Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (Full Version)

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TMeeks -> Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 11:07:09 AM)

Have they NO SHAME????

In my opionion, to use emergencies to further the causes of special interest groups with earmarks is corruption in the extreme.

I'll let the article explain exactly what is happening. But, I don't care WHO the earmarks are for or by in emergency legistlation like this.... it is just plain CORRUPT to misuse the process so aggregiously!

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=210216




csl7037 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 11:48:11 AM)

I called my Republican Congressman's office this morning and left a message thanking him for at least pulling back to think this through and see if there is another way to deal with it instead of just taking with the President and the "leadership" in Congress are trying to force down our throats as fast as they can. I recognize the urgency but can't help but think they're fools for rushing in.




ta_mosquito -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 11:53:55 AM)

Moving from Election 2008 to Current Events.


Thanks!

Tricia
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cog41 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:00:50 PM)

Corrupt indeed.
Fools Indeed.

No bailout!




StephK -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:02:42 PM)

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I read one article that $140 BILLION was earmarked for ACORN. Now why would even $1 go to anything other than this crisis? [:@]

NO BAILOUT, let the chips fall where they may.




tinydancer2 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:16:35 PM)

Oh..I lost my response that went lost while I was posting in the other thread![:D]

Well, this situation is really crazy as the FBI is already investigating the Wall St 4 Firms...and at same time some that are being investigating and have something to do with sub-prime mess, already found their ways to get inside the bailout and receive share of $$$ ???

As I did not have much kwonlegde of ACORN meaning went to find out and came out with:

"ACORN Housing Corporation (AHC) was instrumental in its passage of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) which has plagued the mortgage markets since 1977. The U.S. Congress through the CRA compelled banks and lending institutions to make loans to “communities of color” disregarding sound economic and risk guidelines. CRA encouraged the relaxing of “outdated” risk-management protocols and underwriting obligations by lending institutions. In the name of ending discrimination, no longer were “communities of color” required to provide verification of income, employment, credit history, ability to pay homeowner bills, or down payment. In response, many banks and mortgage groups bundled trillions of dollars of “subprime” loans and sold them to investors here and abroad. It is these bundled Community Reinvestment Act mortgages, doomed to fail, that are today causing financial strain in U.S. and global financial markets." by James H. Walsh former Federal Prosecuter


Well, if things reggarding Accord and the lack of requirements is true than no wonder the mess we are in today..it is insane for sure. Anyone than can own a home even without money, employment, etc etc and illegal status. What system is that anyways? Of course it needs a huge reform!

[sm=icon_smile_faint.gif]




mapachito13 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:22:22 PM)

Looks like both sides of the aisle wants their side of bacon! [sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif]

"McCain says he still plans to extend Bush's tax cuts for high-income Americans, even though the proposed bailout would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the federal deficit. He also favors increased federal spending for nuclear power and control of greenhouse gases. " LINK

[:o] Has McCain embraced the "inconvenient truth"? Maverick indeed! [:D]

Gee and he's also for amnesty in immigration. Who's the purported "liberal" again? [8|]

Maverick? More like a man without a plan.




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdrianaS



"ACORN Housing Corporation (AHC) was instrumental in its passage of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) which has plagued the mortgage markets since 1977. The U.S. Congress through the CRA compelled banks and lending institutions to make loans to “communities of color” disregarding sound economic and risk guidelines. CRA encouraged the relaxing of “outdated” risk-management protocols and underwriting obligations by lending institutions. In the name of ending discrimination, no longer were “communities of color” required to provide verification of income, employment, credit history, ability to pay homeowner bills, or down payment. In response, many banks and mortgage groups bundled trillions of dollars of “subprime” loans and sold them to investors here and abroad. It is these bundled Community Reinvestment Act mortgages, doomed to fail, that are today causing financial strain in U.S. and global financial markets." by James H. Walsh former Federal Prosecuter



Just FYI - the CRA comment isn't really all that accurate. Here's what I've posted elsewhere on the topic
-------------
Blaming CRA for the current crisis is a bit simplistic. There are way too many causes to point a finger at any one. CRA disputably may played a part, but if so a very minor role.

