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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/3/2008 10:14:23 PM
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nicole6598
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I second the routine thing. Nath CRAVES routine!! One night after we started the controlled crying and a strict routine, his bath wasn't ready after dinner like normal. He was FREAKING out and crawled into the bathroom to the bath LOL
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/3/2008 11:17:33 PM
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nicole6598
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I think that's the thing with *some* AP parents and resources is that they try and come across as like they are doing everything right and any other method is not....
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/3/2008 11:18:35 PM
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isaacsmom
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I nursed my babies on demand, wore my second baby quite a bit, did child-led weaning, and co-slept until they were older infants. But once I knew they were ready (by intuition and baby's cues, around 6 months old), we did CC at bedtime. Neither of mine had any problem learning what bedtime was all about (although it took my second a little longer). It was/is best for our family for everyone to go to sleep in their own beds. When the baby would wake up after several hours in the middle of the night wanting to nurse, hubby would go get the baby and bring him/her to me to nurse in our bed. It was great. By a year old, each of them were sleeping in their own beds all night long.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/3/2008 11:55:46 PM
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nicole6598
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That's so great Rachel that hubby was so supportive and helpful!!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 1:29:41 AM
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nicole6598
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Also I wanted to add that each CC parent and style is different! And you do what suits you!! So if you can only handle letting them cry 1 min at a time up until 5 mins of crying and then start again, then you do that. If you can handle a bit longer, then you do that too. And some would stay in the room, others would go. Some would pat or rub for a few minutes, others will not at all. You just try what suits you and your baby.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 1:42:40 AM
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nicole6598
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HERE is a link to some info on Dr Ferber who is considered a leader in childrens sleep and advocates for CC, not CIO.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 1:58:32 AM
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Mrs.X
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Heya, I belong in both threads...Hehehe.
Just wanted to clear something up about where the rumor that controlled crying is abusive and bad for baby's mental health. It is actually an article posted in the Informational Links in the Maternity Ward. The link is about Crying It Out, not Controlled Crying. So, that's where I think it came from. I think we can all agree completely CIO is not good for baby, while CC is not harmful and can work just fine. It's a bit of a long article, so if you don't have time, just read the 3rd paragraph HERE. Many of you have stated that you can tell what kind of crying your baby was doing, and when the baby was truly distressed you went in there to comfort him/her by patting or shooshing or replacing the binky, etc. This article is talking about when the baby is completely left to cry without the parent checking in. So, because of this, I think it's really important to know that there is HUGE difference between controlled crying and crying it out.
That said, I did some controlled crying with Timmy when he was 15 months old. I was a couple months along with Jimmy, and I couldn't fathom rocking two babies to sleep at the same time, especially since Timmy was so particular about the way he was rocked and his environment. This was our routine after the fun part of the bedtime routine, like the singing and story book and bottle. After all the fun stuff, I would rock Timmy for 45 minutes to an hour (the bottle no longer put him to sleep, so I had to work a lot harder with rocking). He had to have complete silence since noise startled him easily (BTW, that whole bit about getting them used to sleeping through noise, doesn't work for every child). Once he was out, I had to wait a few minutes to lay him in his crib or he would wake, if I waited too long he would wake. There was a very small window of opportunity to lay him down without waking him. So, I would carefully and quietly get up trying not to jostle him too much, sneak over to the crib (which had a heating pad in it so as the cold sheets wouldn't wake him), carefully and quietly remove the heating pad while he was still in my arms, slowly lay him down and flip him onto his belly in one swift, seamless motion. Praise God at 12 months he was sleeping through the night, so I only had to go through this whole ordeal twice per day, once at nap and once at bedtime. However, when he was sick like with a cold or something, he would wake several times a night, so I had to do that several times a night when he was with a cold. Something had to give. I couldn't do it anymore. Robert didn't know his tricks so he couldn't put him to sleep, and my mom (who lived with us at the time) worked the swing shift so she was gone at bedtime. She did help me a lot for middle of the night stuff though and naptime.
We started controlled crying one night, I think it was Manda telling me how she did it with her kids, returning to calm them and give them their binkies, etc. So, we tried it, and it took 15 minutes for 3 nights. I would return to his room and pat, shoosh, rub him and give him his binky every 3 minutes or so. He never did the "distressed" crying, it was more like "angry" crying. After that, he happily talked himself to sleep.
