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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 10:42:28 AM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
quote:
To say that the universe was created by a massive "BANG" is definitely contradictory to the word of God that states that He made everything that was made by His word.
God seems to have just used the big bang to start things with his Word
Can that be supported with scripture since scripture MUST be the benchmark for deciding truth?
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 10:56:43 AM
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stellaluna
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I think the "bang" in "big bang theory" is metaphorical itself. I'm glad Polar posted in this thread because some of this stuff I came up with on my own a long time ago and never bothered to attempt to reconcile. I also can wrap my mind around God setting things in motion and then allowing things to "evolve" how they need to further down the line. That doesn't mean I believe in evolution the way it's taught, but I think some things about it aren't necessarily anti-scripture.
All that being said, I do believe the old testament. But I also recognize that the OT is not one book, but a set of books. It is a library that includes history, poetry, prophecy, allegory, metaphor, etc. I think that's how it should be.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 10:59:57 AM
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butterfly616
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Yes, I believe the Old Testament. Call it child-like faith in God's Word.
Luke 18:16-17
16 Then Jesus called for the children and said to the disciples, “Let the children come to me. Don’t stop them! For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like these children. 17 I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn’t receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it.”
1 Corinthians 13:12
12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[a] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:31:52 PM
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5in1
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You cannot take the old testament literally at all, It is fiction. poorly written fiction at that. When did ignorance of your surroundings and an archaic system of beliefs become desirable?
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:33:53 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
You cannot take the old testament literally at all, It is fiction. poorly written fiction at that. When did ignorance of your surroundings and an archaic system of beliefs become desirable?
Interesting. Nice work. Did you notice that you're in a Christian forum?
It is fact. Cover to cover.
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No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:42:13 PM
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5in1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
It is fact. Cover to cover.
Whatever you say Hoss.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:43:23 PM
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armydude
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I take it you don't believe it. Especially the way you said it was fiction. Believe me, I'm not mad. But when you get to the point that you're facing eternity you'll probably change your mind. I pray it's sooner than later.
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No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:52:12 PM
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5in1
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I am not afraid of eternity. I wouldnt want to go to heaven if it existed.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:53:29 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
You cannot take the old testament literally at all, It is fiction. poorly written fiction at that. When did ignorance of your surroundings and an archaic system of beliefs become desirable?
Probably when he looked at the archeological evidence for the history given in the bible. It's kind of hard to dismiss it as "poorly written fiction" when all of the objective scientific evidence confirms much of the history contained within pages of the OT! However, I would guess by the statement that you made that you really aren't interested in objective evidence, but would rather put your faith in personal opinion.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 9/14/2008 1:35:39 PM >
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:55:53 PM
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KaseyTom
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My personal belief is the OT was written in a manner the people of biblical times could understand and relate to.
The scientific explanation of the creation of the universe, the scale of the universe, the creation of the earth, the evolution of life and humanity all would be incomprehensible to even the greatest scholars a thousand years of more after the OT was written.
The concept of a billion, or even a million, didn't exist for the people OT times. Distance beyond what one could travel by horse of ship were unimaginable. Past time beyond what one could count in generations was unthinkable.
Had the OT been written today, I believe it would have been written in a manner that made logical sense to modern scientist and scholars.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 12:58:11 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
I am not afraid of eternity. I wouldnt want to go to heaven if it existed.
Let's see... eternal bliss, no sin, no war, etc. You don't want to go?
If you say so. Just remember that it was your decision.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 1:19:42 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
5in1 -
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 3:08:49 PM
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Kath
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You guys are getting way off topic. We do have a Science and Origins folder to debate creation.
Do you believe the Old Testament? Do you believe it literally?
Stick to the topic.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/14/2008 8:31:55 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Actually it says everything we need to know. God said, and His Word was (and is) powerful enough to make a change. Why people have a hard time dealing with that, I don't understand.
Who has a hard time dealing with that? I don't. I know PolarBear doesn't. I absolutely 100% agree with everything you said in this sentence. The Bible says everything we need to know: we need to know that God created the universe. But... It doesn't say all there is to know, nor does it claim to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
See, there's a difference in not going off the words of another person's study (after all, how do we know that's what it really means) and getting a little crazy with the idea.
For most average non-scholar folks such as you and me, we more-or-less have to go off the words of experts for some things. I'd argue that neither the commonly held theories in science nor commonly held Christian doctrine would be "getting a little crazy."
quote:
I can't talk to the scientists because they seem to be scared of anyone questioning their beliefs. But I talk to my Heavenly Father every day.
Scientists are in the business of questioning each others' beliefs - that's how science progresses. We'd never have the theory of relativity if people hadn't noticed that Newton's equations were a bit off in some cases. Scientists are currently working on replacing relativity and quantum mechanics with something more comprehensive, because as strong as they are, they each have their own shortcomings. I'd imagine that some scientists have gotten a bit tired of defending their work against attacks that aren't scientifically valid or that attempt to use known weaknesses to trash an otherwise strong theory.
I'm sure some are as you described - but there are folks like that in any group. I've met plenty of Christians like that. But I'd bet that if you went and found a geologist or an astronomer or a biologist (particularly one who was also a Christian) and approached them with an honest, non-confrontational humility and asked them for help understanding the basics of their science, they'd be more than happy to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I think the "bang" in "big bang theory" is metaphorical itself.
