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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/13/2008 5:02:06 PM
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Little_1
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Why should I doubt the One who has extended such amazing grace to me? If God's Word says something, I believe it and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. Doubts come from our enemy who sowed seads of doubt in Adam and Eve's minds, i.e. "Did God really say.....?" and he is still doing the same today! Crafty devil!
There is certain symbolism within the Bible OT and NT; however, I too am referring to the miracles of the OT.
And before anyone asks "Do you really believe in that little horned guy in a red suit with a pitchfork?" No I don't. I believe in a devil who comes as "an angel of light" and unless we are grounded in God's Word (which includes the OT as well as the NT) we may not recognise him nor his clever tactics.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/13/2008 5:12:35 PM >
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/13/2008 8:03:22 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Do you believe the Old Testament? Do you believe it literally?
I was watching Joe Rogan talk about Noah's Ark and it has been really tempting me to doubt
some of the OT events. Thanks for your thoughts.
Greetings,
As we speak they have already found the Ark and are organizing an expedition with Chinese Christians to go and bring back a piece for analysis.
LG
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/13/2008 9:09:36 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Do you believe the Old Testament? Do you believe it literally?
I was watching Joe Rogan
Joe Rogan, the UFC/Fear Factor/Newsradio guy?
quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Do you believe the Old Testament? Do you believe it literally?
I was watching Joe Rogan talk about Noah's Ark and it has been really tempting me to doubt
some of the OT events. Thanks for your thoughts.
It's only been in the last few hundred years that our definitions of science, history, geography, fiction, mythology, philosophy, and religion have become so separate and delineated. Everything was a lot fuzzier and more inter-related a few thousand years ago, so it can be tough for us to interpret certain material within the context that they were originally intended.
I'll admit, it sounds like a cop-out to read of people saying that the OT was intended to present spiritual truths and not be factually accurate, but to some degree, I believe that to be true. It's easy to interpret that position as saying that the Bible is full of lies and/or errors, but that's not accurate. A better explanation of the position is that parts of the OT were intended for a different purpose and that within the context and culture in which they were written, hard historical accuracy wasn't really important.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
As we speak they have already found the Ark and are organizing an expedition with Chinese Christians to go and bring back a piece for analysis.
No they haven't. If somebody had actually found Noah's Ark, it would be the single most important archaeological find ever. It would make finding King Tut's tomb seem like finding some pocket change in your couch; the Titanic would be a previously missing sock. You'd have every conceivable organization with a few bucks to spare throwing money at this to get their name attached to it somehow. I don't care how oppressive and atheistic the regime in charge, they wouldn't hide it because it would generate billions of dollars in tourism.
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That would be a real feat to get all this in there. The rise and fall of the dinosaurs,
The fall of the dinosaurs is widely thought to have been caused (at least in large part) by the meteor/comet strike that left the Chicxulub crater off the coast of the Yucatan peninsula. This theory is based upon the existence of a world-wide layer of soil rich in Iridium, which is very rare on earth, but is more commonly found in certain types of meteors. This soil layer represents the 'K-T boundary' - the separation between the Cretaceous and Tertiary Periods- and a mass extinction event that brought about the end of the dinosaurs.
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the dissappearance of any earths but the one we are on now,
The extra 's' was likely a typo. There are some weak cosmological hypotheses regarding oscillating universes and multiverses, but those are in their infancy and could likely never be testable.
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what you think was the source of the cosmic debris that formed the earth. That's a LOT of debris you are talking about.
Nucleosynthesis
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Then you'd have to explain how there's just exactly the right composition of gasses in the atmosphere to sustain life on earth, and where those gasses came from- why, all the explosions of solid cosmic matter?
The development of earth's atmosphere is not well understood. My basic understanding is that our atmosphere was not originally as cozy as it is now, but that early bacteria were responsible for converting high concentrations of carbon dioxide into oxygen.