First, the issue with CRA isn’t it’s establishment but rather its implementation by the banks it regulated. Here’s what I mean.

The basic goal of CRA is that you can’t take deposits in one community and invest them in another. That’s called “redlining” and it resulted in a severe capital shortage in many low income neighborhoods that were deemed to be undesirable risks. Interestingly, the only bank that supported CRA back in 1977 was ShoreBank. ShoreBank was an inner city bank on the south side of Chicago that actually did very well lending to small businesses in the inner city. ShoreBank was smart enough to know that CRA wasn’t necessarily bad legislation if you knew the basics of small business lending. In the neighborhoods ShoreBank was active, significant inner city redevelopment occurred with a corresponding rise in small business activity, employment, and income. ShoreBank saw CRA as a leveling of the playing field rather than government intrusion and supported the legislation knowing that the inner city was being unnecessarily starved for development capital.

Back in 1987, I went to work for a small bank in Indiana. That bank neatly dodged CRA by declaring it’s service area to be Porter County – an above average income county with minimal minority presence. That bank steadfastly refused to expand eastward since that would have brought Gary, Indiana into its service area. By contrast, the old Gary National Bank (aka “Gainer Bank”) did quite well in that area and eventually became the largest local bank in that county by a factor of 5 by purchasing several local Porter County Banks.

Again, it’s not CRA that’s the problem but finding ways to implement CRA profitably. It can be done, and has been done.

As recently as this past week, BB&T (east coast regional bank) was cited by analysts as an excellent institution for its avoidance of subprime loans. In reality, BB&T has historically done a significant amount of subprime lending. BB&T’s strategy however was different. They held all their loans on their own books and didn’t sell them. They used prudent underwriting and made sure people could document their incomes and could afford the loans. As a result, BB&T has largely avoided the entire mess while simultaneously getting an excellent CRA score. Clearly CRA considerations are not damaging BB&T’s performance.

BB&T is not alone. Wells Fargo has historically been one of the better subprime originators, again using reasonable underwriting criteria. Wells was also one of the larger issuers of sub-prime asset-backed securities. Wells’ losses have been modest and contained. Furthermore, Wells’ securitizations have performed in line with their ratings (unlike most others which have been downgraded, in some cases all the way from AAA to CCC in a very short amount of time.) Like BB&T, Wells understood that you can’t, and indeed don’t have to, abandon prudent underwriting in pursuit of legislatively mandated social goals.

Second, one of the other goals of CRA was to exert some form of discipline when it came to getting value from the government guarantee on their deposits. Banks benefit from a very low cost of borrowing due to the FDIC guarantee on deposits. The general feeling was, and still is, that the government and society in fairness needs to gain a benefit from that privilege. In mandating that banks serve the lower income portions of society by creating low cost loan and savings products, CRA did not encourage bad underwriting. It was explicitly endorsing what we all know – that banks serve a dual purpose. They are first and foremost businesses intended to make profits and create jobs.

Secondarily, though, they are allocatiors of investment capital and able to fundamentally influence via that power who has an economic shot at prosperity and who does not. In this role, banks have an ethical consideration unlike any other business. We are the arbiters of economic justice like no other. Some regulation to enforce the judicious use of this power is both reasonable and advisable.

Third, as the Wikipedia article rightly points out, nearly half of all subprime originations were done by entities not regulated by CRA.

This mess would have happened with or without legislative mandates.

Fourth, since the inception of CRA, there has been a steady influx of capital into the inner cities. It’s entirely possible that CRA is a significant factor in the ongoing gentrification of a number of blighted urban neighborhoods. It has not been a perfect piece of legislation, but it has had some excellent results.




tinydancer2 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:54:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

Looks like both sides of the aisle wants their side of bacon! [sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif][sm=pig.gif]

"McCain says he still plans to extend Bush's tax cuts for high-income Americans, even though the proposed bailout would add hundreds of billions of dollars to the federal deficit. He also favors increased federal spending for nuclear power and control of greenhouse gases. " LINK

[:o] Has McCain embraced the "inconvenient truth"? Maverick indeed! [:D]

Gee and he's also for amnesty in immigration. Who's the purported "liberal" again? [8|]

Maverick? More like a man without a plan.



