perfect Wrath
abraxxas, i am sad that you don't call your self a christian. Curious to see if you believe and put your faith in Jesus. The bible says countless times you cannot have the father without the son. No one comes to the father without the Son. And if you are not regenerated in the holy spirit and made new, then you will not have a desire to follow God in the manner that pleases him. In that, your love will cause you to follow Christ and obey him (Christian).
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 5:10:44 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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MrFribbles,
quote:
God is wrathful. He does not overlook sin.
Nothing in Universalism says he overlooks it. And nothing says His wrath is eternal, only age-abiding...and purposeful. Unlike torturing people endlessly.
quote:
Sinning against Him is immense. If only it was that "immense" to His nominal church. A church that apparently thinks it can sin without impunity...since it's forgiven. Aren't we luckier than those who never heard of Him or 'the plan' of the Omnicient God to just save a few.
quote:
To say He can ignore sin, or that we can somehow pay for our sins ourselves by being "refined" is, in my opinion, a gross misunderstanding of God's holiness. Universalism doesn't say, He ignores sin nor does it say we pay for our sins either. It says Jesus paid the price. And since Jesus didn't 'die eternally'...or go to 'hell eternally' neither of those must have been the price of sin. My bible says he paid the price...not more not less. So if eternal torture is the price then Jesus should have to go there forever. But He didn't because that wasn't the price for sin.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 5:34:32 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
What were you seeking a reply on?
He was seeking a reply on something i said a few days ago, to which i have learned differently and hes trying to keep it going for the next few pages apparently.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 6:06:15 PM
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steve7150
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Interestingly in Rev 20 all who are in the graves are raised up and JUDGED by their works.
Did you catch the word JUDGED which is a word that implies different kinds of judgements against these folks based on their works.
Yet they are all thrown into the lake of fire for some purpose. If everyone must spend eternity in the LOF there is no judgment involved since eternity equals eternity thus judgment is rendered unnecessary, unless you believe hell is like Dante's inferno but of course that's non-biblical.
So the phrase "judge by their works" clearly indicates God evaluates unbelievers individually and sentences punishment/correction to them on a case by case basis.
That's what justice is, making the punishment fit the crime just the same as God did in the OT.
That was God's moral standard for justice in the OT (eye for eye) and the bible says "God changes not."
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 6:12:17 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
What were you seeking a reply on?
Hi MrFribbles, it was just a spat between me and Thessa, all good now. Greetings to a fellow kama'aina in exile.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 6:18:07 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck abraxxas, i am sad that you don't call your self a christian. Curious to see if you believe and put your faith in Jesus. The bible says countless times you cannot have the father without the son. No one comes to the father without the Son. And if you are not regenerated in the holy spirit and made new, then you will not have a desire to follow God in the manner that pleases him. In that, your love will cause you to follow Christ and obey him (Christian).
Thanks for your concern dyluck. I'm fine, really! 
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 8:17:20 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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Him4All,
quote:
Universalism doesn't say, He ignores sin nor does it say we pay for our sins either. It says Jesus paid the price. And since Jesus didn't 'die eternally'...or go to 'hell eternally' neither of those must have been the price of sin. My bible says he paid the price...not more not less. So if eternal torture is the price then Jesus should have to go there forever. But He didn't because that wasn't the price for sin.
I believe that you're missing a key distinction here - we aren't Jesus. Jesus was not just some man, or even a perfect man. No, Jesus was (and still is) God. Just because He didn't die eternally doesn't mean that we won't, either. That would be like saying, "Since Jesus walked on the water, everyone will be able to also."
Also, if we (or at least, those who haven't trusted in Christ) had to suffer some punishment for their sin that was just "of the ages," do you think that something with that description would only last 3 days?
quote:
If only it was that "immense" to His nominal church. A church that apparently thinks it can sin without impunity...since it's forgiven.
Now this, I wholly agree with. The Church today has a far too low view of sin. It's a tragedy.
abraxas,
quote:
Greetings to a fellow kama'aina in exile.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that term! Illumination, if it's not much trouble?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 11:26:33 PM
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abraxas
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MrFribbles,
'kama'aina' is Hawaiian for 'person of the land'. Not the most mainstream of Hawaiian words, I know!
Him4all,
I do like your reading of those verses from Luke--it's a temporal concept that I agree with generally. The passages mention the return of the master, though, giving it kind of an end-of-the-day feeling. How do you understand the returning master aspect?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/19/2008 11:43:24 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
'kama'aina' is Hawaiian for 'person of the land'. Not the most mainstream of Hawaiian words, I know!
