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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 8/10/2008 12:24:13 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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From: a mother who let me live
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I cannot find it in this thread -- perhaps I wrote it in another thread -- but somewhere on CW, I wrote some months ago that I was reconsidering my position regarding women in a marriage relationship. Perhaps it was on another thread, because I had stopped my subscription to this one.
Since I am not sure where I wrote that, I will simply write here that I have reconsidered my position and am doing all I can to live according to my understanding of the biblical concept and not according to what any person tries to promote.
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Eeyow! I thought I was in Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread! Sorry!!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 8/10/2008 10:37:44 PM >
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 7:49:19 PM
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cwb
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quote:
I would like your opinion on not women in ministry as this is in every church, but specifically what do you understand, think or believe about a woman pastor AND would you attend a church where the pastor was female? What about it would you like, and what about it would be problematic? Love amd Prayers, Karyn
1 Cor ch 14 says women are to keep silence in church.
Exactly what that means, I don't know, but it seems pretty clear, and I don't believe a woman's place is the pulpit.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 7:54:22 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
quote:
I would like your opinion on not women in ministry as this is in every church, but specifically what do you understand, think or believe about a woman pastor AND would you attend a church where the pastor was female? What about it would you like, and what about it would be problematic? Love amd Prayers, Karyn
1 Cor ch 14 says women are to keep silence in church.
Exactly what that means, I don't know, but it seems pretty clear, and I don't believe a woman's place is the pulpit.
Actually, there are a few reasons to think that Paul was actually arguing AGAINST the idea that women should keep silent. It's not exactly within the scope of the current thread, but if you're interested in hearing the argument, send me a PM.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 8:01:19 PM
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cwb
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Actually, there are a few reasons to think that Paul was actually arguing AGAINST the idea that women should keep silent. It's not exactly within the scope of the current thread, but if you're interested in hearing the argument, send me a PM.
???
Somethin' about posts that start with 'actually' always seems to bother me. Kinda' like, "Actually, you're wrong..."
Scripture says BOTH tho'? Wow! Post up the verses man!
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 9:11:10 PM
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GroupW
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Sorry - I didn't mean to offend with my "actually". You're right - there really is something vaguely offensive about that. Never stopped to think about it before, though.
Here's what I wrote last year on the topic of 1 Cor 14 in a response to someone else:
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1. Don’t you find it extremely odd that while spending most of Galatians arguing that the law has passed away and there is a new covenant in place that Paul suddenly resorts to the law to defend why women should be silent? ("Women should be silent in the church, as the law says...")
2. How do you account for the word in v. 36 that many translations omit – Paul says “What? Did the word of God originate with you?”. There’s what some scholars have called an “exclamation of disassociation” here. It would indicate disagreement with what precedes the “what?” word. What’s he disagreeing with?
3. Don’t you find it odd that Paul is talking about orderly worship saying EVERYONE may speak, then saying “Oh, except women, they have to remain silent”, but then later saying “do not forbid to speak in tongues” without any gender limitation. It seems like the text flip flops here.
4. Doesn’t it make more sense that the passage in versus 34 and 35 reflects Paul quoting a statement by the jewish Christian community that was seeking to impose a jewish order of worship where women were indeed asked to be silent? He then interjects the “WHAT?” exclamation and then proceeds to disagree and says in effect “let them speak.” You will recall that the greek manuscripts don’t punctuate so the translation that we have, though technically correct in lumping it all together,
5. Keeping in mind that the original Greek had no punctuation at all, is it possible that we've misunderstood and mistranslated his intent here?
6. Very few churches take this passage seriously. We find all sorts of justifications of why it's OK for women to speak. I don't see the wiggle room for that. Either women can speak, or they can't.
So, my point being this: wouldn’t the passage read more consistently if it were punctuated thusly: (from the American Standard starting at 14:31)
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…For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.
(Adding quotes to denote Paul quoting a statement he is disputing) “As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.”
(End quote)
What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently and in order.
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Punctuated this way, the troublesome reference to the law is mitigated completely as is the dissonance between the use of “all” in being able to speak in the section before and the generic command not to forbid speech in the section following. Overall, it’s got a much better flow and avoids having to take a more conflicted & subjective position that Paul really didn’t mean “silent” but something a bit more moderated.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 10:00:51 PM
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cwb
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Yeah - scripture does occasionally say DIFFERENT things about any particular topic, but it NEVER says OPPOSITE things about any particular topic.
What God says, He says. I don't know how many different things the verse COULD mean... "... silent in churches, ... not permitted to speak..."
If a pastor wants to recognize a woman to make a church activity announcement, that's between him and the God he worships. I don't want to hear announcements by ANYbody - man OR woman - during church.
Silent women? Even choir? Beats me bro' - it's God's Word; not mine.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 10:05:36 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
Yeah - scripture does occasionally say DIFFERENT things about any particular topic, but it NEVER says OPPOSITE things about any particular topic.
What God says, He says. I don't know how many different things the verse COULD mean... "... silent in churches, ... not permitted to speak..."
If a pastor wants to recognize a woman to make a church activity announcement, that's between him and the God he worships. I don't want to hear announcements by ANYbody - man OR woman - during church.
Silent women? Even choir? Beats me bro' - it's God's Word; not mine.
I agree - the bible doesn't say opposite things about a topic. Why it says here that women need to be silent when it says elsewhere that they may speak is a good question that's worth discussing. This is my attempt to reconcile the apparent contradiction. You have to admit, there's at least some logic to it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 10:06:39 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cwb
I don't want to hear announcements by ANYbody - man OR woman - during church.