I do think Mapachito13,

That to many is all about the party...because Mr. McCain is moderate and even named RINO by other Republicans and some that did not agree with his standings will vote for him anyways because he does represent Republican party.

To me they are all politicians who will carry their many agendas and their own parties anyways, one way or another they do compromise big time and as human as much goodwill they have in serving their country etc will not please everybody and etc there are so many agendas going on and many times very conflicting! I do think that when people get to see power and all that goes on at political systems playing out and many times at close doors etc many things can happen to ones conscience..some people are fit to serve as Presidents and do have leadership styles that goes well with that chair naturaly, others may surprises us in good or bad ways. I trully wish not get "surprised" in bad ways anymore by some individuals leadership styles.




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:57:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StephK

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I read one article that $140 BILLION was earmarked for ACORN. Now why would even $1 go to anything other than this crisis? [:@]

NO BAILOUT, let the chips fall where they may.


Looking for the article - can't find it. Can you help me?

Edit: Note that ACORN is actually a non-profit company and not all that big. Any earmark for ACORN is likely not for ACORN directly. Most likely for low income housing subsidies generally, which goes toward a variety of programs in which ACORN and a host of other housing related non-profit companies participate in. As such, it's not really related the proposed bail out per se.




Leslie_JnJs_mom -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 12:58:49 PM)

Yes lets the economy go to the toilet, and I mean that seriously. Houses are outrageous in their prices, CEO's were so greedy they let their companies fail while they walked away with millions. If this countries economy falls apart and takes half the world with it so be it.




GregandJenny -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:02:46 PM)

quote:

. Houses are outrageous in their prices,


No truer statement has been made!

G




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:03:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom

Yes lets the economy go to the toilet, and I mean that seriously. Houses are outrageous in their prices, CEO's were so greedy they let their companies fail while they walked away with millions. If this countries economy falls apart and takes half the world with it so be it.


That's really very easy to say, but do you realize that your job would be placed at risk if they did that? Many innocent families could be harmed with a complete hands off approach to this crisis. Your 401k would lose substantial value, your home price would decline even further, and you may find yourself in the unemployment line.

The poor will suffer far more in this than the rich will. We'll all suffer - the guilty and the innocent alike.




GregandJenny -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:07:21 PM)

quote:

your home price would decline even further


I have a question for you Brian. Were these houses really ever worth what they were paid for?




tinydancer2 -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:17:02 PM)

quote:

Just FYI - the CRA comment isn't really all that accurate. Here's what I've posted elsewhere on the topic


Thanks GW!

When I start to read the OP link I went tracking by the title and find out the Prosecuter saying about ACORD, because He is a Federal Prosecuter I did borrow his standings and etc but it seems he is at youtube also and even find out a bit ago that he has some books or writting reggarding immigrants bringing all sorts of sickness and deseases to this country...he may be a person who blames all the problems in US to immigrants and particularly "Mexicans" and may have very strong standings and ways of nationalist extremists "hate" of some sorts and there are prejudices in this country reggarding minorities, Democratic party have huge vote between blacks and Hispanics and OP link mentions ACORD & La Raza etc..don't know I will find out more when have time and read what you wrote.

I sure wish to find out the truth and do hope authorities do investigate all layers involved in the crises and criminal actions by individuals of all race, color, status, party afiliations and etc be taken to justice etc.

Thanks again for bringing clarity, I am learning.[:)]




joy2give2u -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:46:00 PM)

I have some question........

I am not well informed, not being a big tv watcher, of everything going on with the mortgage bailout bill with most of my information coming from liberal co-workers.

I did watch President Bush's speech so understand a little more what at least is happening and why we are in trouble.

What I don't understand is three fold.......

1. If we are in this problem because too many banks gave mortgages people could not afford, sold those mortgages and since they are not being paid are running out of money.....Even though I have heard the money used by the government would be paid back when the housing market goes up and houses become more valuable......isn't that what the banks thought as well? I mean they did not give the loans just to give them right?........they thought they would make a big profit right? how do we know that the notes the federal government will hold will not decrease in value as well?

2. How is being a society based on credit ever good? It seemed in the President's speech it was implied credit based economics was a positive thing........the bible tells us this is not true.