Aaah, I understand. Sadly, I moved from Hawaii when I was, well, not old enough to remember living in Hawaii. I know about as much Hawaiian as I do ancient Hebrew.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/20/2008 11:12:47 AM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
So the phrase "judge by their works" clearly indicates God evaluates unbelievers individually and sentences punishment/correction to them on a case by case basis.
That's what justice is, making the punishment fit the crime just the same as God did in the OT.
That was God's moral standard for justice in the OT (eye for eye) and the bible says "God changes not."
Your above statement is valid and I believe does line up with what the Bible teaches about the degrees of punishment. Jesus referred to this in Luke 12:48. "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." We know from Scripture without faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross nobody will enter heavens gates. Jesus declares of Himself in John 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved." So those people who die without ever hearing the name of Jesus will also go to an eternal hell, but their punishment will not be as severe as those who read about God`s plan for their salvation on these forums day after day, yet still fail the receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To interpret this in any other way is like going beyond what Scripture teaches.
_____________________________
"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/20/2008 3:16:51 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
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quote:
So those people who die without ever hearing the name of Jesus will also go to an eternal hell, but their punishment will not be as severe as those who read about God`s plan for their salvation on these forums day after day, yet still fail the receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To interpret this in any other way is like going beyond what Scripture teaches.
Well since i don't see the greek word eternal in the manuscripts i must disagree. Additionally it seems to me if one is punished eternally there can be no difference in punishment. Eternal torment is eternal and never ending therefore there are no degrees there is just eternity.
But the one who received few stripes received less punishment then the one who received many yet neither were eternally punished. And it was a parable about hell because the evil servant was given a place with the unbelievers in the parable.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/20/2008 4:15:25 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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MrFribbles,
quote:
I believe that you're missing a key distinction here - we aren't Jesus. Jesus was not just some man, or even a perfect man. No, Jesus was (and still is) God. Just because He didn't die eternally doesn't mean that we won't, either. That would be like saying, "Since Jesus walked on the water, everyone will be able to also."
Jesus being qualified to pay the price has nothing to do with what the price was. The price was what it was, and that price was 'death'. And yes I expect to walk on water someday too. Probably in the next age, but why not this age? 
quote:
Also, if we (or at least, those who haven't trusted in Christ) had to suffer some punishment for their sin that was just "of the ages," do you think that something with that description would only last 3 days?
Not necessarily. Death was death, the instant it happened. The three day period was something else IMO. And I'm not claiming all understanding concerning it. It was the time period where Jesus went in the Spirit and preached to those who didn't believe in the antedeluvian age. He could only preach to their spirits because their bodies were 'long ago' returned to the dust. And their souls are still awaiting a judgment based upon whatever works they did, just like steve7150 pointed out in Revelation 20. A 'soul' judgment based upon works has nothing to do with bypassing a 'spirit' judgment based upon knowing Jesus. I know that's a little 'blurry' but I see salvation as a three step process for our triune being. First your spirit, then your soul, and finally a glorified body.
quote:
Now this, I wholly agree with. The Church today has a far too low view of sin. It's a tragedy. Do you think it bothers God that we flash this 'get out of jail' card to continue sinning instead of dealing with sin? Do you think that He will never deal with it? If He does, then how, in your opinion?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/21/2008 2:20:35 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Jesus being qualified to pay the price has nothing to do with what the price was. The price was what it was, and that price was 'death'.
If the only price to pay is "death", and that death refers to a physical death, then why did Christ have to die at all?
quote:
Do you think it bothers God that we flash this 'get out of jail' card to continue sinning instead of dealing with sin?
I think it more than bothers Him, yes.
quote:
Do you think that He will never deal with it?
Nope.
quote:
If He does, then how, in your opinion?
God disciplines those whom He loves. I believe that God will deal with all sin. If a believer is sinning, then God will discipline them in some way - though I can't say in a hard and fast way what that will look like in everyone's life. I do know, however, that there won't be any sort of punishment for the believer in eternity.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/21/2008 2:27:15 PM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
So those people who die without ever hearing the name of Jesus will also go to an eternal hell, but their punishment will not be as severe as those who read about God`s plan for their salvation on these forums day after day, yet still fail the receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To interpret this in any other way is like going beyond what Scripture teaches.
Well since i don't see the greek word eternal in the manuscripts i must disagree. Additionally it seems to me if one is punished eternally there can be no difference in punishment. Eternal torment is eternal and never ending therefore there are no degrees there is just eternity.
But the one who received few stripes received less punishment then the one who received many yet neither were eternally punished. And it was a parable about hell because the evil servant was given a place with the unbelievers in the parable.
quote:
quote:
So those people who die without ever hearing the name of Jesus will also go to an eternal hell, but their punishment will not be as severe as those who read about God`s plan for their salvation on these forums day after day, yet still fail the receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To interpret this in any other way is like going beyond what Scripture teaches.