The co-sleeping and being a pacifier for Jimmy works out OK for us because I'm getting enough sleep, so I don't mind it. We're both happy.
< Message edited by Mrs.X -- 10/4/2008 2:07:42 AM >
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A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 6:48:20 AM
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HenriettasCat
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I also belong in both folders. Whilst I primarily am what you would call a traditional AP parent (esp with my 2nd) i do think CC has its place. I also think you can do AP CC! For example, with my first I would never go straight to him when he started crying, I understood his cries, they would start as a grumble and then work themselves up. When his cry got more demanding I would wait a minute and then go to him, or more often than not it might turn back to a grumble and he'd go off back to sleep (maybe just wind?) - I also noticed that when going down to sleep he would use his cry to 'self soothe', a sort of grumble which petered off. I did this with him from a young age. His cot was next to me in our bedroom and I bf until he self weaned at 1 year. AP'ing is about responding to your child's needs - that means understanding his cries and responding appropriately. This I did.
My second child I was totally 'AP'. I bf through the night and dh was happy to be in the spare bedroom for a year. i would go to him as soon as he would wake (or he could just roll and suck!) because I didn't want him to wake the others. I was struggling deeply at that time because I also had a 2 year old and I felt that I couldn't meet anyone's needs. Looking back I had some kind of depression. AP was my way of feeling that OJ had something of me and I was able to bond. I am very thankful for that time, though it was exhausting. He didn't take solids until 9 months and BF until nearly 21/2. I also found out that I had undiagnosed hypothyroidism which exasperated my exaustion.
Now we are contemplating number 3 I have decided that whilst I will bf I will try and get this one in their own cot. I have to be able to function and I already struggle with lack of sleep - my youngest has eczema which wakes him and my eldest is also known to come into our room in the night. I therefore unashamedly will go back to the routine I had with ds1.
CC is not abusive. Being a mother is far more holistic than that and sometimes we have to decide our priorities. For me, being a functioning adult during the day, who is not snapping at everyone and resenting the baby, is far more important than being some kind of supermum who is there at every wimper (not making any digs at anyone).
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 7:18:22 AM
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nicole6598
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I like that last bit Henrietta, that's what I think too!! What's the point in being this "super woman" or father for that matter, when you aren't actually coping deep down? Some women and fathers can do it (they look like they can, but who knows what happens behind closed doors) and good on them, but alot can't be strict AP.
I also think what Christina you said is important, the AP parents like to lump CC and CIO in the same category, but its totally different!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 8:19:54 AM
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Sideways
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Let's be fair, we like to lump all AP parents together too, sometimes. It's not an "us vs. them" situation. I said on the first page that some AP parents (or those with AP leanings) do sleep train, only they tend to do it later in the child's life and perhaps a bit different then we might.
I think there are a lot of parents who could find themselves cherry picking parts of both philosophies, depending on their own inclinations and the child's personality.
For example, I mostly BF'ed on demand, but I parent-led weaned at 15 months (by then Nathan was pretty cool with weaning, though, he didn't resist). I was gonna wait for solids, but by 4.5 months, the situation became desperate, and he really took to solids immediately.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 8:30:23 AM
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nicole6598
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You're right Maggie it doesnt have to be all or nothing!! 
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 9:57:23 AM
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lilyofthefield
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You all have been so helpful to me with this guilty feeling I've been having about thinking of trying something different. I guess I was doing AP without realizing it for the most part. These days I carry him less (he actually likes having some freedom in his bouncy, jumper or activity gym). I'm thinking of doing the CC when he's old enough. Other than that, I'd say I'm AP too, so in my mind they are not exclusive.
We do have a bedtime routine, but I still usually rock him to sleep (although I just laid him down for a nap after rocking, but still awake - I had to pat him, give his binky, etc., but he finally went to sleep). I actually love rocking him to sleep, but can see how it is a problem if he wakes in the night and can't get back to sleep without me.
Jae, would you mind sharing your methods with me so I can start thinking on them? I agree the time to try is not when you are frustrated and exhausted! I think the binky might end up being a big issue, but we'll take it as it comes.
