RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (10/17/2008 8:31:28 PM)

The requirements for deacons and elders are pretty clear. Men only, I am not saying women can't do other things, but it is what the bible says, why is it even disputed? Deacons and elders are not anymore important to God than any other position, it is just different. That doesn't make men any better that is just the way God ordained it.



rwe2156 -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 7:26:30 AM)

Excuse me, but there were deaconesses. See Romans 16 for a good example of
the leadership of women in the early church.

Good reasons for women not to be pastors have more to do with pastoring
than handling the word of God. Some are equipped, most are not. Same
reason why most CEO's are men, not women.

Of course, most "good" pastors are also good personnel directors, no? [:)]



TheosCentric -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 8:25:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

Excuse me, but there were deaconesses. See Romans 16 for a good example of
the leadership of women in the early church.

Good reasons for women not to be pastors have more to do with pastoring
than handling the word of God. Some are equipped, most are not. Same
reason why most CEO's are men, not women.

Of course, most "good" pastors are also good personnel directors, no? [:)]


As has been discussed before, Romans 16 is not talking about an office of deaconess.

There is a difference between being a Deacon and a deacon or deaconess. One is an office in the church, to be held by a man as put forth in Timothy.

The other is to be a servant. The Greek word for deacon literally means servant. All Christians are called to be deacons, in that sense. Jesus was a deacon in that sense.



benelchi -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 8:43:04 AM)

quote:



As has been discussed before, Romans 16 is not talking about an office of deaconess.


According to some; however, many biblical and Greek scholars do not accept your interpretation.

quote:


There is a difference between being a Deacon and a deacon or deaconess. One is an office in the church, to be held by a man as put forth in Timothy.

The other is to be a servant. The Greek word for deacon literally means servant. All Christians are called to be deacons, in that sense. Jesus was a deacon in that sense.


There is no distinction made in the text between "Deacon" and "deacon"; it is your interpretation that "deacon" should be understood as "servant" and not "Deacon" and many prominent biblical scholars disagree with your interpretation.

BTW - the word "deaconess" isn't in the text at all; it is "deacon"



TheosCentric -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 8:49:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:



As has been discussed before, Romans 16 is not talking about an office of deaconess.


According to some; however, many biblical and Greek scholars do not accept your interpretation.

quote:


There is a difference between being a Deacon and a deacon or deaconess. One is an office in the church, to be held by a man as put forth in Timothy.

The other is to be a servant. The Greek word for deacon literally means servant. All Christians are called to be deacons, in that sense. Jesus was a deacon in that sense.


There is no distinction made in the text between "Deacon" and "deacon"; it is your interpretation that "deacon" should be understood as "servant" and not "Deacon" and many prominent biblical scholars disagree with your interpretation.

BTW - the word "deaconess" isn't in the text at all; it is "deacon"

And many Biblical and Greek scholars agree with my interpretation. What's your point?



benelchi -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 9:05:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:



As has been discussed before, Romans 16 is not talking about an office of deaconess.


According to some; however, many biblical and Greek scholars do not accept your interpretation.

quote:


There is a difference between being a Deacon and a deacon or deaconess. One is an office in the church, to be held by a man as put forth in Timothy.

The other is to be a servant. The Greek word for deacon literally means servant. All Christians are called to be deacons, in that sense. Jesus was a deacon in that sense.


There is no distinction made in the text between "Deacon" and "deacon"; it is your interpretation that "deacon" should be understood as "servant" and not "Deacon" and many prominent biblical scholars disagree with your interpretation.

BTW - the word "deaconess" isn't in the text at all; it is "deacon"

And many Biblical and Greek scholars agree with my interpretation. What's your point?


The point is that almost all of those Biblical scholars who do agree with your interpretation would still refrain from making the dogmatic, "case closed" kind of statement you made. Those scholars who have spent their lifetime studying these passages typically recognize the possibility of other interpretations even if they don't believe they are the best option. They will passionately argue their point of view, but graciously recognize interpretations that differ from their own. A good example can be found in the book "Women in Ministry, four views". Two of the contributors to this book accept your perspective, and two don't, and yet in each of the four contributor's arguments and rebuttals they refrain from the kind of dogmatism evident in your post.



KyivJoy -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/12/2008 1:06:20 PM)

Wasn't Pricilla a deacon.

