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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 7:58:14 PM
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relady
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quote:
What's helpful is that there is such a great rental market here. People are almost waiting in line, and I don't expect that to go away. In fact, I would expect that market to get better for the next few years. Mortgage loans are much harder to come by and I think we are going to see an increase in people continuing to rent.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 8:09:32 PM
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deliveredarling
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Honestly, as a homeowner and former renter, it is better to rent than to own. The taxes continue to raise every year, the perks of home ownership have all but been lost. The taxes are based on the "value" of your home. Well, I know for a fact that in this economy my home did not increase it's value by $20,000. That's just ridiculous. The appeal did not help. But by darned my county sure is raking in the dough with these over inflated home values! It's a racket.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 11:11:15 PM
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knight0308
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WOW TRACY DOLLS!
Really hit the nail on the head on that one...........Not really. That is a good idea and all giving all are money to the less fortunate country's....especially since we have enough of are own problems. All the money in the world wont save that country, we pump 300 billion dollars a yr into foreign aid ( i think maybe more) just to keep them from starving. And for are sake you better hope that capitalism doesn't fall. Capitalism was the natural progression of the values and standards set by are founding fathers, who wrote the U.S Constitution which was written hand in hand with ......drum roll please.......the bible...you know that book you nice people keep quoting from (and yes i read it) the bible does nothing but promote equal and natural rights amongst man. Natural rights think about what that means...cause it swings in a lot of directions you can use it to support all types of political arguments but lets stick to the topic at hand....I don't care if you are Dem, Rep, Libertarian, or a crazy liberal....you are what you are cause the U.S allows it ...with its freedoms and its CAPITALISM this plan will work (well i hope it will) . I am not the smartest person in the world but I think the guys in the beginning pretty much nailed it on the head. No need to worry.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 11:33:17 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
What I'd like to see in this proposal is some specific verbiage about the debt being paid down and/or the taxpayers being paid back. Where is that? It AIN'T there, friends. If those bad debts actually turn around and make money, do you think the fat cats in Washington are actually going to pay down the debt or pay us back? I've got some land in Florida if you believe that.
A prior poster's idea of putting this in a "fund" format with the US taxpayer as equity holder actually has a lot of merit & could address this. You would at least have some transparency in knowing where the money went & some hope of actually seeing at least a portion of it returned.
I'm hearing that Paulson is not receptive to the equity fund idea. This bugs me a lot, and I do realize that Wall Street needs help from the taxpayers so that we don't all go down with the ship as it were.
Paulson doesn't like it. Senator Ken Salazar is picking up on the idea though. Not sure he has the swing in the Senate to gather much enthusiasm on it. Who knows? Paulson overstepped a bit with the lack of oversight in his proposal. Congress will choke on that, so there's a chance they may shove the fund idea down his throat. Not likely, but one can hope.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:19:56 AM
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AdrianaS
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quote:
In 2007, Americans were still living with the illusions of the "American Dream" and a Republican Administration that preached the virtues of capitalism - free of government restraint.
What is interesting that the vast majority of nations that ranked above America even in 2007 were all considered "SOCIALIST" - by US standards.
Welcome to CW 47.samuel
Interesting, corruption index and the nations.
Another phenomena is the bold part also, I still learning and trying to make sense of US perceptions regarding that and other stuff.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 9:45:06 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Don't worry, Tracy. :) First off, that stuff happened in the third, fourth, and fifth centuries. The seals were a judgement on the Western Roman Empire. Have doubts? Take a look at the sixth seal and think "Pompeii/Vesuvius." Yup, John is the only person in human history who correctly predicted a volcanic eruption years in advance.
Second off, there have been much more severe market dislocations in US history. I wasn't around then, but can anyone affirmatively say that this has gotten worse than the Penn Central default ?
Blessed,
Hey how ya doing?
My opinion only.
All Scripture is revelant today , yesterday and tommorrow.
These verses are for end times, we know it did not end then. Yes, I love watching the discovery channel, I seen pics of Pompeii and the bodies buried there.
WE are living in Western Roman Civilization.
The Roman Empire=the Holy Roman Church=The Church of England=People that moved to America=You and Me.
Yes, me! My father who is a very dark man tested paternally using his DNA as a European from England.