Well since i don't see the greek word eternal in the manuscripts i must disagree. Additionally it seems to me if one is punished eternally there can be no difference in punishment. Eternal torment is eternal and never ending therefore there are no degrees there is just eternity.
But the one who received few stripes received less punishment then the one who received many yet neither were eternally punished. And it was a parable about hell because the evil servant was given a place with the unbelievers in the parable.
Read Romans 1:18-32 remember God's wrath is perfect; therefore Eternal.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/22/2008 7:26:00 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck remember God's wrath is perfect; therefore Eternal.
What exactly is "perfect wrath", and how does it follow that it is eternal?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/22/2008 11:07:30 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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From: Kansas
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MrFribbles,
quote:
If the only price to pay is "death", and that death refers to a physical death, then why did Christ have to die at all?
Read your question again. He had to die physically because physical death was the price. No other reason for him to die physically. That's why Adam/Eve were kicked out of the Garden to ultimately die physically. They were kicked out so they couldn't access the tree of life and live forever (Gen 3:22).
But it wasn't "the only price to pay", He was also bruised for iniquities (spirit) and wounded for our transgressions (soul) as well as dying physically (body).
quote:
quote:
Do you think that He will never deal with it?
Nope.
Then what's your take on: 1CO 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/22/2008 4:32:24 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Read your question again. He had to die physically because physical death was the price. No other reason for him to die physically. That's why Adam/Eve were kicked out of the Garden to ultimately die physically. They were kicked out so they couldn't access the tree of life and live forever (Gen 3:22).
But it wasn't "the only price to pay", He was also bruised for iniquities (spirit) and wounded for our transgressions (soul) as well as dying physically (body).
There's nothing linking iniquities and transgressions to the spirit and soul. You're reading more into the text than the text suggests.
quote:
Then what's your take on: 1CO 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
I believe there will be degrees of reward/punishment in the afterlife. I believe that if someone accepts Christ, genuinely receives saving grace, but for whatever reason lives a life that is, by and large, not honoring and glorifying to God, then that person will receive much less of a heavenly reward. Their acts will be "burned up" and they will "suffer loss" in that they will lack the greater heavenly rewards. They'll still be saved, but with having their potential for reward decimated.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/22/2008 7:43:23 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
The consequences of your decision will effect your body in this life, plus the eternal life hereafter. In Rom.1 the author is pacifically referring to the sin of homosexuality. If this happens
You're reading more into Paul's words then what he wrote. Yes we have God's wrath , yes he gave them over to their own depravity but no, Paul did not say anything about an eternal irreversable penalty.
In fact Paul never said anything about hell in any of his writings. In fact in the book of Acts the disciples never warned about hell though they did warn about God's judgment.
One should think about the fact that these disciples being with Jesus for 3 1/2 years never spelt out plainly anything about eternal hell. The simple truth is that they knew what "gehenna" really meant , the same thing Jeremiah meant when he spoke of the valley of hennan. God's judgement coming to Jerusalem in 70 AD in "this generation" meaning their generation.
The only thing resembling hell in the bible is the lake of fire in Rev 20.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 1:15:30 AM
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dyluck
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/2/2008
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I see people writing things that discredit the rest of the bible. This really upsets me.
It says that the Lake of Fire is ETERNAL multipule times in the bible. Hell and death to be thrown into it for eternity. Along with demons all those not with Christ and judged according to their deeds. God originally prepared torment for the demons, but then Man just fell down the EXACT same path as the fallen angels... SIN.... If it wasn't eternal, then you believe that eventually satan will be able to burn away his sins or cease to exist??! no no no... 1 Sin is treason enough to suffer eternity, that is why it says NO SPOT OR WRINKLE.
The bible is the inspired word of God. Beleive all of it or don't believe it at all....
It is not a story book to scare people and it contains no untruth from cover to cover.
People want to try to prove this lame brain theory that it is not eternal. If you want to take the chance, sin a lil bit, test God and the go where GOD, JESUS Lord of Lords died on the Cross to save us from, then be my guest. I bet you wouldn't bet on it...
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 8:00:11 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
I see people writing things that discredit the rest of the bible. This really upsets me.
It says that the Lake of Fire is ETERNAL multipule times in the bible.
And it upsets me that most Christians see anything other then eternal torment and eternal wrath as discrediting the bible. Wrath is just one part of God's character but so is love and mercy. In fact John said God is LOVE therefore that would be his dominant attribute since he is LOVE.
And as we discussed some bible translations don't translate "aionios" as eternal and for good reason.
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