When Paul says about women not talking in the assembly he says 'I do not allow'. He has not said that God does not allow, but that he doesn't. Being brought up as a strict, Jew, he would have found this very hard to put behind him.

heard on the TV the other night. If you were drowning and a woman jumped in to save you would you say no you your a woman. It is the same when someone is saving us spiritually, you wouldn't say, 'I don't want to hear what you say, you're a woman.'

As for women priests, in my home town of Basildon in England, most of our churches would be closed if we didn't have women priests there. I also have a friend who is a priest in Sudan. No man wants to take it on because of the dangers there, so what do we do, not give them anyone to lead them

At this point I want to say that the only time I talk to the Assembly is when I'm fund raising for our own children's charity or for others. I am not the type that can preach. If I were to start people would wonder what I was waffling on about, but I also know many women who can and do preach and people listen to them as soon as they start.

God gave each of us gifts to use in His work, whether men or women, so if a woman's gift is to preach, should we be the ones to tell God he is wrong.



Ezra -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/13/2008 12:27:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KyivJoy

Wasn't Pricilla a deacon.


No. There were no female "deacons" in the NT churches.

quote:

When Paul says about women not talking in the assembly he says 'I do not allow'. He has not said that God does not allow, but that he doesn't. Being brought up as a strict, Jew, he would have found this very hard to put behind him.


Since Paul is writing under the direct control of the Holy Spirit (divine inspiration) what Paul does not allow God does not allow, and what God does not allow Paul does not allow. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and this is Scripture. Therefore this is not merely a man's opinion.

quote:

heard on the TV the other night. If you were drowning and a woman jumped in to save you would you say no you your a woman. It is the same when someone is saving us spiritually, you wouldn't say, 'I don't want to hear what you say, you're a woman.'


This is a rather lame analogy. Why not stick to Scripture and simply believe it? To believe is to obey.

quote:

As for women priests, in my home town of Basildon in England, most of our churches would be closed if we didn't have women priests there. I also have a friend who is a priest in Sudan. No man wants to take it on because of the dangers there, so what do we do, not give them anyone to lead them


First of all the idea of male "priests" or female "priests" is contrary to the New Testament. All believers are "priests" or a "Royal Priesthood", and some believers are called to be ministers of the Word.

Secondly, this is a purely humanistic argument. The real issue is: were the women earnestly praying for God to send men into the mission field, and also encouraging men they know to do so? Women were never appointed "priests" in Israel nor "pastors" in Christian churches because that is not according to the will or mind of God.

quote:

At this point I want to say that the only time I talk to the Assembly is when I'm fund raising for our own children's charity or for others. I am not the type that can preach. If I were to start people would wonder what I was waffling on about, but I also know many women who can and do preach and people listen to them as soon as they start.


Once again, the issue is not whether women can preach or not, but whether they may preach to both men and women. Women can certainly minister to other women.

quote:

God gave each of us gifts to use in His work, whether men or women, so if a woman's gift is to preach, should we be the ones to tell God he is wrong.


While God gives spiritual gifts as He chooses, He has also laid down clear directions as to who may or may not be a pastor/elder/bishop or a deacon. That is the issue that must be faced regardless of other considerations.



kingdele -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/14/2008 4:32:44 PM)

I don't understand why there is still controversy about the role of women in the church. This is my philosophy,
quote:

if I was Saved by the Holy-Spirit, through the witness (preaching) of a woman, I don't think I will get to heaven and challenge that woman and say, "How dear you preach to me (a man)"
Instead, I will probably be very very grateful to her, because what a man didn't do, the Holy-Spirit used her to do. And this was what actually happened to me. God saved me through the preaching of a woman.

So. this is how I see it, "If a woman in a congregation is more mature, gifted and anointed than any man in that congregation, I don't see a problem in her taking the lead and leading others to maturity." She should however be ready to step back from that role (from that role to a less visible leadership role) after the lord builds a man up enough to take the lead. Because this is the principle of the Bible. Read about Deborah in Judges 4&5.

You-all can keep on arguing back an forth about this, but what I have to tell you is that if God sees it as necessary to give the gift of Prophesy, Teaching, Preaching, Signs and Wonders to a woman, who am I to stand in the way of her exercising those gifts. Am I wiser than the Lord who gave those gifts and called the person to such an office.