But I learned alot about England just studying my famous family who were royalty, yada, yada, there.
They banned Jews for 300 years, Martin Luther, and became America.
quote:
WOW TRACY DOLLS!
Really hit the nail on the head on that one...........Not really. That is a good idea and all giving all are money to the less fortunate country's....especially since we have enough of are own problems. All the money in the world wont save that country, we pump 300 billion dollars a yr into foreign aid ( i think maybe more) just to keep them from starving. And for are sake you better hope that capitalism doesn't fall. Capitalism was the natural progression of the values and standards set by are founding fathers, who wrote the U.S Constitution which was written hand in hand with ......drum roll please.......the bible...you know that book you nice people keep quoting from (and yes i read it) the bible does nothing but promote equal and natural rights amongst man. Natural rights think about what that means...cause it swings in a lot of directions you can use it to support all types of political arguments but lets stick to the topic at hand....I don't care if you are Dem, Rep, Libertarian, or a crazy liberal....you are what you are cause the U.S allows it ...with its freedoms and its CAPITALISM this plan will work (well i hope it will) . I am not the smartest person in the world but I think the guys in the beginning pretty much nailed it on the head. No need to worry.
WE DO NOT give 300 billion to Africa.
WE give about 0.7 of the GDP. When we meet our obligations!
I'd rather spend the 700 Billion on AFrica for 55 countries and billions of people, than for a few already rich people.
No amount of money is gonna help this country!
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 10:09:40 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
No amount of money is gonna help this country!
Do you REALLY think it's this bad? (Personally, I think in a market driven society this is all pretty normal. It tends to happen once every 20-30 years or so. It's happened 3 times this century and more often than that in the prior century.)
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 10:33:16 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
You can ask what ever your heart desires. I always have an answer. It's not always a good answer, but it's an answer.
First off, it depends how you define "hurt". Are they now destitute like a lot of other folks? Heck no.
Have they seen a material decline in their wealth? Absolutely. At one point, the CEO of Washington Mutual had some $50 million in stock back when the stock was in the mid-40's. He's watched the value of those holdings evaporate. More than that, he lost a million dollar a year job that he could have held onto for another 10 years. It's likely he'll never work again (IMO, not altogether a bad thing having worked there once.)
Many of the folks that I knew at one investment bank had much of their bonus dollars tied up in Bear Stearns stock. Not by choice mind you - it was how their bonuses were paid, at least in part. They watched that money go poof. It amounted to several million dollars for some of the guys.
The trading desk at one large firm now has only 20% of the seats occupied. The other 80% of the highly paid traders have lost jobs.
Last year, I was probably in the top 3-4% of all wage earners. This year, I'm unemployed with minimal prospects to get a job that pays even half of what I used to earn.
A number of smaller mortgage firms were closely held by a few people. Many of those have gone bankrupt.
Those are a couple of examples of how some of the rich folks have already been nailed in the current crisis. Noone has received a "get out of jail free" card.
GW,
First I been praying for ya since I read this yestereday.
I agree, it is hurt.
I lost my job in 2003. Made to 'early retire" The cuts we're so bad in the Minneapolis School District, we we're featured in Time Magazine that year.
Thank you Jesus, I turned in my 401k's then to live. To live. I gave up looking for jobs.
I lived without a income, no money but the money from 401ks, 4 daughters and 1 grandson for awhile! Their dad split.
I moved to Mankato, MN. to get away.
I remeber 2004 WELL!
It was cold that winter, my car stopped running, which was really hard because I would often drive to MPLS and eat at families, it was Christmas, I was having surgery Jan 7 again on my broken leg.
I thought I was gonna lose it.
That's when I turned back to the Lord.
While there, He showed me my sins of looking down on people. Thinking the bank account automatically qualifies me to be bettter.
Compared to your salary, it was not much. But to a girl who grew up in the projects....whew.
I was queen of the ghetto in my mind. I live up close with dope dealers, gang bangers, druggies, hookers, whatever you name it, I just knew I was better than them...
I worked for a living. LOL. Why don't them #$$#@^ just get off their rearends and work, shoot, I do!
Been there, done that. Pride
Treasuring my treasures, admiring the rich, all of it. Plenty of material things!