3. One of the things I heard last night was one of the reasons a bill has not been signed is because some on the republican side do not want the federal government to use our money to bail out the companies but think we should allow the private sector to do so.........The opposition claims something has to be done now and depending on the private section is not wise.

Yet we wake up to the headlines that a powerhouse bank has gone under (nice headlines to panic people and make things worse)and has been bought out by another private sector bank.........Now doesn't that show that the private sector is an option?

Granted the private sector is not going to bail out as quickly as the federal government because those banks still able to do so apparently make wise financial decisions and will mostly likely wait till they can buy at the lowest possible price.........but does that really hurt us? Or does it just hurt he bank which was bought out? From what I have read those individuals who have accounts at the bank still have all their money, can use their atm's and are not being adversely effected by the bank being bought out.

Thoughts?




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:54:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

your home price would decline even further


I have a question for you Brian. Were these houses really ever worth what they were paid for?


LOL - apparently not! Seriously though, it's tough to say, but current evidence would say that home prices got over-inflated, so no they were probably not what worth what people were paying. Chances are prices in 2004 were somewhere in the ballpark, but prices in 05-07 got too heated.

It's also a market by market sort of thing. Here in Denver, we never got the post internet bubble boom in home prices, so we never got the the bust.

Las Vegas, SoCal, Miami, etc on the other hand had a ton of second home / rental speculation and are getting hammered.




stamper_ben -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 1:58:06 PM)

quote:

1. If we are in this problem because too many banks gave mortgages people could not afford, sold those mortgages and since they are not being paid are running out of money.....Even though I have heard the money used by the government would be paid back when the housing market goes up and houses become more valuable......isn't that what the banks thought as well? I mean they did not give the loans just to give them right?........they thought they would make a big profit right? how do we know that the notes the federal government will hold will not decrease in value as well?
To borrow a phrase from the stock market, it is long past time for housing prices to undergo a "correction". It was greed that drove them up. Greed on the part of buyers, speculators, and bankers.

Want affordable housing? Let it correct itself and then when the prices drop to where they should be it won't be difficult to qualify for a loan. If the government buys these loans they will lose. Which means we and our children will lose.




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 2:06:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
1. If we are in this problem because too many banks gave mortgages people could not afford, sold those mortgages and since they are not being paid are running out of money.....Even though I have heard the money used by the government would be paid back when the housing market goes up and houses become more valuable......isn't that what the banks thought as well? I mean they did not give the loans just to give them right?........they thought they would make a big profit right? how do we know that the notes the federal government will hold will not decrease in value as well?

2. How is being a society based on credit ever good? It seemed in the President's speech it was implied credit based economics was a positive thing........the bible tells us this is not true.

3. One of the things I heard last night was one of the reasons a bill has not been signed is because some on the republican side do not want the federal government to use our money to bail out the companies but think we should allow the private sector to do so.........The opposition claims something has to be done now and depending on the private section is not wise.

Yet we wake up to the headlines that a powerhouse bank has gone under (nice headlines to panic people and make things worse)and has been bought out by another private sector bank.........Now doesn't that show that the private sector is an option?

Granted the private sector is not going to bail out as quickly as the federal government because those banks still able to do so apparently make wise financial decisions and will mostly likely wait till they can buy at the lowest possible price.........but does that really hurt us? Or does it just hurt he bank which was bought out? From what I have read those individuals who have accounts at the bank still have all their money, can use their atm's and are not being adversely effected by the bank being bought out.

Thoughts?


I love it when people ask good questions!
1) How do you know that the government won't lose money as well? Well, you don't really know for sure and can't. There's good reason to believe that they won't. First off, the American public was relying on home prices rising perpetually to bail them out of taking on too much debt. Clearly that doesn't always happen. The government, on the other hand, will be buying these assets a discount to their nominal value. There's an old saying in banking - there are no bad assets, just bad prices. I can buy a really ****py loan, but if I only pay 40 cents on the dollar for it, then I'll probably come out just fine. This is what the current plan is - buy loans at prices higher than the current distressed prices but still low enough to provide for a decent return to the tax payer. No guarantees to this of course, but nearly anything can be a good investment at SOME price.

