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RebeccaLM -> Roman 9 (9/15/2008 12:14:48 PM)

[8|]Does anyone have a view on Romans 9 : 8-33. My son has the idea that God made people the way they are and wonders why people are evil and why God made them. I do not know how he got this out of this passage.... but tried to tell him that God does not make evil.... we choose it.
He said God already knew the choices we would make so why make them?
I really did not have a good answer for him. Anyone want to help me out with this?



LCannon -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 12:39:29 PM)

Paul says, Romans 6:1-"Some say since the price is paid the redeemed has license to indulge our vanities. 2 Give me a break! Obedience and license can’t be accomplished in the same soul. 3 We’re identified by our baptism, either into Christ Jesus in His death and Victory or remain in our baptism to indulge in vanity. 4 In the former case, we have been buried through His baptism and raised with Him into the glory of the Father so we too might be obedient stewards of His Victory. 5 For, if we have become united in identification in His obedience certainly we shall be alike in His Victory." and again Romans 7:24-"Wretched man that I am! Can anyone set me free to obey righteousness? 25 Yes! Thanks be to God through Christ Jesus our Lord! So then, on the one hand my mind is serving the law of God but on the other with my flesh, the law of sin."

Romans 9(?):25-"25 Jehovah declared through the prophets, "My Beloved nation will reject My Truth hence they are not called 'My People' since all are called 'Beloved' when they appropriate the Son’s obedience. 26 Jerusalem will be called a blessing and a curse for in Jerusalem, Israel rejected their Messiah and the Gentiles accepted and there, He acknowledged them as Sons of the Living God." 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the nation Israel be like a teeming mass, only a remnant can be saved[from judgment] 28 for the Lord will judge absolutely[based on our response to His Sacrifice.]" 29 Further, Isaiah warned, "Unless Jehovah ordained our inheritance[by accepting Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf] we are destined to suffer Sodom’s fate." is telling us regardless of our experience with Jehovah, little or great, we're equally responsible to His righteousness.



drmark -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 2:09:09 PM)

Oh my, Rebecca, you have picked one of the most controversial passages in all of Protestant history to begin your career on the Theology threads! Welcome to the Forums, but be prepared to read lots of differing opinions on Romans 9. Here is a somewhat long but scholarly Arminian Exegesis of Romans Chapter 9.

quote:

He said God already knew the choices we would make so why make them?
I really did not have a good answer for him. Anyone want to help me out with this?
Very simply, your son has a faulty view of God's Omniscience. Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination or predeterminism. God loves us so much that He gives us all the ability to choose right and wrong. However, God retains the ability to "choose" the consequences of our actions. While God may know what action we will eventually take regarding His offer of salvation, He still provides the means to accept or reject that very offer. In some theological circles, that is called "free or prevenient grace".



twincities -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 2:28:40 PM)

romans 9-11 is about the jews. God is dealing with the jews for a period of time.



DaveW -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 3:15:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twincities

romans 9-11 is about the jews. God is dealing with the jews for a period of time.
Rom 9 has to be taken with the next 2 chapters. It is dealing with Israel/ the Jewish people. It should not be taken in a more general sense.



Bluethread -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 6:35:09 PM)

I would differ on it being only about the hereditary Jew. Using the hereditary Jew, I believe, Paul is telling us that heredity does not save. Many gentiles count on heredity, baptism and human confirmation as true confirmation of salvation. Salvation is by Adonai's grace alone.

If Adonai were impersonal, we would have the basis of the greek tragedy. No matter what one does one can not escape ones destiny as determined by the impersonal fates. Shakespear restates this with romance in the place of the fates. The problem with these world views is that they presume an impersonal force as the infinite and omnipotent power that provides no direction regarding right and wrong.

That said, though Adonai knows everything and has control everything, it is unreasonable to act in a fatalistic manner. Adonai is a personal creator who not only provides direction with regard to right and wrong, but takes part in the affairs of men. Therefore, if one chooses to act in a fatalistic fashion, ones life becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. If one acts on the belief that it doesn't matter whether or not one follows Adonai's ways, then, in accordance with Adonai's ways, such a person brings upon himself curses, as did Pharoah. On the other hand, if one acts on the belief that it does matter whether or not one follows Adonai's ways, then, in accordance with Adonai's ways, such a person brings upon himself blessings, as did Abraham.