Do I still struggle with pride, yes.
But I have a new heart for my fellow man
There but the GRACE of GOD goes I.
Looking back at that time, we never starved, I did'nt always eat the New York Strips and Lobster I loved, but we did'nt starve.
Trust in the Lord.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 10:48:13 AM
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GroupW
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Yup. Nothing like a dose of unemployment to keep one humble. A good job can be gone in an instant. Certainly no reason for taking pride. Your story sounds truly awful compared to mine. Way to hang in there and survive!
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 11:30:38 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Yup. Nothing like a dose of unemployment to keep one humble. A good job can be gone in an instant. Certainly no reason for taking pride. Your story sounds truly awful compared to mine. Way to hang in there and survive!
Sorry did that come out wrong?
What I was saying is we gotta trust in the Lord.
You asked do I REALLY think it is that bad, yes. I do.
I think this economy is stuck together with some dried up bublegum.
And believe me, if it totally fails, I'm in trouble like everyone else.
You want my advice.
Downsize the "junk" and buy some water and canned goods, firewood, etc.
It's about to be ugly.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 1:29:18 PM
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AdrianaS
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GW I do have a question.
As I was reading Brazilian news it mentioned that IMF John Lipsky said that U$ 1,3 Trillion is the cost for the financial system losses globally but as trying to find the link where he said that in English I ended up finding another link and Ken Ohmae former head of Mc Kinsey's Tokio saying that is U$ 5 Trillion needed to stop the banking crises and that the U$ 700billions will not do much at all...
Do you know anything about this numbers? Are they for real of just some guy analyses of what is going on?
Ken Ohmae $ 5 Trillions
And look at the other stuff about "Asia Needs Deal To Prevent Panic Selling US Debt"...have no time to read that now..
Is this "Naked Capitalism" site good reliable or not? I have no idea etc.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 1:31:27 PM
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GroupW
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I don't know about the Naked Capitalism site, but I do have pretty good resources for the other numbers. There's a news service that I get that has the numbers, but I can't link out to it (it's Bloomberg - not the website, but the private service). Give me a bit and I can give you the numbers.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 1:51:30 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
These verses are for end times, we know it did not end then. Yes, I love watching the discovery channel, I seen pics of Pompeii and the bodies buried there.
WE are living in Western Roman Civilization.
The Roman Empire=the Holy Roman Church=The Church of England=People that moved to America=You and Me.
Yes, me! My father who is a very dark man tested paternally using his DNA as a European from England.
But I learned alot about England just studying my famous family who were royalty, yada, yada, there.
They banned Jews for 300 years, Martin Luther, and became America.
Oh good lord.
There's so much historically and philosophically and organizationally wrong with those assertions that one doesn't even know where to start.
The people who founded the US (Puritans) were running from persecution by the Church of England (Anglicans). The Church of England (Anglicans) split off from the Holy Roman (Catholic) Church, leading to several centuries of one side killing the other depending on which side the monarch was on at the time (and that changed almost every time someone new took the throne). Furthermore, immigrants to the US were not necessarily English anyway (many Germans, French, and Scots/Irish immigrated early on as well).
To equate those should give anyone who has the slightest knowledge of history a migraine.
But, that's not what this thread is about. So, let's talk about the bailout.
All commentary on whose greed started the mess aside, do you understand the fact that at this point, the government is apparently trying to keep the average people (you and me) from falling into the same poverty you want to pull other people out of, due to massive economic collapse?
The rich do not tend to suffer, at least from the standpoint of "how are we going to feed our children", in an economic collapse. Sure, their portfolios go "ouch", but they're still able to put food on the table, not to mention a new car in the garage. It's the people who were already struggling to make ends meet, working their jobs to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, who truly suffer during economic troubles.
So, is the bailout going to be able to stop economic collapse to the extent that the average working American is not going to have to choose between heating their homes and having something to eat this winter? Is there a better idea than their current attempts to stabilize the current mortgages, keep up house prices, and make loans available to the average person who wants to buy a house (after all, the truly rich do not need to take out mortgages, so why would they care)?
That's the important question.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 2:01:24 PM
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GroupW
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OK, I'm back. Here's what we know right now. Keep in mind that a lot of the Wall Street firms will announce their quarterly results in the next few weeks so these numbers are going to grow a bit.
