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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:27:04 PM
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nicole6598
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What about an elderly person who may not have been aware it was black friday and happened to go to walmart that day? they thought they were in for a nice shopping trip, didn't think they would get mobbed. Are you saying they aren't being responsible? I don't see why the people who are doing the right thing should get punished and told to not go there for a bargain just because of some stupid people.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:30:09 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
What about an elderly person who may not have been aware it was black friday and happened to go to walmart that day? they thought they were in for a nice shopping trip, didn't think they would get mobbed. Are you saying they aren't being responsible? I don't see why the people who are doing the right thing should get punished and told to not go there for a bargain just because of some stupid people.
I'm not sure that anyone that senile could go shopping on their own.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:32:16 PM
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Nicole_Michelle
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I think elderly people would know about black friday. And they would see all the people waiting outside and all the people inside. And probably all the ad's about it too.
The reason I am saying the that people doing the right thing should stay home in bad situations is because bargains are just bargains. There is more to life than getting something for a cheap price. And there are sales all the time. So why risk your own safety to get a good price if you see that crazy bargain hunters are already there? I could see some people driving to a store, seeing how chaotic it was, turning around and going home while other people would see the chaos and still risk it. I really doubt someone will go to the store and not realize it is black friday shopping.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:34:28 PM
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nicole6598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
What about an elderly person who may not have been aware it was black friday and happened to go to walmart that day? they thought they were in for a nice shopping trip, didn't think they would get mobbed. Are you saying they aren't being responsible? I don't see why the people who are doing the right thing should get punished and told to not go there for a bargain just because of some stupid people.
I'm not sure that anyone that senile could go shopping on their own.
My grandmother is not senile at all, she doesn't watch much tv, doesn't look at catalogues, she would just be going in on her normal day of shopping. She wouldn't know it was some special day if she didn't watch the tv or read the catalogues would she?
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:35:14 PM
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MamaMilty
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Especially at 4am.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:39:51 PM
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Nicole_Michelle
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Well then if a person gets hurt without knowing what is going on that is even more sad. But it is unavoidable. I am not saying that crazy shoppers are ok. It is stupid that people will hurt people just to get something, but it happens all the time. Innocent people get hurt and killed all the time. Not just when they shop. Like the poor guy that came to our city to learn English as a second language so he could start up his business. He got shot in the face and is now blind. It was gang violence and the bullet missed its target and hit this innocent man. Stuff like this happens all the time even when you think you are in a safe area.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:40:00 PM
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nicole6598
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So this rampage happened at 4am? We didn't see the time or anything on our news
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 5:44:07 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Yeah, stores open at the crack of dawn. 4/5/6 am...
It's not exactly an unknown day, or anything new. People have been shopping on Black Friday for years and years.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 6:27:09 PM
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SweetLittleErin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetLittleErin
It happen in our little town of less than 10,000 people. It is a widespread mentality, and thats the REALLY sad part.
I agree with you Lexie on the pregnant lady, hubby and I were discussing the same thing. On a similar note I know a couple of women who took very small babies (5 months or so) out on Black Friday shopping, to me that just seemed wrong and irresponsible. (Of course I dont take my baby anywhere, but our circumstances are a little different...)
I guess that depends on what time of day it was  I wouldn't take any child out at 5am, but at noon or 2pm? Why not?
But like I said... I went, and it was no more busy then normal. Actually, it was quieter in Walmart then it would normally be on a day when most people don't have work.
It was the 5am shopping I was referring to mainly. Later that day, no biggie. But to stand in line waiting for stores to open at 5am....
As far as tickets and numbers....you'd just have the riots and violence to get the tickets......
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 6:32:03 PM
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myka
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quote:
But it is unavoidable.
I disagree; I think it is completely avoidable. People just do not get killed by shoppers all the time...
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 7:02:17 PM
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myka
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This particular event was completely avoidable... There were a lot of actions and decisions made that led up to the mob and ultimately the killing of a person -- this worker wasn't even a shopper who decided to go out and participate in the craziness of the mob.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 7:09:40 PM
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lexie
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Living in Toronto, I completely agree with you Nicole that some of these things are unavoidable. There is a major trial going on here over the murder of a 15 year old girl on Boxing Day. She was shopping on the country's busiest street, left a store and was caught in crossfire. No one saw that coming and the only way to avoid stuff like that is to not go anywhere (I live in a rough neighbourhood, but the stuff that happens here, happens in the nice neighbourhoods as well, so it's not necessarily a matter of avoiding certain places.)
