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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 5:43:07 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11449
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please do not turn this into another discussion about whether the USA is Babylon. Take that to the appropriate thread. It's off topic here.
Thank you!
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/7/2008 6:30:59 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, .nile.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .nile.
I believe that neither 'capitalism', nor 'socialism', nor any any other 'form' of commerce that exists or existed on earth has innately anything to do with the appearance of the false prophet; (per se) except that he forces commerce to be done in a certain manner. Therefore, one can participate in most forms of commerce, without worry, until the appearance of the false antichrist.
However, with the appearance of the trade of 'capitalistic' nature one can perceive the opportunities that exist to help the brethern spread the Gospel of God to other places on earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
(Rev 13:16-18)
I am just wondering if this has got anything to do with capitalism. It seems to me that it has taken over the world now and has all the real power. It could be one of the things that allows this man to get into power. who knows but its just a thought. Is capitalism a good thing.
Certainly money has its power.
Absolutely right!
Retrobyter
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/10/2008 10:07:28 PM
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Godhead
Posts: 364
Joined: 1/28/2006
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Whatever the Book of revelation says, and what it was talking about, we can still get very practical teachings from it, that can be applied to our relationship with God and how to live a Christian life. Now for the most part, America is not for God, but for America. Christians, are for Jesus and the Gospel, and for the kingdom of heaven. There is allot of corporate greed in America, and it has spilled out into the whole world. (BTW the first tower fell in one our) Whoever the Antichrist is and where he will come from, it is certain that he Will control the worlds economy and trade. You will have to follow the Antichrist to be allowed to trade. It could be the world power putting trade embargoes on any country unwilling to follow its religion or politics. Who knows. Lets be open minded, and not hold to any preconceived ideas. God is not an American. It would be naive to think that America cannot be against God. Jesus said that you cannot serve two masters. you will either love the one and hate the other. One thing that we can be sure of, America is the leading country today. where will the seat of power be when the Antichrist rules this world? It has to be somewhere.
The temporal must give way to the eternal. All things in this world must give way to decay. No matter how beautiful the human body can be, it must either grow old and wither like grass (Psalm 37:2) or in dying young, give way to the ugliness of decay (Psalm 49:14) The only thing that the Anti Christ can offer anyone is the good things of this world, and they can only last for a short time. (1 John 2:16-18) Even his reign on earth will be short. (Revelation 13:5) His army consist only of men (Revelation 19:19) The Lords army consist of Angels (Revelation 19:14) So We know who will win in the end and who we should follow then.
_____________________________
There is too much truth in that common proverb, “The nearer the church, the further from God;” it is pity it should be so. (Matthew Henry commentary)
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/13/2008 11:34:54 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
No, but it IS so implied! First of all, the Proverbs were written by a Jew to the Jews (as well as the rest of the Israelites). Second, the Bible DOES say that one should be frugal and careful with his or her money. Third, the Proverbs give us PLENTY of wisdom that pertains to the right handling of money. (Compare the Scriptures cited by Crown Financial Ministries, http://crown.org/)
The ideal trade scenario is a WIN/WIN scenario, in which both the seller and the buyer profit!
So, where do you think I blundered?
Retrobyter
What Proverb are you referring to? The Bible was written by Jews.
Why did He chose them, the smallest of the Tribes? Certainly not to run the money part.
Where are capitalists frugal with their money?
When they go to spas after recieving a 85 billion dollar bailout?
When they own 12 houses? When they fill up these said homes with worthless (junk)antiques, cars, etc.
Money is one aspect of our lives.
If a person has lots of money but does not help the poor, is he considered a good person.
If we go by that premise, then Oprah is realllllll good.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/15/2008 1:00:42 AM
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tony.nz
Posts: 226
Joined: 7/6/2005
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I think "capitalism" and "socialism" are simply extremes of economic theory, and that there is no country that could be purely described by either term. All countries have some degree of centralised economic planning, and some system of wealth transfer from the rich to the poor. Some countries may have pretended to live by pure socialism in the past, however their systems still produced the haves and have-nots. So, I do not think that capitalism can be the mark of the beast, because if so, we have all received it.
Personally, I do not see "Babylon" as being linked to political or geographic boundaries. It is however a system that manipulates the tensions between rival belief systems for it's own agenda.
< Message edited by tony.nz -- 10/15/2008 5:35:25 PM >
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/15/2008 10:58:46 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2017
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Good points Tony!