So, given this state of affairs, how should we then live? If I choose to act poorly, I must count on others to do well. I am therefore at the mercy of others. If I choose to do well, I know at least things are not as bad as they would be had I done nothing. Thus, at least from my prospective, I have some part in improving my life. So, the conclusion is that the man who chooses to follow Adonai's ways is better off than the man who chooses not to.



Theophile2 -> RE: Roman 9 (9/15/2008 9:01:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Using the hereditary Jew, I believe, Paul is telling us that heredity does not save. Many gentiles count on heredity, baptism and human confirmation as true confirmation of salvation. Salvation is by Adonai's grace alone.


An outstanding point on Romans 9.

Rebecca, you have been provided in an earlier post an opinion of Romans 9 according to one particular theology, so please allow me to give you another way to look at Romans 9 from a different theological perspective. May I recommend that you look here:

by Pastor John Samson

by John Calvin

some other things to think about

Which explanation you or your son chooses is up to you. What is important is you and your son remaining steadfast in your faith in Christ.

“preserve unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials, and charity in both” (- Rupertus Meldenius, circa 1627)

Blessings to you ...

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]



frankman -> RE: Roman 9 (9/16/2008 4:12:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RebeccaLM

[8|]Does anyone have a view on Romans 9 : 8-33. My son has the idea that God made people the way they are and wonders why people are evil and why God made them. I do not know how he got this out of this passage.... but tried to tell him that God does not make evil.... we choose it.
He said God already knew the choices we would make so why make them?
I really did not have a good answer for him. Anyone want to help me out with this?


I think your son is being taught this passage from an extreme predestination point of view. So allow me to deal with the above question first.

God is not the creator of evil nor did He make men evil. When God finished creating the world and us humans He said of it all in Gen.1:31 "God saw all that He had made, and it was very good." Now evil is not good.

Men had a choice. We are not created as robots. So in Gen.3 we chose to disobey God and sin, thus resulting in evil, murder, the curse and death. God knew this would happen before creation and that is why He promised us a Savior in order for us to be rescued from the eternal consequences of our sins in Gen.3:15.

Again we are not robots. If we had been created as robots we would not have been able to choose to sin in Gen.3. Maybe this would have been a good thing seeing what sin has done to this world, however it would have removed the element of God`s love for us in giving us free choice. We have free choice. We can choose Jesus or choose to reject Him. Joshua tells the Israelites in Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve." We can choose evil or God.

Rom.9 is sometimes controversial because of it`s predestination interpretation. Tell your son not to get hung up in trying to understand all this. One seminary professor once said of this chapter. "Try to explain election, and you may lose your mind, but explain it away and you will lose your soul." (whatever it all means, it`s to complicated for me to explain) Just make sure he knows he my choose to believe in Jesus and Jesus will always be there to love and accept him just the way he is. Knowing this is what is of most important.



LastofAll -> RE: Roman 9 (9/20/2008 2:14:29 AM)

The point to the chapter lies in verses 30-33, which is the chapter´s conclusion. The Gentiles or non-religious have attained to the righteousness of faith, but Israel or religious have not attained to the law, that is, by way of legalism. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith(by reliance to God´s will), but by ceremonies, rituals, formalisms: this was their stumble.



ae10u -> RE: Roman 9 (9/21/2008 12:26:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RebeccaLM

[8|]Does anyone have a view on Romans 9 : 8-33. My son has the idea that God made people the way they are and wonders why people are evil and why God made them. I do not know how he got this out of this passage.... but tried to tell him that God does not make evil.... we choose it.
He said God already knew the choices we would make so why make them?
I really did not have a good answer for him. Anyone want to help me out with this?



Here is my tuppenceworth...