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ORIGINAL: macramepoet
Kasey Tom....
If what you believe is true then the Bible as a whole is a lie. If life appeared some 3 billion years ago and man less than 100,000 then there were literally billions of years of death and decay before the fall of Adam. That is contrary to scripture.
That's one interpretation of scripture. However, I believe it's pretty clear from the context of what's being said in those passages and the context of other discussions of death in the NT that this is a spiritual death, not a physical death. Also, nowhere is this death specifically stated to have been imparted upon animals either.
The other alleged support for this position is that since God labeled His creation "good," then there could not have been any death, because we all know that death is bad. But it's my opinion that this is a largely unfounded assumption.
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In the past 2 centuries a great number of scientists have developed a great number of theories that contradict what scripture has to say about creation and the generations of man and, unfortunately, multitudes of Christians have chosen to interpret the Bible by science, and not science by the Bible. We have a choice to make. We can accept what we are offered by the scientific community and try to mold our faith around it, or we can accept what the Word says, and steadfastly declare that by faith we accept what God says.
And it's false dichotomies like this that have kept Christians out of the public sphere, unaware of what's going on around them, and increasingly irrelevant. Just because some on both sides have abused and twisted science towards some religious (including atheist) bent does not mean it actually supports those conclusions.
-Dan.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/13/2008 9:56:20 PM
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RefinersMetal
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Yea, unfortunately Joe Rogan actually is real big into pot and psychedelics, along with no rules fighting. His standup comedy is also extremely vulgur. There is a vid of him arguing with a guy about noahs ark. He also does standup about noahs ark sadly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMnThZgN-PM
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/13/2008 10:58:17 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Yea, unfortunately Joe Rogan actually is real big into pot and psychedelics, along with no rules fighting. His standup comedy is also extremely vulgur. There is a vid of him arguing with a guy about noahs ark. He also does standup about noahs ark sadly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMnThZgN-PM
LOL! I was kidding. I figured it was some televangelist that I'd never heard of who happened to share the name.
I'm watching the video... Is that REALLY somebody from Ron Wyatt's crew? LOL! Ron Wyatt was a charlatan.
There are plenty of reasons to not believe that the flood was global. Joe Rogan raises some legitimate issues, though they're pretty shallow and quickly countered by equally shallow arguments from the other side. It's once you get into the details that the flood story (and YEC in general) really falls apart.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:33:57 AM
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RefinersMetal
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Dan are you of the Christian faith?
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:55:07 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Dan are you of the Christian faith?
Yep.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 3:28:45 AM
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makarizo
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Noah's ark was discovered on June 21, 1987, on Mt ararat..... the finding has been verified, is now a Turkish national park, and there is even a visitor's center.
check it out
I believe the historical part of the old testament is all true and literal.
the lion's den, the fiery furnace, the whale that swallowed Jonah....... If I didn't, it would a choice/decision that was not based upon faith.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 7:38:25 AM
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SpiritualPowers
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Faith is essentially an act of trust, reliance or dependence on God. Rather than being passive, this leads to an active life of obedience to the one being trusted.
I am totally with Makarizo ( two thumbs way up).
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 7:53:24 AM
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PolarBear
Posts: 633
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Yes, I believe the events of the OT were literal. Not necessarily hyper-literal according to our English translations, but literal as in the possible definitions of the Hebrew words of the original. And I believe that big bang cosmology fits within those definitions quite nicely, beautifully reconciling science and the Bible.
Makarizo: Ahh, "Dr" Wyatt's "research." Riiiiiiiiiight.
Think about it: when Noah and his family got off the boat, there would have been no usable wood. They needed wood to build a city. Where else would they have gotten the wood but --- the Ark!?
The very idea of us finding the Ark today is nuts! We should not expect to do so.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:09:47 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
Yes, I believe the events of the OT were literal. Not necessarily hyper-literal according to our English translations, but literal as in the possible definitions of the Hebrew words of the original. And I believe that big bang cosmology fits within those definitions quite nicely, beautifully reconciling science and the Bible.