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/15/2008 1:18:24 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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After the meetings of G-7 and G-20
wouldn't Revelation strike a few chords? lol.
It is obvious, the manipulating factor is economics.
As Clinton's mantra said, "It's the economy stupid."
And the carnal people voted after him.
Just as they will follow after Obama.
And even the Repubs. follow after the mantra.
"It's the holiness of God, stupid." lol.
It will take a Rod of Iron to straighten everything out.
Where did I hear that? lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: And that no man might buy or sell... - 10/16/2008 11:05:38 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, tracydolls.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
No, but it IS so implied! First of all, the Proverbs were written by a Jew to the Jews (as well as the rest of the Israelites). Second, the Bible DOES say that one should be frugal and careful with his or her money. Third, the Proverbs give us PLENTY of wisdom that pertains to the right handling of money. (Compare the Scriptures cited by Crown Financial Ministries, http://crown.org/)
The ideal trade scenario is a WIN/WIN scenario, in which both the seller and the buyer profit!
So, where do you think I blundered?
Retrobyter
What Proverb are you referring to? The Bible was written by Jews.
True, but while the Bible was written by Jews, have you never read the specific proverbs about finances? For instance,
Prov 6:1-11
1 My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,
2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.
3 Do this now, my son, deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend.
4 Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids.
5 Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.
6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?
10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.
KJV
The points are (1) don't co-sign for your friend. If you do, if you shake hands on it, you're trapped by your own words! (2) Don't be lazy (a sluggard); work for your food and store it away for the future! (That's applicable for a savings account, too.) (3) If you are prone to sleeping in and sleeping a long time or just lying back and relaxing when you should be doing some work, then poverty will overtake you like a highwayman!
That's just one passage, but the Proverbs (AND other places in the Bible) are FULL of financial wisdom! For more, you might visit http://www.crown.org.
Why do you think that the stereotype of the Jew down through the ages has been one of a money maker? People have been very envious in Europe and Asia because of the way Jews seemed to get wealthier while everyone else got poorer. It was a common excuse for the pogroms and the purges.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Why did He chose them, the smallest of the Tribes? Certainly not to run the money part.
No, He chose them simply because He loved them first. They were the lineage of His Son's human body; they had the Oracles (the Prophecies) of God; and they were the ones who first believed in the One and Only God and the first who learned they could trust Him completely! It's because they LISTENED to Him and His wisdom that He spoke through the prophets that they often became the ones to run the money part!
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Where are capitalists frugal with their money?
When they go to spas after recieving a 85 billion dollar bailout?
When they own 12 houses? When they fill up these said homes with worthless (junk)antiques, cars, etc.
Capitalists ARE frugal with their money! Most capitalists are NOT the ones who "go to spas after bailouts" or who "own 12 houses"; they are the small business owners who employ most of working Americans and have to pinch pennies to meet payroll and federal taxes and state taxes and Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid and benefits for their employees and fuel costs for their vehicles and electricity and water/sewer and raw resources for the products they may make and .... Can't you see that TRUE capitalism is the ability and the drive to succeed and to make enough money to keep their business from failing? Capitalism involves the entrepreneur who comes up with a new idea for a product or service! Capitalism is earning enough money to care for and to provide for one's employees! The few examples you hear about are just that -- a FEW examples! They may give a black eye to the rest of free enterprise, but the majority is not like those few examples! It's honest people who are trying to make a living and provide the means for others in their neighborhoods to also make a living through them! Don't be so down on capitalism!
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Money is one aspect of our lives.
If a person has lots of money but does not help the poor, is he considered a good person.
If we go by that premise, then Oprah is realllllll good.
Hmmm.... Are you saying that Oprah doesn't do enough to help the poor? I wouldn't know. But, I do believe that you are right about providing for the poor. However, do you know why we are to help the poor? Consider:
Deut 15:7-11
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
KJV
and,
Prov 14:21
21 He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he.
KJV
Prov 14:31
31 He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.
KJV
Prov 19:17
17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
KJV
Prov 22:2-9
2 The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.
3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
5 Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
8 He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.
9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor.
KJV
Matt 26:8-13
8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
KJV
John 12:4-8
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
KJV
The purpose for the poor is for the rich to show them mercy because in doing so, they give honor to God! Furthermore, Yeshua` promised that "ye have the poor always with you"; thus, there will always be the chance to show them mercy!
Please be a little more judicial.
Retrobyter
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