God did not make us evil - little babies are neutral, and as they grow up they do both good and bad naturally. Environment can push them more to one way or the other - but all of us are just basically going about the business of surviving - almost like all other animals. That is how God made us.

But there was one thing God, with all his power could not do - and that is make us want a relationship with Him. That we have to choose and nurture - just as we have to do with all our other friends.

Contrary to those who believe in predestination (I think it was Luther who pushed this heresy) God does not know what choices we will make. People read more into scriptures than they actually say.

For instance...
1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
God knows all things that there are to know, (or that can be known). This does not say that God knows every future choice we make. So many preachers take comfort in the idea that God is in total control because He knows everything which is about to happen. God can make anything He wants happen, but for the most part, God just allows life to happen. There are many other scriptures which imply that we have real choices to make - the biggest being whether we follow Him or not (see Gen 22:12 where God said "Now I know..." after testing Abraham - He did not know before).

The big question is not whether folks are good or evil (because all are both good and evil). The big question is whether we are the friend of God (like Abraham was), because God will only give us eternal life if we are his friends. Even if we satisfied some standard of "good", that would still not give us eternal life, since God gives it to whom He will, and He gives it to His friends.



Bluethread -> RE: Roman 9 (9/21/2008 1:47:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LastofAll

The point to the chapter lies in verses 30-33, which is the chapter´s conclusion. The Gentiles or non-religious have attained to the righteousness of faith, but Israel or religious have not attained to the law, that is, by way of legalism. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith(by reliance to God´s will), but by ceremonies, rituals, formalisms: this was their stumble.


It is vitaully important that we understand the context of Romans. Paul is not saying that anyone is righteous with our without the law. In chapter one he sets forth the purpose of the letter.

1:16-17 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

He then shows us how all have become totally corrupt. Upon establishing this he then in chapter 2 he tells us the results of that corruption.

2:9-11 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

Now, in my opinion, refering to the Gentiles and calling them "non-religious", and calling Israel "religious", without context, interjects a perjudice into this letter that I don't believe Paul intended. By the time we get to chapter 9, Paul has made it clear that the ways of the gentiles are not acceptable to Adonai. However, (Rom 2:14-15) (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Therefore, it is through the revelation Adonai first recorded by Israel that we come to understand salvation by grace through faith, even if some have somehow obtained that revelation through some other means.

Thus, in chapter 9:30-33, these Gentiles who have a true understanding of salvation without the aid of the written Torah(Law) have attained what was not attained by those of Israel who do not have a true understanding of salvation even with the aid of the written Torah(Law). So, being a Gentile or a Jew, religious or nonreligious is not important when it comes to salvation.

I understand this is a bit clumsy and simplistic, but it is very difficult to explain the epistle to the Romans out of context. It is a very long and detailed epistle and it is best read without the chapter breaks. That is because, it is really one long argument for salvation by grace through faith based on the Tanach(old testiment).



Ezra -> RE: Roman 9 (9/21/2008 2:10:24 AM)

quote:

It is vitaully important that we understand the context of Romans.


This is true. The context of Romans 9 is the book of Romans, and this book focuses on the "the Gospel of God" ( 1:1). In the context of the Gospel, Paul writes about Israel and its relationship to the Gospel (chapters 9-11).

There are two primary thoughts in this chapter: (a) the Gospel does not set aside God's covenants with Israel (v. 11) and (b) God's grace and mercy are governed by His sovereign will (v.15).

It is in this context that we find that Israel, inspite of all its spiritual priviliges stumbled at the Gospel because it stumbled on Christ -- "the stumblingstone".

God only hardens those who choose to persist in their hardness of heart. Pharoah at the time of Moses is a prime example (v.17). But the Pharisees during the time of Christ are also equally good examples.

This chapter has nothing whatsover to do with God creating some to do evil and others to do good, nor does it teach that some are predestined to be saved and others to be lost.



bob97 -> RE: Roman 9 (9/23/2008 1:16:28 AM)

Romans 9:22 - 24 (NLT) 22In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction. 23He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.


In reading the above verses Ezra there would be some who would disagree with your statement but this is not the time or place.