You must have a different bible than I do. My bible said in the beginning God created. Not in the beginning some cosmic junk hit each other and bam planets, stars, Space, time, moons, gravity, life,etc.....Get real.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:22:22 AM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
You must have a different bible than I do.
Doubt it.
quote:
My bible said in the beginning God created.
Mine too. And I believe exactly that.
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Not in the beginning some cosmic junk hit each other and bam planets, stars, Space, time, moons, gravity, life,etc.....Get real.
No, my Bible doesn't say anything about that either.
But numerous times in the Bible it says that God created from nothing. It talks about God transcending time. The old testament mentions 10 times that God is the one who "stretched out the heavens."
That is EXACTLY, precisely what big bang cosmology describes. There are many other clues throughout the Bible too, too many for this post.
Of course all that would be nuts if it weren't God controlling it. It required a designer to get "just right", and the God of the Bible is the only god among world religions that even comes close to being what big bang cosmology requires in a creator.
So it goes both ways: The Bible describes big bang cosmology, and big bang cosmology plus general relativity describe a universe that could have no other source but the God of the Bible.
This is one of the most powerful arguments for Christianity that I know.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:29:07 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
That is EXACTLY, precisely what big bang cosmology describes. There are many other clues throughout the Bible too, too many for this post.
However you're missing one thing. In the bible, God is not only described as Creator but Designer. We were made by His power and in His image. The animals were made in a certain way. The plants, the oceans, etc. were all made a certain way. The big bang theory does not address that because nothing organized can come from an explosion.
The two are mutually exclusive.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:32:07 AM
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SpiritualPowers
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Pray and let God sort it out . I am for creation and i care less how he did it .The fight here on earth means more to me than how God did smothing millions of years ago. It does tell you that Satan will lie and deceive you and i trust Jesus Christ and God not Man ,Sience Or anyones opinion including mine. God Bless us wihh the ability to love oneanother and trust him. I Need not question God about how but what is his will for me today.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:49:11 AM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
However you're missing one thing. In the bible, God is not only described as Creator but Designer. We were made by His power and in His image. The animals were made in a certain way. The plants, the oceans, etc. were all made a certain way. The big bang theory does not address that because nothing organized can come from an explosion.
Exactly. Big bang cosmology tells us how the universe came about -- or, more accurately, that the universe came from a singularity and expanded from there. The Bible says that too, on numerous occasions. (Not with quite the same terminology of course but all the concepts are there.)
God is also the Sustainer of the universe. Without Him and His wisdom in designing and sustaining, nothing would work at all.
The big bang does not describe how life arrived, and is not tied to evolution. (That is a very frequent misconception I see from Christians.) I myself do not believe in macroevolution.
Also I believe that the development of the earth was supernaturally guided, certainly not the result of "an explosion." Job 38:38 seems to refer to earth's formation in the way we would expect in a big bang universe. After that God had to strike a "just right" balance of the materials in the atmosphere, the sun's increasing luminosity, and the type and quantity of life on the planet. There is much evidence for design here -- any difference in one of these things would have sent the earth into a runaway greenhouse or a runaway freezer.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:51:19 AM
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armydude
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Then how do you explain the fact that Genesis says repeatedly, "God said," and does not mention an explosion?
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:54:12 AM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Then how do you explain the fact that Genesis says repeatedly, "God said," and does not mention an explosion?
Nobody said anything about an explosion. Even the big bang itself was not an explosion per se, just an expansion of space. It all had to start with laws of physics meticulously fine-tuned. The big bang is much better evidence for God than for atheism. Note that through its history atheists tried to argue against it! But now they can't because the evidence for it is too strong.