Globally, the mortgage crises has resulted in banks and other financial companies incurring about $521 billion in losses. Of that $521 billion, $381 billion are actual credit losses from bad loans. The remaining amount of $140 billion are mark-to-market paper losses which may or may not eventually show up as real hard dollar losses.
Of the total $521 billion, $379 billion in fresh capital has been raised to replenish banks' balance sheets, leaving a deficit of about $142 billion. That $142 billion represents somewhere between $1.4 trillion and $2.4 trillion in fresh lending that banks can not afford to do. This is why we have a liquidity crisis currently. That's a lot of loans that people can no longer get.
I respect the McKinsey consulting group tremendously, but the $5 trillion estimate seems a bit exaggerated. Even if we're only halfway through this crisis, you would expect losses to be somewhere in the $1.04 trillion range. Banks have already replaced $379 billion of that capital, leaving a gap of about $661 billion. In that light, the government's $700 billion doesn't seem so measley.
BT
FYI - on the Naked Capitalism site. It's horrible. I picked up 2 critical errors they make within the first 2 minutes of reading. I would disregard it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 4:33:59 PM
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Austin_Avery
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GroupW:
(I assume this name comes from Alice's Restaurant, is that correct?)
Why does taking bad debt out of the hands of banks help the economy. I understand (vaguely) that banks must keep a keep a certain amount of cash on hand, an amount that is far less than the amount they would need if all depositors showed up at once. What is that percentage? Can the Fed lower the percentage in a time of "crisis" like this, and would that help free up cash for lending?
(Hope these questions are not too obtuse. I found this thread looking for explanation of the bailout. Interesting that the best explanation I've found is in a religious forum.)
--AA
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 5:42:38 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Austin_Avery
GroupW:
(I assume this name comes from Alice's Restaurant, is that correct?)
Why does taking bad debt out of the hands of banks help the economy. I understand (vaguely) that banks must keep a keep a certain amount of cash on hand, an amount that is far less than the amount they would need if all depositors showed up at once. What is that percentage? Can the Fed lower the percentage in a time of "crisis" like this, and would that help free up cash for lending?
(Hope these questions are not too obtuse. I found this thread looking for explanation of the bailout. Interesting that the best explanation I've found is in a religious forum.)
--AA
Your knowledge of hippie music is excellent!
The question about reserve ratios (the amount of cash that banks have to have on hand compared to their deposits) isn't a big consideration here. Currently I believe the number is 10% of transaction accounts.
Nearly all banks can meet this requirement with their eyes closed, and any bank that can't is probably about to fail. Most banks have other debt that dwarfs the size of their respective transaction account. Relaxing this requirement would probably ease the crisis to a minor degree but not much. The problems are much bigger than the net size of the fractional reserve system. In times of crisis, usually mild recession, the Fed's have reduced this requirement but it's probably as low as it rightly should be at the moment.
The issue of taking bad debt off of banks' balance sheets is one of "right-sizing" the banks' balance sheets so the amount of equity they have is in a proper proportion to the size of their assets & degree of risk they are taking. Currently, banks have taken such huge losses that they no longer have the capital to support the assets they do have, much less engage in any new lending activities. If left unchecked, this will eventually create a significant problem for us.
By taking some of that debt off of bank's balance sheets, we can put banks on much more solid footing so that they not only have enough equity to support the assets they currently own, but also engage in fresh lending so the economy can grow.
In the end, it's not so much about how much cash they have on hand (which is important) but also about how much they own that can be converted to cash to pay any losses that they will incur on the loans they own and pay off the debt that supports those assts. Right now the issue is the level of those liabilities compared to the value of the assets. The asset values have fallen to the point where many banks may not have the financial resources to pay off all the debt. That's why the big worry is right now is equity and not necessarily cash.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 5:56:43 PM
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chrisovery
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ron paul has something great to state about this. you can hear it at youtube.
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It is utterly impossible to govern a nation with out the Lord Jesus Christ and the bible.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:00:08 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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I'm afraid to look. Please someone else take a peek and let me know.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:02:22 PM
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Zhi
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There's no link, and typing "Ron Paul" into YouTube results in over 161,000 videos. Ron Paul Bailout results in 413.