2) Credit isn't always 100% bad. For example, businesses borrow money all the time to help get started. This creates jobs for many of the rest of us. Shut down all credit and a lot of us would be unemployed, new inventions would have a hard time getting to the market, and a lot of folks would suffer. Like anything else, it's just a tool and can be used or misused. Buying certain long-lived assets like houses using credit can be good - as long as you don't abuse the priviledge. I'm not sure the bible really teaches that a responsible use of credit is bad, but that's a good topic for another thread.

3) I'm one of those that think the private sector could eventually fix this. There's actually a ton of money that the private sector has already raised. It's just sitting there though. Noone wants to step in and buy assets this week when it will just be cheaper next week. The question is this - do banks and financial companies have the liquidity and the capital base in order to withstand the decline in the value of these assets in between now and then? The private equity firms may eventually step in, but in the meantime, the feeling is that banks will have taken such tremendous losses by then that the entire financial system would be at risk of freezing up. This could be very bad for the average American that actually managed his finances well and didn't deserve to be punished in the current crisis.




GregandJenny -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 2:07:02 PM)

quote:

Want affordable housing? Let it correct itself and then when the prices drop to where they should be it won't be difficult to qualify for a loan. If the government buys these loans they will lose. Which means we and our children will lose.


I agree




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 2:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

Want affordable housing? Let it correct itself and then when the prices drop to where they should be it won't be difficult to qualify for a loan. If the government buys these loans they will lose. Which means we and our children will lose.


I agree


In a normal market, that's the right answer. What do you do, however, when the market completely breaks down such that access to a mortgage becomes very difficult to obtain even at reasonable home prices? That's the scenario that regulators are concerned about, and it's getting increasingly likely. Home prices in that case would have to fall BELOW their fair value in order to be affordable. In the process, a whole lot of people in other industries could be put out of work by the fallout effects.




joy2give2u -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 2:12:50 PM)

quote:

I love it when people ask good questions!
I love it when people encourage me by letting me know my questions were good[:D][:D].........I do not usually post in these types of thread because I feel like I would look foolish with my lack of understanding and knowledge......thank you for the encouragement.......




GroupW -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 2:15:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

quote:

I love it when people ask good questions!
I love it when people encourage me by letting me know my questions were good[:D][:D].........I do not usually post in these types of thread because I feel like I would look foolish with my lack of understanding and knowledge......thank you for the encouragement.......


No worries. It's kind of unfair to expect the average person to be able to get his head around banking regulation and arcane financial issues in a day. There are bankers who do don't really get this stuff!




rcjames -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 3:27:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Have they NO SHAME????


Absolutely not, and anyone who tries this should be voted out the next time up.

Enough is enough.

Another reason to vote for McCain as he said he would publish the sponsers of all earmarks before vetoing any bill that contains them.

Thanks
RC




stamper_ben -> RE: Insanity of EARPMARKS in Mortgage Bailout Bill (9/26/2008 3:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

Want affordable housing? Let it correct itself and then when the prices drop to where they should be it won't be difficult to qualify for a loan. If the government buys these loans they will lose. Which means we and our children will lose.


I agree


In a normal market, that's the right answer. What do you do, however, when the market completely breaks down such that access to a mortgage becomes very difficult to obtain even at reasonable home prices? That's the scenario that regulators are concerned about, and it's getting increasingly likely. Home prices in that case would have to fall BELOW their fair value in order to be affordable. In the process, a whole lot of people in other industries could be put out of work by the fallout effects.

So, who sets the fair value? I do not trust anyone in government (regulators) to be able to do that. True fair value is WAY below what it is today. I think you can trust that the homebuilding industry is going to take a huge hit right away. And yes, others will follow in this downturn. But that is how it MUST be, as unfortunate as it is to say that. Fallout is like that. Blame lack of action in our leaders for it. Might just be enough to get rid of the current crop and start over with ones who actually have a passion for who they represent - The people and not the special interests!

As it is, based on the greed that was shown all around there is a huge overabundance of newly built homes out there now. I suppose the government could buy these up and relocate Gulf Coast hurricane victims there.[8|]




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