Ladies,
quote:

If the Lord has called you and make sure it is Him that called you (not your Flesh wanting glory), don't be afraid to do what God has called you to do. However, don't be disobedient or disruptive to the Godly authority of the Church (otherwise you will be out of God's will) in doing so. This is the way I think, if I can't preach in church, I think I can evangelize the lost outside of church



MrFribbles -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/14/2008 4:38:50 PM)

quote:

So. this is how I see it, "If a woman in a congregation is more mature, gifted and anointed than any man in that congregation, I don't see a problem in her taking the lead and leading others to maturity." She should however be ready to step back from that role (from that role to a less visible leadership role) after the lord builds a man up enough to take the lead


Why? If you really believe there is no problem with that woman leading, why should she step aside when a man comes along?



kingdele -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (11/26/2008 12:32:59 PM)

Do you think that leadership is only about pastoring? I am a leader in my own way (by God's grace), but I am not a pastor or regular preacher.

If you read my quote carefully and study the bible passage I gave, you will understand why I said that a woman should be ready to strep aside.



Will4God -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/3/2008 3:18:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

Excuse me, but there were deaconesses. See Romans 16 for a good example of
the leadership of women in the early church.

Good reasons for women not to be pastors have more to do with pastoring
than handling the word of God. Some are equipped, most are not. Same
reason why most CEO's are men, not women.

Of course, most "good" pastors are also good personnel directors, no? [:)]


The purpose of a Deacon was to serve the poor and ill. This was true for male Deacons as it was for female Deacons. This was never a position of eldership or that of an overseer.

I have no idea why or how the meaning of this term was ever changed by man. I'll surmise that it had to do with the illusion of boosting ones own self importance. [>:]

I think that pride has an awful lot to do with the desire to become a pastor in the first place. While there is a hierarchy in church, one position is not 'more important' than another.



Godhead -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/23/2008 9:38:47 PM)

I would think that a woman has enough to do in the home to be concerned so much with running a church. Let the men tend to the manly duties, and the woman, the womanly duties. Remember that the Man was created first and the woman to be his helper. If you want to prove your worth in the church, keep it clean, look after the food at fellowship lunch. Tend to your womanly duties. Thats if you want to be approved in the eyes of God. Let this be in the heart of every woman...

Who can find a woman of virtue? For her value is far above rubies. The heart of her husband trusts safely in her, so that he shall have no need of plunder. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, and works willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she brings her food from afar. She also rises while it is still night, and gives food to her household, and a share to her young women. She considers a field, and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. She binds her loins with strength, and makes her arms strong. She sees that her merchandise is good; her lamp does not go out by night. She lays her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretches out her hand to the poor; yea, she reaches forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household; for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She makes herself coverings; her clothing is silk and purple. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits among the elders of the land. She makes fine linen and sells it, and delivers girdles to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her sons rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her. Many daughters have done well, but you excel them all. Favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears Jehovah, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. (Pro 31:10-31)

That is your mandate, that is your calling, take to it with the enthusiasm and joy that is befitting a woman of God. Knowing that you are doing your Lords will, and will be greatly praised for it, at His return. Yet what will He have to say to the women who are not where they are suppose to be? If we approve of women teaching in the church, then we might just as well approve of gay marriages and anything else that is against the natural order of our God's creation.



benelchi -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/24/2008 12:27:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead

I would think that a woman has enough to do in the home to be concerned so much with running a church. Let the men tend to the manly duties, and the woman, the womanly duties. Remember that the Man was created first and the woman to be his helper. If you want to prove your worth in the church, keep it clean, look after the food at fellowship lunch. Tend to your womanly duties. Thats if you want to be approved in the eyes of God. Let this be in the heart of every woman...

Who can find a woman of virtue? For her value is far above rubies. The heart of her husband trusts safely in her, so that he shall have no need of plunder. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, and works willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she brings her food from afar. She also rises while it is still night, and gives food to her household, and a share to her young women. She considers a field, and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. She binds her loins with strength, and makes her arms strong. She sees that her merchandise is good; her lamp does not go out by night. She lays her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretches out her hand to the poor; yea, she reaches forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household; for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She makes herself coverings; her clothing is silk and purple. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits among the elders of the land. She makes fine linen and sells it, and delivers girdles to the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her sons rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her. Many daughters have done well, but you excel them all. Favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears Jehovah, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. (Pro 31:10-31)

That is your mandate, that is your calling, take to it with the enthusiasm and joy that is befitting a woman of God. Knowing that you are doing your Lords will, and will be greatly praised for it, at His return. Yet what will He have to say to the women who are not where they are suppose to be? If we approve of women teaching in the church, then we might just as well approve of gay marriages and anything else that is against the natural order of our God's creation.



I strongly agree with that middle paragraph; however, the beginning and concluding paragraphs are way off!



