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ORIGINAL: phosadaud
So, the next time someone complains about all Christians being whackos and how hypocritical all pro-lifers are, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you demonize all feminists because of the extremists who make the news (which is why they make the news by the way). And the next time someone uses the term fundamentalist or evangelical as a derogatory term, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you use feminist as a derogatory term too.

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I've lived in California most of my life, so my concept/definition of feminism is colored by my circumstances, my experiences, and my personal observations. (And from what I've read here, it seems that the "feminism" practiced widely in California is what many of you would call "extreme feminism")

In California, first and foremost many feminists are largely pro-choice, and take any attempt to legislate their rights to do whatever they want with their bodies (regardless of age), to be the worst form of evil, ever. And by pro-choice, I decidedly mean "pro-abortion."

In California, many feminists are also in favor of rights of gays/lesbians/homosexuals/transexuals and transgendered persons to have all rights and privilege traditionally afforded solely to heterosexual married couples ... including the right to wed, to adopt, etc.

In California, many feminists are anti-male patriarchy in any and every sense of the word, and believe that the biblical concept of a wife submitting to a husband to be (1) outdated; (2) slavery; (3) and absolutely wrong/evil.

An interesting side note is that many of the feminists I've encountered are (1) unmarried; or (2) divorced; or (3) lesbians/bisexual. Many also practice goddess-centric, non-christian faiths.

Needless to say, I'm no feminist.

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ORIGINAL: phosadaud

I know I'm not all that popular in this folder, but this topic interests me so I'm going to chime in.

I am one of those evil women who calls herself a feminist. It was a long road. The funny thing is, that it was actually a liberal, lesbian women's studies professor in college who first showed me that what we see on TV as radical feminists is only a very small segment and there are entire feminist movements that were just like me - conservative, pro-life and love and honor men. Sadly, this is like everything else in our culture - what makes the news isn't the mainline movement but rather the wacko people.

I finally decided, that I would not let a fringe group form the identity of something that started as something good and still can do much good.

I see this as no different that calling myself an evangelical Christian even though the ones who are in the "public eye" and make the news are usually whack jobs who wouldn't know Scripture if it hit them in the face. I see this as no different that proudly proclaiming my strong pro-life views even though the ones who make the news and get the attention are the psychos who bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors and wave large photos of aborted fetuses on public streets (I have a problem with that). I am not going to condemn all Christians for Fred Phelps. I am not going to condemn all pro-lifers for Eric Rudolph. I am going to condemn the crazies and proclaim the good - and what the movement should be about.

So do we still need feminism? When my 8th grade algebra teacher told us girls to study really well because girls simply don't get into higher math (funny, my AP calculus class in high school was mostly girls and most of the math majors in college I knew were women), I say yes. When groups try to suppress the reality of abortions - psychological, physical and spiritual because they find their cause more important than the women (and babies) suffering as a result of that cause, I say yes. When the #1 cause of death for pregnant women is murder, I say yes. When my boss can verbally abuse the women in his office and the only people to stand up to him are women, I say yes. When I can pass the same law enforcement testing process as men (even the physical) but people look at me like I must be un-qualified simply because I have boobs so I have to "prove" that I am capable whereas a guy is automatically assumed to be capable, I say yes. When women go to doctors for legitimate medical concerns and they tell them it's all in their head, I say yes. When women in labor are treated like children who can't make decisions regarding their care, I say yes. When a woman who stayed home to raise her kids tries to get back into the working force and is treated like the 18 year old who has never held a job, I say yes. When the courts let a guy off the hook for rape because the victim should have known better than to be alone at night, I say yes. When women's bodies are seen as nothing more than sexual satisfaction for men in porn, I say yes. When women can be whipped for daring to be seen in public with a male relative in some places in the world, I say yes.

So, the next time someone complains about all Christians being whackos and how hypocritical all pro-lifers are, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you demonize all feminists because of the extremists who make the news (which is why they make the news by the way). And the next time someone uses the term fundamentalist or evangelical as a derogatory term, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you use feminist as a derogatory term too.

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My husband knows the salary of everyone he works with (pay is a matter of public record for his laboratory), and the women do make less, but dH partially thinks that because women are less aggressive when negotiating salary. A company will deliberately low-bid a female, often because they know she won't fire back. My dH did fire back, with a counter offer that made them squirm - but in the end, they wanted him and he got the salary he asked for.

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Is there any legal rights that women in our country do not have? Most of what you all are describing is battling people's opinions, and I'm not sure that's a battle that's winnable.

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Is there any legal rights that women in our country do not have? Most of what you all are describing is battling people's opinions, and I'm not sure that's a battle that's winnable.

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ORIGINAL: moon_mouse

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Is there any legal rights that women in our country do not have? Most of what you all are describing is battling people's opinions, and I'm not sure that's a battle that's winnable.

What good are legal rights if our culture is such that one can't take advantage of those opportunities in some practical way? African-Americans had legal rights to vote, get an education, and work beside whites long before they had practical access to those things. Should they have stopped advocating for social change once the laws were on the books? If they had, I doubt we'd be in a place today where an African-American man could run for President, and have a reasonable chance of winning. There's certainly still work to be done, but the battle certainly can't be won if it's not fought. Isn't that kind of like saying we shouldn't try to win the world to Christ, because we know not everybody will be saved?