BTW, who are these people who have babies who sleep thru the night at 12 weeks (or even younger)??? My mom says I did (I mean down at 8 and up at 7)... wow, I can't imagine.
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A boy is Truth with dirt on its face, Beauty with a cut on its finger, Wisdom with bubble gum in its hair and the Hope of the future with a frog in its pocket. - Alan Beck
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 11:19:32 AM
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Flintejae
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Lily - Jadon and I had struggled with sleep for a while. I didn't realize he was struggling - i.e. needing something different until a month into the signs. I thought he was waking up every 2-3 hours because he wanted to. It never occurred to me that he was waking up that often because he needed his own independence and the fact that I was waking him up.
How I handled the initial CC training was to first start establishing a routine at night. For me, I feed him solids, bathe him, do massage/clothing, and what we call "after bath baba's".  After I nurse him I watch his sleepy cues. Sometimes he plays/hangs out playing with his toys, me holding him, etc - sometimes he goes to bed right away. It all depends on what time it is and what his cues are. (when he took a nap last, etc etc.)
The first two nights proceeded like this:
I did the routine and then placed him in his bed. At that time I was teaching him to self soothe so I'd rub this soft small lamb on his cheek, turn his mobile on, put the passy in his mouth, and tell him "sleepy time". Jason and I then took turns going in there ranging from every 1 to 5 minutes depending on his cries. When we went in there we'd say "sssshhhhh", pat his back, put the passy back in his mouth, rub his face, tell him it's okay, mommy loves you, your safe - and then walk out. If he screamed like he was unconsolable we would pick him up, hold him a little (Never leaving his room!), put the passy in his mouth, tell him we loved him, pat his pat, say "sshhh" for a SHORT TIME - like a minute or less) and then start it over again.
The first night was rough. It took 1.5 hours. Near the end of that Jason could tell his cries changed to, "I'm so tired, I just want to sleep, but I don't know how (He didn't know how to self soothe yet) so Jason went in there, put him on his stomach and tapped him out.
(I think he tried to tap him out previous, but Jason refused to sleep at that point.)
I know it's a matter of obvious debate, but Jadon was always a side or stomach sleeper. I tried to get him to sleep on his back and it just wasn't happening. Previous to crib time, I'd always bounce him to sleep on the boppy with him on his belly.
We adjusted CC to what fit Jadon. In the beginning, we would tap him out on his stomach when he got to that point. The time shortened very fast and by night three we were in a GOOD place!!!!
Another added benefit was the fact that Jadon now sleeps on his back! He'll hold his blanket or lamb to fall asleep and then end up on his back as he sleeps. He did it on his own.
We never leave his room. When I put him to bed now I go in his room carrying him, put the mobile on, shush him, pat him, tell him mommy loves him, and then place him in his bed. He normally just turns on his side to nuzzle his lamb (which I place in his arms), and put the cover on him. Sometimes he fusses a little, but then I just rub his cheek with his blanket, tell him I love him, etc and walk out.
Did that help you any? Did I leave something out?
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Jadon, 3/12/08. Thank You, Lord, for Your Amazing Miracles
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 12:56:20 PM
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lilyofthefield
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Ryanne, I don't think anyone here has said anything contrary to what you stated. We all want what is best for our babies and a safe place to discuss what that may be.
Jae, thanks, that is helpful. Caden also struggled so much in the beginning just b/c we didn't realize that he wanted to go to sleep (early) and couldn't. We would stay up and rock him, sing, etc. and he would get fussier and fussier until he fell asleep exhausted around midnight. Now that we know his cues, he is much happier going to bed around 8pm and likes to be in his crib, but still needs help falling asleep. He already likes to rub on a little bear and a cloth diaper as he falls asleep, so hopefully that will help him as he learns. I am still not comfortable letting him cry even for a couple of minutes only b/c I know it doesn't move him closer to sleep, but gets him more agitated.
We are doing the routine (play with dad, bath time, relax with books/singing/rocking, sleep). I guess we are more fortunate than many b/c he does like his crib and will sleep in it, he just has trouble about half of the time staying asleep through the night (I mean with only 1 or 2 wakings to nurse). The other half of the time he gets up over and over, but falls right back to sleep if you just stick the binky back in his mouth (which may happen every 20 minutes). 