Godhead -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/25/2008 11:54:29 PM)

You disagree but for what reason. What I said was based on proverbs. Why would any woman want anymore responsibility then that? If I was a woman, I would gladly leave it all up to the men. If looking after the home, and shopping, cooking and stuff like that was what God wanted of me, I would be happy. It would be hard work at times, but it would be something that I could do. And there is no strict judgment attached to it, like the is to being a teacher. And it is an important work. A man needs a good wife, the home a good mother. Not a proud or lazy one. Feminism is the ruin of both society and the family unit. I would never marry a woman who refused to submit to God. I would rather be a eunuch. [:D]



Qtman -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/26/2008 9:40:52 AM)

Man with that attitude you may not have much of a choice in the matter.[:D]

ETA Unless you are already married.



SirWintery -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/26/2008 11:03:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead
If you want to prove your worth in the church, keep it clean, look after the food at fellowship lunch. Tend to your womanly duties.


A woman's spiritual worth in the "church" which is the living body of believers, not a building, is not to "keep it clean", but to live as a spiritually alive and active part of the body of Christ and ministering to whatever situation she finds herself in, as God leads.

There is no standing around holding a vacuum cleaner and being a mannequin instead of reaching out, witnessing, praying and speaking healing words as any believer should.



Qtman -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/26/2008 12:05:01 PM)

Woman was created as a help-mate not a slave to household chores. My beloved wife has always taken her role as a help-mate seriously.

She worked to help her mate attend and graduate from college.

She worked to help her mate buy a decent house.

She worked to help her mate send their kids to school.

Now she works to help her mate put aside enough money to retire.

I dearly love my help-mate and owe her more than I could ever repay.

BTW some of the most wise counsel I have ever heard in a church came from a woman.



phosadaud -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/26/2008 1:07:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead
Why would any woman want anymore responsibility then that? If I was a woman, I would gladly leave it all up to the men. If looking after the home, and shopping, cooking and stuff like that was what God wanted of me, I would be happy.


1. If you really read Proverbs, you will see that the woman of Proverbs is NOT a 50s housewife. She was a business women who earns money and provides for her family. She is a wise instructor and teacher. She is involved in the ministries of the body. She is the financial manager. Oh, and this only refers to a wife - it is not written for all women. Only wives. (There is no command in Scripture that all women must be wives and there are numerous examples of women who were not wives and strangely God used them for His purposes anyway.) [;)]

2. Your idea of what God created ALL women to be is incongruous with many examples throughout Scripture. God gave each of us different skills and giftings and passions. Why would He do this if the ONLY role women were supposed to have is running the vacuum?

3. 1 Corinthians 12 is not written to ONLY the men on the church - Unless of course, you think that women are not part of the body of Christ. [;)]

4. You will have a hard time finding a woman who only cleans up after you and cooks your meals and who also FULLY submits to Christ because Christ has a long history of using women to do more than cook and clean. But, good luck with that... [;)]



SirWintery -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/26/2008 5:36:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Godhead

If looking after the home, and shopping, cooking and stuff like that was what God wanted of me, I would be happy. It would be hard work at times, but it would be something that I could do.



I'm trying to figure out who gets out of "looking after the home, and shopping, cooking and stuff like that."

There is no "God _doesn't_ want this of me", everybody that is able has to do this. Unless someone else like their parents does it for them.

There is nothing inherently feminine about those things. Every military that has ever been has procured food, prepared it, served it and taken responsibility for their camp or fortifications.

Proverbs 31 is one chapter out of the Bible and there is no reason to say that it gives a fully detailed and complete or all-encompassing description of every moment in every woman's life in Christ. The description given there should certainly enhance a woman's role and elevate it from someone who merely keep the building clean, though. It is not a limit-setter on how God can use women; as has been pointed out such an idea would contradict other Scriptures.



lw9 -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/27/2008 12:39:02 PM)

quote:

Stephanos: Problem is God would NEVER call someone to do something He expressly forbids. God would not call you to be a homosexual. God would not have called Israel to worship false Gods. God would not call someone to be a abortion doctor. THere are somethings God DOES NOT DO, not matter what the person says they were lead to do. If the bible does indeed limit what we know today as the Pastorial ministry to just men, then no matter how many women say they were led to be pastors, it is not true. Just because someone says they were "led by God" does not mean a single thing. Again, how many mothers have killed their children and said "God told me to", or how many have committed mass murder thinking God told them to?