But I do also agree with Myka that this situation could have been avoided. If it were someone in the crowd who was trampled, I'd say that's unfortunate, but you were part of the mentality and could have easily done it to someone else. But this man was a worker just doing his job and he wasn't even doing his job at the time because it was the crowd that opened the doors on their own accord. Better security posted at the door, security doors or barricades, oh yeah and people having at least some common sense would mean this tragedy could have been avoided.
Plus, it's not like this is the first time such a thing has happened, so you would think retailers would start taking better measures.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 8:14:21 PM
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PrincessDonna
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I think to say it is unavoidable is like saying Brian's accident was unavoidable because those tractors are legal and farmers are just doing their jobs (which is what the insurance company keeps telling our lawyer...). No, the situation was not unavoidable by BRIAN on that day, but it was avoidable on the part of the farmer.
Sure, I guess it was avoidable for the man who was killed. He could have called in sick and lost his job. That's what happens when you call in sick on Black Friday in retail. But really, it was avoidable on the part of the mob and I believe on the part of Walmart.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 8:24:24 PM
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spitzu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
By saying "just don't shop on those days" you are giving people a licence to act like morons.
Exactly. Oh, let's just forget for a few hours one morning that we're humans and should treat other human beings with basic respect for their life! If you don't like it, oh well... stay home! That makes no sense to me. How can things change if people are that apathetic?
Plus, what about that worker? Could he have "just stayed home"? What if he had a family to feed and HAD to be there that morning or risked losing his job, his home, his way to eat and provide shelter for himself and his family? He wasn't there for sport, I'm sure. He was there to work and earn a living. I guess he had it coming to him though? 
Just to be clear, I have absolutely no desire to buy anything at 4am on any day, unless I'm in my PJs on my couch, buying with my laptop. However, I don't think people (shoppers and workers alike) should be trampled or fear for their lives because of idiots who care more about saving a buck on a toy than they do about plain human decency. I agree, people who act like that should be penalized. Not just the ones responsible for the man's death, but also the ones that punch people and steal things out of other people's hands.
I'm surprised Gina, that you haven't seen that behavior in your area. Since we see it here, I would have assumed it would be even worse there in a larger city. I haven't seen it first hand obviously lol, but on the news and hearing from family and friends that do the early morning thing.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 9:25:01 PM
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nicole6598
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There needs to be a standard of decency and I think saying "oh well don't shop at that time" is letting them get away with bad behaviour. The world is bad enough without some poor guy going to work and being killed by people stampeding to get a bargain.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 10:24:29 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
There needs to be a standard of decency and I think saying "oh well don't shop at that time" is letting them get away with bad behaviour. The world is bad enough without some poor guy going to work and being killed by people stampeding to get a bargain.
I don't think people are saying no one should be held to a standard. I think the point is that we've seen how there's a problem now that's not being fixed (or hasn't been remedied yet); we should take that into account when we choose what we do that day. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a "rule," or accountability.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 11:45:01 PM
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magdaleine
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I just asked my son who has stood in long lines in the wee hours of Boxing Day, waiting for stores to open; what has his experience been about the crowd behaviour. He says that what happens is store employees come outside to the line-up with "tickets" for each item. So, say, there are 10 laptops and 20 ipods (amongst other things) that are the crowd drawers. They will start at the head of the line and ask each person what they're there to buy. The first ten people in line who are wanting the laptops each get a ticket for a laptop, the ticket being good for 2 hours. So there is no need to rush into the store because they're already guaranteed the item they came for. He says it's very orderly and calm and there's a sense of camaraderie amongst those waiting. Perhaps our harsh climate makes a difference. I was reading today that of cities with a population of 500,000 or more, we are the coldest in the world.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/3/2008 11:59:42 PM
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ThursdaysChild
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Hi, ladies!