We'll get there.
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A boy is Truth with dirt on its face, Beauty with a cut on its finger, Wisdom with bubble gum in its hair and the Hope of the future with a frog in its pocket. - Alan Beck
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 2:58:33 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
BTW, who are these people who have babies who sleep thru the night at 12 weeks (or even younger)??? My mom says I did (I mean down at 8 and up at 7)... wow, I can't imagine.
I had one of those babies, I think Ruth did too. Don't worry, both of ours promptly stopped sleeping through the night around 4 months.
Just to clarify- Yes, I do think that CC or CIO are both abusive when done before a child is ready. That is *my* opinion and I am perfectly entitled to have it
You're entitled to your opinion, but this is not the thread to share it in, nor do we appreciate CIO being compared to CC, which is what your term paper is on. No one here has attempted CIO on their child.
We have not gone into the AP and attacked you for wearing your baby or not vaxing, so there's no need to be defensive about your personal choices.
Yes, my baby was sleeping well by 6 weeks, but like Ryanne said, his sleep schedule fell apart when teething and rolling over hit at 3 months.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 10/4/2008 3:08:10 PM >
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 5:04:58 PM
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Kath
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Hi!
Lets make sure we keep on the topic of Controlled Crying, and not bring other types of crying, i.e. Crying It Out, into this thread as they are two different things. Please do not discuss CIO past the point of this nudge.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely
Kath
Please do not comment on this action in the community or send me a PM about it. If you have questions, comments or concerns please email Fritz at community@salemwebnetwork.com allowing time for a reply. Thanks!
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 5:21:50 PM
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nicole6598
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Lily have you tried the rolled up towels? Have you tried placing your hands on him as you leave?
Although some people like to say you can start CC before 6 months, it really isn't recommended as if you look at how a baby develops they really don't understand things yet, if you know what I mean. Its too long to get into too. I mean if you start at 5 months and it works, that's great, but I know I wouldn't want to be really strict about it until atleast 6 months. Doesn't mean you can't put a routine into place and attempt to put them in their bed but if it doesn't work I wouldn't be too hard on them or yourself, there is so much going on in those first few months for both child and parent.
This is what I did for my kids..
After the bedtime routine, or for nap time (I started with nap times first as it was easier on me to be able to do other things as it may take a while for them to sleep the first few times)...
She was wrapped, placed in crib with her dummy (binky). I had a radio that was on static (white noise) on softly, babies like the constant noise of that and it distracts from other noises they may hear. Then I left for 1 min. After one minute of crying I went back in, "shhh" her, put her back down if she was sitting up, stroked her for a sec, then left the room this time for 2 mins. This went up until 5 mins, so she was only crying on her own for 5 mins at a time. In that time I went into another room where I could still hear her, but not so loudly so I didnt go in and pick her up Then after 5 mins, started back at 1 min again. I think the first time it may have taken about 1 hour to get her to sleep. So I did this for EVERY sleep time from then on in. In the night after a few days I would leave the crying alone time til 10 mins. By the end of two weeks she never woke up in the night again! She was sleeping ok before the end of two weeks but it was clearly two weeks that I recall. My Paed told me it usually takes about 10 days. I also had hubby help when he was home for the first few nights, but not when he had to go to bed, he would do the part when we were both still up.
For Nath, he was 11.5 months. He didnt want to be wrapped and my Paed said because he was older and knew what he wanted (ME) to try and leave him a little longer. So he was left for 15 mins before we even went into him. Then my paed said to go in, put him down. If he gets up, put him down again. Do that 10 times. After that 10th time of putting him back down, just leave and wait 15 mins. The first night I can't remember now how long it took, maybe an hour? By about 8 days he was sleeping through.
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RE: "Controlled Crying" - 10/4/2008 5:23:04 PM
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2shaye
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lilyofthefield
BTW, who are these people who have babies who sleep thru the night at 12 weeks (or even younger)??? My mom says I did (I mean down at 8 and up at 7)... wow, I can't imagine.
Both of my kids did.
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