As for the Box...I believe in and worship the God who has revealed Himself through Scripture. Scripture is the SOLE SOURCE for my understanding of Him and His commands. If the bible forbidds soemthing, that is the end of that. Period, end of argument. If that is putting Him in a box to you, then so be it. But it is the box that God HIMSELF has put Himself in as He the bible is His word.


I agree with SovereignisHe. Excellent post and the truth! [sm=thumbsup.gif]



benelchi -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/27/2008 1:25:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

Stephanos: Problem is God would NEVER call someone to do something He expressly forbids. God would not call you to be a homosexual. God would not have called Israel to worship false Gods. God would not call someone to be a abortion doctor. THere are somethings God DOES NOT DO, not matter what the person says they were lead to do. If the bible does indeed limit what we know today as the Pastorial ministry to just men, then no matter how many women say they were led to be pastors, it is not true. Just because someone says they were "led by God" does not mean a single thing. Again, how many mothers have killed their children and said "God told me to", or how many have committed mass murder thinking God told them to?

As for the Box...I believe in and worship the God who has revealed Himself through Scripture. Scripture is the SOLE SOURCE for my understanding of Him and His commands. If the bible forbidds soemthing, that is the end of that. Period, end of argument. If that is putting Him in a box to you, then so be it. But it is the box that God HIMSELF has put Himself in as He the bible is His word.


I agree with SovereignisHe. Excellent post and the truth! [sm=thumbsup.gif]


The problem is that on the question of women in ministry, the bible doesn't make such a clear stand on this issue. There are women leaders in the first century church that Paul commends. And there are textual difficulties in some of the passages that appear to make the strongest case against women in ministry. For example, one of the passages referenced most often by those making a case against women ministering in the church is in 1 Ti. 2, but there are significant textual difficulties that make such an interpretation questionable. Most biblical scholars readily acknowledge that most modern translations of this passage do not accurately convey Paul's intent (even those who support a very "traditional" of women in ministry). Translations of this passage prior to the 1920's were unanimous in their rendering of this passage, and in the case of this passage, there is no new manuscript or archeological evidence to support the shift in tone present in most modern translations.



lw9 -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/27/2008 1:51:52 PM)

quote:

benelchi: The problem is that on the question of women in ministry, the bible doesn't make such a clear stand on this issue.


It does in fact make such a clear stand on this issue, and no doubt after 220 pages everything that can be said has already been said so my reposting scripture isn't going to make a dent. It should not even be up for debate, but here we are.

Suffice it to say that as a woman, I totally accept the Biblical position of male leadership and authority. Personally I do not recognize any woman who has placed herself in that position. She can claim to be called to pastor all she wants, but her claims are not supported in scripture and therefore not supported by God.

It is rebellion.



benelchi -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/27/2008 2:08:21 PM)

quote:

It does in fact make such a clear stand on this issue, and no doubt after 220 pages everything that can be said has already been said so my reposting scripture isn't going to make a dent. It should not even be up for debate, but here we are.


And if you had bothered to read the 220 pages posted here, or bothered to look at this history of how this has been practiced in the church over the centuries (including the first century), or bothered to read the works of those who have spent a lifetime studying this issue, you would quickly realize that it such a clear cut issue.

It always amazes me when even the scholars that support the "traditional" view of women in ministry, readily acknowledge the textual and historical difficulties with that viewpoint, that those who have not put the same time and effort into studying the issue will dogmatically declare it a "clear cut issue." The reality is that this topic presents textual and historical challenges to every viewpoint, and honest scholarship will acknowledge the strengths of opposing viewpoints, and the weaknesses of their own viewpoint.



lw9 -> RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread (12/27/2008 3:36:46 PM)

quote:

benelchi: And if you had bothered to read the 220 pages posted here, or bothered to look at this history of how this has been practiced in the church over the centuries (including the first century),
or bothered to read the works of those who have spent a lifetime studying this issue, you would quickly realize that it such a clear cut issue.


And it always amazes me how some will look to extra-Biblical sources to uphold their views.

Historical church practice? History and tradition is not equal to scripture. There are many, many historical examples of the church wandering off the path in practice and in doctrine. Not a great idea to look to flawed church history for absolute truth.

Scholars? As someone else has pointed out, you can find just as many scholars who will denounce women in leadership. Who's right, who's wrong. Again... not a great idea to look to them when the truth of scripture stares us all in the face. We have and need only one interpreter, Who is the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear enough on this matter.



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