IIRC, it was actually intended to be perjorative - it was a mocking title given by its detractors that just stuck.
But to respect the moderator's wishes, if you wish to discuss the details of various scientific theories, let's head over to the Science forum.
-Dan.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/15/2008 5:44:43 AM
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PolarBear
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Edited, TOS 18
Nevertheless, there are other OT miracles to discuss other than Creation.
Balaam's donkey? Yes, I believe he talked.
Joshua's long day is another interesting one. I absolutely believe that the sun "stood still" over that battle for a day. How God did it, the Bible doesn't say, but I strongly suspect the effect was local to that battle. God could have put up a "cosmic mirror" to point the sun's light where it needed to stay for a whole 24 hours. Another interesting theory is that He could have "forked time" in which the participants of the battle went into a different time dimension orthogonal to the universe's timeline, in which the planets and sun did not move. When the battle was over, they could have "snapped" back into the universe's timeline. An observer would have seen the participants move instantaneously, and the enemy suddenly dead.  God also could have stopped the earth, making a global effect, but my understanding of His character is that miracles are as localized as possible to accomplish His will.
< Message edited by Kath -- 9/15/2008 7:28:05 AM >
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/15/2008 8:00:46 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
You cannot take the old testament literally at all, It is fiction. poorly written fiction at that. When did ignorance of your surroundings and an archaic system of beliefs become desirable?
When Christ saved my soul!!!
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Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/15/2008 8:08:18 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
You cannot take the old testament literally at all, It is fiction. poorly written fiction at that. When did ignorance of your surroundings and an archaic system of beliefs become desirable?
When Christ saved my soul!!!
I hope you are kidding! There is no reason for Christians to be "ignorant of their surroundings"; ignorance is rejecting the historicity of the bible when the evidence has repeatedly shown it to be a reliable witness of history.
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/16/2008 1:56:49 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Do I believe the events that are not metaphorical happened? Creation in 6 days; the Red Sea parted; Noah's ark;etc. Definately.
What he said.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 9/16/2008 2:57:15 AM >
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RE: Believe the Old Testament? Literally? - 9/16/2008 2:28:58 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 5in1
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Sidenote: For those non-Christians that have actually studied the bible, the historical accuracy of the bible is seldom challenged. While non-Christians often challenge the miracles of the bible, and find it difficult to place their faith in God, most who have looked at the evidence acknowledge the accuracy (minus the miracles) of the biblical stories. It is typically the ignorance of those who have never read it and never bothered to study history that allows them to call it "poorly written fiction".
Wow that is very untrue, Show me any historical evidence for moses or the great flood outside of the bible. I have read the bible. Very boring, and very inaccurate.
Let's start with the Story of the Exodus,
There are the references from archeology that tie the Hebrew slavery mentioned in Exodus to Pithom and R'amses under the reign of Ramasses II, See the discussion in Gardiner, Ancient Egyption Onomastica, II 1947, A.410, pp. 171-175, 278-279 or the treatment of Ex. 1:11 by D. B. Redford, VT 13 (1963), pp. 401-418, or K.A. Kitchen's Ancient Orient and the Old Testament.
Look at the 'Israel Stela' which commemorates a victory of Merenptah over the Libyans in the the 5th year of Ramesses II, and mentions that the peoples of Syria-Palestine including Israel, showing that they were already in Western Palestine by 1220.
See Glueck's surveys of the Transjordan showing a renewed density of occupation from about 1300BC, after a lapse of five centuries. Glueck, The Other Side of the Jordan, 1940, pp 125 ff., 123 ff., 134, and also Albright, BASOR 90 (1943), note 77a to pp. 17-18
Look at the Evidence for Joshua's conquest in Canaan, K. M. Kenyon, Digging up Jericho, 1957, pp. 170-171, and esp. 181, Look at Y. Yadin's discussion of the Late Bronze Age inhabitants continued use of the Middle Bronze Age ramparts.
How about the story of Noah,
First one has to consider the parralells between the many different Flood stores such as the Gilgamesh Epic, the Atrakhasis Epic, etc...See W. G. Lambert, JSS 5(1960), pp. 113-123, esp. 115-116; for the reconstructed cuneiforme text of Atrakhasis see W. G. Lambert and A. R. Millard, cuneiform Texts ...(British Museum), XLVI 1965. Also see Ancient Mesopotamia, 1964 by A. L. Oppenheim.
One also must take into consideration that the story of the Flood is nearly universal in the Ancient world, over 30 different cultures all share a common Flood story.
So, What historical evidence do you have that shows either of these stories to be untrue, not your conjecture or opinion, but objective evince. Please provide your references. I have provided only a small fraction from the source I have on my book shelf.
BTW as you get move towards later biblical history, the amount of archeological evidence for its history grows exponentially. By the time you reach the period of the divided kingdoms, it would take many books just to list the references to materials found that collaborate the history of the bible.
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and in 6 days, He created what appears to be a 4 billion year old Earth. we can see stars that are more than 10,000 light years (9.4605284 × 10to the19th meters) away (longer than the Earth has been around) Simply because it was created that way. we have a nice pic of more than "20" nearby galaxies, the closest one estimated to be 3.26 million light years away... and the universe keeps expanding, and all scientists have is a silly rate of expansion based on the hubble constant to go on. 
It's skeery in there!!! 
LOL 