Yes, God spoke His will, and (with His design) it came to pass.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 9:00:21 AM
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armydude
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Evidence? What evidence? All we have is the findings that scientists say means ______. So we're really just taking their word on faith. Not for me, thanks. If I'm going to take anyone's word on faith I'll go with the One who is Faithful and True.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 9:08:12 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
Noah's ark was discovered on June 21, 1987, on Mt ararat.....
No, it wasn't. As I said earlier, Ron Wyatt was a charlatan.
This article tells a little about him and links to several others including this one.
As I said before - people can get grant money to research all sorts of things. If there were any legs to this, they'd be swimming in money and on the cover of every magazine you can think of.
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
However you're missing one thing. In the bible, God is not only described as Creator but Designer. We were made by His power and in His image. The animals were made in a certain way. The plants, the oceans, etc. were all made a certain way. The big bang theory does not address that because nothing organized can come from an explosion.
The two are mutually exclusive.
Actually, the Bible doesn't say that they were made "in a certain way." There's actually very little detail given at all - all it says is that the animals reproduce after their kind.
It's perfectly possible to design a system that has some measure of flexibility or even autonomy. That's what we humans do with genetic algorithms - we don't program the computer with the solution, we program it with the ability to adapt and find the best solution.
To be picky - the Big Bang theory deals with the formation and development of the universe - planets, stars, and such - not biological life. That's evolution (which, conversely, does not deal with the formations of stars and planets).
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 9:15:10 AM
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DaveW
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Do I believe the events that are not metaphorical happened? Creation in 6 days; the Red Sea parted; Noah's ark;etc. Definately.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 9:15:13 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1956
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Then how do you explain the fact that Genesis says repeatedly, "God said," and does not mention an explosion?
It doesn't mention any mechanics of creation - at all. What does it mean for God to say "'let there be light' and there was light."??? What does that really tell us about how He created the universe?
Nothing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Evidence? What evidence? All we have is the findings that scientists say means ______. So we're really just taking their word on faith. Not for me, thanks. If I'm going to take anyone's word on faith I'll go with the One who is Faithful and True.
That's all the evidence you have for believing anything you haven't personally studied and researched yourself. Can you read Greek and Hebrew? If not, how do you know that the Bible says what you think it says? How do you know that the translators aren't incorrect or deceitful. Even if you can read the ancient languages, have you read the original manuscripts? If not, how do you know that your copy matches the original?
To keep the moderators happy, I'll refrain from listing all the evidence for the Big Bang theory, but if you're interested in reading a bit more, check this out. If you want to discuss it, we can do so in the Science forum.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 9:20:50 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16902
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Then how do you explain the fact that Genesis says repeatedly, "God said," and does not mention an explosion?
It doesn't mention any mechanics of creation - at all. What does it mean for God to say "'let there be light' and there was light."??? What does that really tell us about how He created the universe?
Nothing. Actually it says everything we need to know. God said, and His Word was (and is) powerful enough to make a change. Why people have a hard time dealing with that, I don't understand.quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Evidence? What evidence? All we have is the findings that scientists say means ______. So we're really just taking their word on faith. Not for me, thanks. If I'm going to take anyone's word on faith I'll go with the One who is Faithful and True.
That's all the evidence you have for believing anything you haven't personally studied and researched yourself. Can you read Greek and Hebrew? If not, how do you know that the Bible says what you think it says? How do you know that the translators aren't incorrect or deceitful. Even if you can read the ancient languages, have you read the original manuscripts? If not, how do you know that your copy matches the original?
See, there's a difference in not going off the words of another person's study (after all, how do we know that's what it really means) and getting a little crazy with the idea.
I can't talk to the scientists because they seem to be scared of anyone questioning their beliefs. But I talk to my Heavenly Father every day.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 10:37:51 AM
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RefinersMetal
Posts: 34
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quote:
To say that the universe was created by a massive "BANG" is definitely contradictory to the word of God that states that He made everything that was made by His word.
God seems to have just used the big bang to start things with his Word
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