Bob



Ezra -> RE: Roman 9 (9/27/2008 2:33:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Romans 9:22 - 24 (NLT) 22In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who were made for destruction. 23He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

In reading the above verses Ezra there would be some who would disagree with your statement but this is not the time or place.



I'm not sure which "statement" you are referring to, neither can you take 3 verses out of Romans 9 in isolation from the rest of the chapter, the rest of the book, or the rest of Bible, and create a doctrine that says God has created some to be evil and others to be good. Therefore this is the time and place to discuss this matter in the light of all Scripture.

1. God created man in His own image and likeness.
2. God created man to have dominion over His earthly creation.
3. God created man to love Him and fellowship with Him eternally.
4. The first Adam sinned and brought a curse upon the human race.
5. The second Adam removed that curse through His life, death, and resurrection.
6. God desires all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
7. Christ came into the world to save sinners -- not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

In light of these Bible truths, what does Scripture mean when it speaks of some men "who were made for destruction" (as translated above)?

We should firstly understand that this statement is made from God's perspective, not man's. God sees the end from the beginning, therefore He can rightly say about those who persist in their sin, harden their hearts, and refuse to repent that "they were made for destruction".

Does that mean that God created them so that they would harden their hearts in spite of themselves? Did God really predestine some for Hell?
Absolutely not. He has made all human beings free moral agents. Those who choose to reject Him, reject the Gospel, refuse to repent, and deliberately harden their hearts to the voice of the Holy Spirit are therefore "made for destruction". They have -- by their own choices -- condemned themselves to Hell.

The book of Romans also declares clearly and emphatically that God will have mercy on ALL (which you forgot to quote). Therefore those who do not experience His mercy are the ones who deliberately choose to reject Him and His offer of salvation.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Roman 9 (9/27/2008 3:13:52 PM)

Please take the discussion about predestination to THIS THREAD.


Thanks!

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Rebecca1965 -> RE: Roman 9 (9/28/2008 2:51:39 PM)

Some pretty deep thoughts have come from this subject.... Romans in itself is so deep... thankyou all for your help



eschatologist -> RE: Roman 9 (9/28/2008 6:50:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RebeccaLM

[8|]Does anyone have a view on Romans 9 : 8-33. My son has the idea that God made people the way they are and wonders why people are evil and why God made them. I do not know how he got this out of this passage.... but tried to tell him that God does not make evil.... we choose it.
He said God already knew the choices we would make so why make them?
I really did not have a good answer for him. Anyone want to help me out with this?


Yes God already knows the choices we're going to make, but He doesn't make those choices for us. We still have to make them ourselves. All people are sinners, irregardless of the choices we make in life. Sin was brought into the world because of Adam and Eve's choice and decision to disobey God in the Garden of Eden.

"Wherefore as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the rightousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:12 and 18)

This sinful nature of man brought into the world by Adam's transgression is always with us and can not be overcome by our own trying hard to be good. The only real choice we have to make is to accept or reject Jesus as our Saviour. Since sin is automatically imputed upon all men, the only way to be saved is to have righteousness automatically imputed on us by faith. This happens when we recieve Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord will not impute sin. Abraham believed God and therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."(Romans 4:6-8 and 22)

Once you recieve Jesus, righteousness is automatically imputed upon you by Faith, all your sins are washed away by His sacrifice for you and everlasting life is assured for you.

The reason people reject Jesus is because they love the darkness of sin and they don't want the light to expose them.

"This is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved, but he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21)

People make all kinds of excuses, but the main reason they refuse to accept Jesus is because they love the darkness of sin more than the light of truth. In refusing to make a choice, that, by itself, is a choice. By refusing to make a choice to accept Jesus he has made a choice to reject Him. And all he is doing is making an excuse for his choice in order to justify himself.

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. (Romans 9:18) And with all decievableness of un righteousness in them that perish; because they revieved not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (IIThessalonians 2:10-12)

It all goes back to their personal choices. They made choices to live a lie and to love darkness and sin and therefore God hardens their heart so that they become even more sinful and rebellious and hardhearted.



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