We share a pet peeve.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 5:00:37 AM
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TheosCentric
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(1Co 14:33 ESV) For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
(1Co 14:34 ESV) the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
(1Co 14:35 ESV) If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
(1Co 14:36 ESV) Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?
In the context of the passage, this most likely applies to the subject of speaking in tongues and prophesying, but it does point out that husbands are the spiritual leaders in the home. I believe there were such serious issues with women giving false doctrine in the church in Corinth, that Paul had to make this statement.
For a true teaching that women should not be pastors in a church, you need to look at the qualifications for elders and deacons in 1 Timothy 3. That is pretty clear.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:00:14 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
For a true teaching that women should not be pastors in a church, you need to look at the qualifications for elders and deacons in 1 Timothy 3. That is pretty clear.
Even this is not so clear because Paul specifically names women Deacons in his salutation at the end of Romans, and the early church embraced women deacons.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:12:57 AM
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TheosCentric
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G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.
From Romans 16:1 in talking about Phoebe. This can simply refer to one who serves in the church. It is not necessarily referring to the office of deacon as referred to in I Timothy 3.
(1Ti 3:2 ESV) Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
(1Ti 3:12 ESV) Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Same word as in Romans 16:1 for deacon, but different use.
Unless you want to argue that this was contextual...
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:17:09 AM
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:19:06 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Unless you want to argue that this was contextual...
and very cultural.
To say the pastor is a man with one wife is not to say that it must be a man but to say that the person holding this office (irrespective of gender) is to be one whose household reflects a godly life.
*coughs*
You cannot be serious?!?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:20:32 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Unless you want to argue that this was contextual...
and very cultural.
To say the pastor is a man with one wife is not to say that it must be a man but to say that the person holding this office (irrespective of gender) is to be one whose household reflects a godly life.
*coughs*
You cannot be serious?!?
If I'd said it I would be.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:25:10 AM
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:26:21 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Unless you want to argue that this was contextual...
and very cultural.
To say the pastor is a man with one wife is not to say that it must be a man but to say that the person holding this office (irrespective of gender) is to be one whose household reflects a godly life.
*coughs*
You cannot be serious?!?
If I'd said it I would be.
How does one determine what is cultural or not? When the passage clearly says, "husband of one wife," I expect that's what it says. To determine it culturally would be to say, "wife of one wife," "husband of one husband," "wife of one husband," etc.
That's the problem with the church today. We want to interpret the scripture in light of culture, instead of in light of what other scripture says. Culture should not dictate the plain teaching of scripture.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:29:10 AM
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GroupW
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When I say that, I don't rely on today's culture to determine meaning. The culture that existed THEN however bears directly on the meaning of a passage. To ignore historical culture in the exegesis of a passage is a common but fatal mistake.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:34:13 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
When I say that, I don't rely on today's culture to determine meaning. The culture that existed THEN however bears directly on the meaning of a passage. To ignore historical culture in the exegesis of a passage is a common but fatal mistake.
BT
And I would agree with that. So, then, do you agree that the passage teaches that the offices of elder and deacon should be that of men in context of them being husband of one wife?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:34:55 AM
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:40:52 AM
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GroupW
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Theos-
Here's why I said that. I'll let emerging speak for himself.
When Paul writes that the elder of a church must be the husband of one wife, it sounds very simple on the surface. But I think you have to pair that off against other things that Paul wrote and try to see if it's consistent. In this case, a surface reading of the text leads to a conclusion that is at odds with other things Paul wrote. We both agree that this isn't something Paul would have intended, so the next question needs to be "what else is going on here".
For example, Paul himself was single. Did he intend to rule himself out as an elder? Of course not, since he essentially already functioned as one in his church planting and leadership roles. Christ was single. It's silly to think that Paul would have ruled Christ out as a potential elder. Clearly "husband of one wife" isn't to be understood as necessarily being married then.
If it's not an admonition to have married elders, what is it then? Well, certainly elders are to have their relationships properly ordered. That much is certain. Are they to be necessarily male? Maybe, and maybe not. I'm not completely sure. Since "husband of one wife" is all in one big linked phrase, if you can rule out being married as a necessary feature of the officeholder, maybe it's possible that Paul did not intend the maleness that that phrase simultaneously communicates to be a necessary part of it as well. Maybe what Paul really cared about was Godly behavior within one's family & social circle.
Now, I'm under no delusion that I've suddenly converted you to an egalitarian standpoint here. Still, I'm pursuaded that two people can honestly approach this passage and come away with two well reasoned but opposite conclusions.
This is where I stop arguing about it and rely on the old saying "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity."
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:43:41 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Most of the problems surrounding debate on this topic today arise from where we begin. I begin not with our culture or even Paul's culture but I begin where any of us should begin when reading scripture and that is by asking: Who is God? In whom is God most revealed? What in this revelation is being shown that transcends culture, space and time? ...
Personally, I always start with Paul's culture. I want to know what Paul might have had in mind when he was putting pen to paper. Sometimes that's easy. Sometimes it's fiendishly difficult. It's always where I start. After that, I can ask the questions you show above. First, however, I like to set a baseline.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 10:51:24 AM
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 10:55:05 AM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
That's fine, IMO, so long as our baseline does not violate the essential being of Christ and what identity really is as found in Christ.
Agreed. That's always a "gut check" for me. If I pursue an interpretation that somehow runs counter to what we think we know of Christ, then that's an indication that I need to explore something more deeply and reconsider either what it is that I think I know of Christ or my interpretation of a passage.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men/Women roles in the church - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 5:07:55 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
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From: Eastern NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
and very cultural.
Cultural?
I don't think Jesus does 'culture'.
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We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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