I'm away for a few days and you take off!
It's a shame about that poor man and you're absolutely right about their making an issue of his being poorly trained. Hello! He wasn't hired to be security. He was hired as a temporary worker. Most people who work retail aren't trained for crowd control. They shouldn't have to be.
While I agree with Rami on some points there's a gross error in her comparison with professional sports. The participants in sports expect to get hurt. It's part of the game and they're willing to put up with it and expect it. No one should have to expect to be injured or killed for a day of shopping, no matter how much of a crowd or bad behavior is expected.
The pregnant woman should have taken better care of herself but it's NOT HER FAULT that she lost her baby. It's the fault of the boneheads trampling her. The man wasn't killed because of lack of training. He was killed by the boneheads trampling him. The crowd is at faulth and I pray they can identify some faces from the video and prosecute them. The families should file a HUGE lawsuit against Wal-Mart. They don't want to close due to the money they'd lose? Let them lose as much or MORE in a lawsuit as a result of this tragedy.
OK, off my soapbox.
The other night I went to buy fatayer (savory pies) for my twins to take to school for their party. It took an hour to get there. It's only a few km down the street but traffic is horrible. I ended up going off on a couple of idiots trying to have a fight by my car. The guy's car was blocking my car and I started yelling at them to move. I pounded on the hood until the driver noticed me and told him to knock it off cause I wanted to go home. After they recovered from the shock of this American woman yelling at them, they moved along. LOL You can read about it HERE. It should be the 2nd post, unless I post again today.
We leave tomorrow for the States. We have slow dial-up at the farm so I don't know how much I'll be online. Have a wonderful Christmas, ladies, if I don't have the chance to say so later.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/4/2008 12:45:33 AM
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nicole6598
Posts: 3818
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ThursdaysChild
Hi, ladies!
I'm away for a few days and you take off!
It's a shame about that poor man and you're absolutely right about their making an issue of his being poorly trained. Hello! He wasn't hired to be security. He was hired as a temporary worker. Most people who work retail aren't trained for crowd control. They shouldn't have to be.
While I agree with Rami on some points there's a gross error in her comparison with professional sports. The participants in sports expect to get hurt. It's part of the game and they're willing to put up with it and expect it. No one should have to expect to be injured or killed for a day of shopping, no matter how much of a crowd or bad behavior is expected.
The pregnant woman should have taken better care of herself but it's NOT HER FAULT that she lost her baby. It's the fault of the boneheads trampling her. The man wasn't killed because of lack of training. He was killed by the boneheads trampling him. The crowd is at faulth and I pray they can identify some faces from the video and prosecute them. The families should file a HUGE lawsuit against Wal-Mart. They don't want to close due to the money they'd lose? Let them lose as much or MORE in a lawsuit as a result of this tragedy.
OK, off my soapbox.
The other night I went to buy fatayer (savory pies) for my twins to take to school for their party. It took an hour to get there. It's only a few km down the street but traffic is horrible. I ended up going off on a couple of idiots trying to have a fight by my car. The guy's car was blocking my car and I started yelling at them to move. I pounded on the hood until the driver noticed me and told him to knock it off cause I wanted to go home. After they recovered from the shock of this American woman yelling at them, they moved along. LOL You can read about it HERE. It should be the 2nd post, unless I post again today.
We leave tomorrow for the States. We have slow dial-up at the farm so I don't know how much I'll be online. Have a wonderful Christmas, ladies, if I don't have the chance to say so later.
That was well said in the bold part.
Hopefully we hear from you again before Christmas 
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/4/2008 6:18:14 AM
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RamiRedeemed
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im pretty sure everyone in america knows when black friday is. you dont need television or newspapers to figure it out.
if you're scared of a wee little mob, a little violence and someone stealing out of your shopping basket then just don't go.
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RE: Kicka - #4 - 12/4/2008 10:48:24 AM
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lexie
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From: Toronto
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quote:
Perhaps our harsh climate makes a difference. I was reading today that of cities with a population of 500,000 or more, we are the coldest in the world.
I don't care if they were selling laptops for $5 I would not wait for hours in your cold!!! (LOL...that's so Torontonian of me!)
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