I'm not going to watch them all. *shrug*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:04:39 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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And I was relying on you to take care of that for me. Make you a deal. I'll look at 206 and you look at the other 207.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:10:01 PM
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Austin_Avery
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GroupW,
Then this may be another dumb question. Banks get money from depositors, loan that money out, and profit by charging interest and fees to borrows. So I understand that they are in debt to their depositors.
What other debt do they carry? Do they in turn borrow from other banks? From the Fed? From foreign banks?
--AA
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:16:04 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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so far it appears they are going to pass the 700 billion dollar bailout, seems they are rushing to put it thru, waht ever happened to peopel taking time to see if its a good deal or not?
didn't they have people to watch the economy as it slowly got worse? Greed and sin sure has caught up with us - the chickens are coming home to roost. if only people would have obeyed God's laws about sin, this might not have happened.
it also might be God's judgement on America for its greed and forgetting about God, when we forget God our houses will crumble.
But i want to know - and i dont see anyone addressing this - how exactly is this going to affect the average middle class taxpayer? will our taxes go up? they guesstimate that this will cost the taxpayer something like $4,600 dollars.. but will that money come out of our paychecks or will it come from a stash of money in some budget somewhere?
and dont the taxpayers and citizens of America have something to say about it? the people in charge sure dont seem to be making the people who got us in this mess hav to make amends. there should be restitution. i dont see them making the rich peopel who got us into this mess have any accountability.
or am i missing something? wow i wish they would bail me out, i only want a little bit,, it would help. Where can i get some of that bail money? I'd even share it with some of you.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:22:01 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Austin_Avery
GroupW,
Then this may be another dumb question. Banks get money from depositors, loan that money out, and profit by charging interest and fees to borrows. So I understand that they are in debt to their depositors.
What other debt do they carry? Do they in turn borrow from other banks? From the Fed? From foreign banks?
--AA
No dumb questions here. Americans are suddenly being inundated with arcane banking regulations & technical issues. There's no reason to expect people to be familiar with some of this stuff.
As one example, banks and savings institutions along with some insurance companies are allowed to borrow up to 45% of their assets from the Federal Home Loan Bank system. That's another government sponsored entity like Ginnie Mae that was created to facilitate making mortgage loans. The FHLB's do this by lending money to banks that lend money out as mortgages.
If you take a bank that has 10% capital and let it borrow up to 45% of its assets as loans from the FHLB, it's possible to have a bank that has non-depository liabilities that are equal to it's deposit base. Here's how:
Assets = Liabilities + Capital; if capital is 10% of assets, let's rephrase that in percentage terms
Assets (100%) = Liabilities (90%) plus capital (10%)
If 45% of the assets are in FHLB loans, then you have:
Assets (100%) = Deposits (45%) plus FHLB advances (45%) plus capital (10%)
Take into account that there are other ways banks raise debt - corporate borrowings (bonds, commercial paper, etc) for example. You mentioned one of the biggest one's in your question above - borrowings from other banks. There's a huge inter-bank lending market where banks lend money to each other on a short term basis. It's called Federal Funds and it's a primary mechanism for raising short term cash.
Also, in talking about reserve requirements, it's good to remember that only a small fraction of a bank's deposits are in transaction accounts. For some banks it can be less than 20% or so. It's possible to envision a bank that has a required reserve equal to only 0.9% or so of it's total liabilities (10% reserve on 20% of it's deposits which in turn are only 45% of it's assets.)
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:26:16 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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IMA_Christian-
Noone really knows what the impact will be on tax rates yet. It depends on how much of a loss, if any, the government takes on some of the assets it buys. It's not a foregone conclusion that there will be any loss at all! It's possible the government actually makes money on this and that could help offset any need for future tax increases to cover the debt we've had to incur to finance other spending priorities.
I don't expect the government to make money, but it could happen. I certainly don't expect the cost to reach $700 billion dollars. They're buying assets that in most cases have SOME value. What exactly that is noone knows yet and won't know for some time to come.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/25/2008 6:27:17 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Where can i get some of that bail money? I'd even share it with some of you.
It's a deal.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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