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What good are legal rights if our culture is such that one can't take advantage of those opportunities in some practical way? African-Americans had legal rights to vote, get an education, and work beside whites long before they had practical access to those things. Should they have stopped advocating for social change once the laws were on the books? If they had, I doubt we'd be in a place today where an African-American man could run for President, and have a reasonable chance of winning. There's certainly still work to be done, but the battle certainly can't be won if it's not fought. Isn't that kind of like saying we shouldn't try to win the world to Christ, because we know not everybody will be saved?

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IRL, the only self-identified feminists I've met have been on the extreme. And this is in rural/semi rural PA. Feminism is *strongly* associated with abortion and currently with gay rights.

So even though I do believe that basic Biblical principals teach the equal value of men and women, and that women should not just be well-treated but honored and loved sacrificially, I will not call myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated in any way with what it's become. I know many other women who are "feminists" by the book definition and much more liberal than me but who don't call themselves such, for pretty much the same reasons.

Proud to be...

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ORIGINAL: moon_mouse

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Is there any legal rights that women in our country do not have? Most of what you all are describing is battling people's opinions, and I'm not sure that's a battle that's winnable.

What good are legal rights if our culture is such that one can't take advantage of those opportunities in some practical way? African-Americans had legal rights to vote, get an education, and work beside whites long before they had practical access to those things. Should they have stopped advocating for social change once the laws were on the books? If they had, I doubt we'd be in a place today where an African-American man could run for President, and have a reasonable chance of winning. There's certainly still work to be done, but the battle certainly can't be won if it's not fought. Isn't that kind of like saying we shouldn't try to win the world to Christ, because we know not everybody will be saved?

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ORIGINAL: phosadaud

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ORIGINAL: moon_mouse

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Is there any legal rights that women in our country do not have? Most of what you all are describing is battling people's opinions, and I'm not sure that's a battle that's winnable.

What good are legal rights if our culture is such that one can't take advantage of those opportunities in some practical way? African-Americans had legal rights to vote, get an education, and work beside whites long before they had practical access to those things. Should they have stopped advocating for social change once the laws were on the books? If they had, I doubt we'd be in a place today where an African-American man could run for President, and have a reasonable chance of winning. There's certainly still work to be done, but the battle certainly can't be won if it's not fought. Isn't that kind of like saying we shouldn't try to win the world to Christ, because we know not everybody will be saved?

I totally agree. Some of my all-time favorite books/movies are the Lord of the Rings. I still remember in the 2nd movie when the "good guys" are faced with basically what is an impossible task of defending their people against an enemy that they have no way of stopping. At one point, they are faced with, why bother fighting because we are going to lose anyway? To which the wise respond to the effect that we may not win, but we have to fight.

Of course, they end up winning anyway, but the point is that some things aren't "winnable" in the truest sense of the term, but some things are still worth fighting for. Sometimes doing the right thing may not result in justice here on earth, but that doesn't mean it's not the right thing.

The world will never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we don't fight for what is right. If we can get one guy to realize that beating the snot out of his wife is wrong, the fight is worth it. If we can get one college kid to recognize that drugging the gal at the party and raping her is wrong, the fight is worth it. If one single mom gets to work fewer hours or one less job because she is paid fairly for her labor, the fight is worth it.

Another thing to note is that while things may be illegal, they still happen and people still try to get away with stuff because let's face it - when it comes to your job, being a whistleblower usually requires GREAT sacrifice. I'm thinking of a friend who tested for a position that she had had more than 20 years before. When she asked why she didn't get the position, she was told, in person and directly, by the person who does the hiring, that he would never, ever hire her because she had quit the department 20+ years earlier to raise her kids (who are now all heading off to college). She asked him if he ever made exceptions and he said yes, but he wouldn't with her. That is actually illegal but if she takes the department to court, who will want to hire her then? She'll get branded as a trouble-maker and the guy knew it.
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Switching gears a bit regarding pay differences. I believe there are a number of factors that come into play. Speaking strictly from my own job, these are the things I have heard coming from management:

1. Men should get paid more because they are "supporting their family" (which is funny because some of these men are single and some of the women are single moms). Yes, I have actually heard these words uttered from management.

2. If a man asks for a raise, he is justified. After all, it's hard to make it nowadays. If a woman does, she is not being a team player and one of "those" women. (I am speaking from personal experience having asked for a raise, did my research and brought the documentation to show that I was very underpaid for my position and yet still remained pleasant about it but boy did I take flack for even DARING to ask).

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ORIGINAL: christsstar

I don't think having to support a family should play into the pay scale at all. I think it should strictly be based on your job performance and job skills.

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
My job performance and job skills were good, too, so it wasn't just based on that. But my boss did say that she was paying me more because of my family.

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Well, it was her decision. I wasn't going to argue with her. I only brought it up because I wanted to point out that it's not only done for men.

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ORIGINAL: Sideways

It astounds me that companies are still pulling the "men have to support their family" nonsense, while women are labeled if they ask for the same treatment.

And yet, many in the Christian church continue to think that modern day feminists are nothing but men haters who want to do away with "family values". I'd bet many of the same men in church who are cursing the title of feminist, are also the company managers who deny women a raise because some man "needs it more then she does".

Just sickening.

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ORIGINAL: Sideways

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ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

Well, it was her decision. I wasn't going to argue with her. I only brought it up because I wanted to point out that it's not only done for men.

We weren't blaming you Lisa. But it is a much more common to give men the higher pay, even in this day and age, because they are "providing for their family". Male or female, though, it's still totally inappropriate.