Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (Full Version)

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Fledgling -> Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/4/2008 9:06:34 AM)

quote:

33.the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.
34.At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them--men, women and children. We left no survivors.


This sounds very cruel to me? Why would this be part of God's will?



Szaftoo -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/4/2008 11:05:27 AM)

I agree, it sounds very cruel. One aspect of a holy war was total destruction of the enemy and all of their possessions, which included their women and children. This law was called herem and was to stop and prevent the continuation of their false religion (see 7:1-5)



colliefan -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/4/2008 12:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szaftoo
I agree, it sounds very cruel. One aspect of a holy war was total destruction of the enemy and all of their possessions, which included their women and children. This law was called herem and was to stop and prevent the continuation of their false religion (see 7:1-5)


This does sound cruel. But this was God's judgement on evil. Also, God knew what would happen when evil was tolerated that Israel would be led astray.



MrFribbles -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/4/2008 1:21:48 PM)

One of the reasons for God letting the Israelites take over Canaan was to punish the people living there. They had done evil - not just the men, all of them.



Fledgling -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/4/2008 10:59:07 PM)

quote:

One of the reasons for God letting the Israelites take over Canaan was to punish the people living there. They had done evil - not just the men, all of them.


I believe that the women and men could be evil.. but the babies and toddlers probably didn't even know evil. Women back in those times
would have just been following the lead of the men, that might have
been their ownly choice.



SinnerSaved -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/5/2008 3:55:28 AM)

Here is a good answer:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanites-extermination.html



flyboy2610 -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/5/2008 3:18:19 PM)

The babies and children who were too young to understand the difference between good and evil are safe in God's hands. Do not worry about them. As for the adults, ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23



MrFribbles -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/5/2008 4:57:56 PM)

quote:

Women back in those times
would have just been following the lead of the men, that might have
been their ownly choice.


It's never their only choice. We always have the choice to stand up to what is wrong. Granted, it could be a choice between doing what is wrong, and choosing death, but that is still our choice.

As for the children, God's wrath was stored up against the nations. That includes the children. I know it doesn't seem fair to our Western, American sense of justice, but that just shows that we aren't still living in Old Testament times.



Bluethread -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/7/2008 2:04:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

Women back in those times
would have just been following the lead of the men, that might have
been their ownly choice.


It's never their only choice. We always have the choice to stand up to what is wrong. Granted, it could be a choice between doing what is wrong, and choosing death, but that is still our choice.

As for the children, God's wrath was stored up against the nations. That includes the children. I know it doesn't seem fair to our Western, American sense of justice, but that just shows that we aren't still living in Old Testament times.


No, we are living in more civilized times, where people sacrifice their children before they are born.



MrFribbles -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/7/2008 4:18:28 PM)

quote:

No, we are living in more civilized times, where people sacrifice their children before they are born.


I made no indication of superiority or inferiority. Just difference.



Biastai -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/7/2008 11:54:24 PM)

Norman Snaith has a really good explanation of this in The Distinctive Ideas of the OT.

I'll try to explain it briefly without making a ridiculous error. Primitive ideas of holiness included the terms in Hebrew qodesh and cherem. Qodesh in Biblical language refers to things or people holy to YHWH. Cherem refers to things or people "holy" or dedicated to another god. It was the duty of YHWH's people to destroy things (completely!) holy to another god because to YHWH it was irrevocably under ban. It was easy for them to understand but totally alien to us today.

It shows up again in Saul's sin against YHWH when not destroying all the Amalekite livestock.



Bluethread -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/11/2008 2:45:26 PM)

quote:

Primitive ideas of holiness included the terms in Hebrew qodesh and cherem.


Isn't this term a little prejudicial.



Fledgling -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/12/2008 9:45:49 AM)

I think this is still on the same topic.. I am having a hard time resolving how God's nature is revealed as being cruel sometimes in the OT. For instance

Deuteronomy 28:63.Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

I can understand the punishment for sin.. but that God would take pleasure in ruining and destroying his creation. My impression of God in the NT, is that God is sad when he looses his children to Satan. Why would God in the OT take pleasure in it? Is it because justice is being done?



creationtalk -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/12/2008 3:11:15 PM)

quote:

Deuteronomy 28:63.Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.


to put it terms of parenting...when my son is doing well, it pleases me to give him good things that he desires. But if he then takes those things I've given him and uses them in destructive pursuits or to harm others...then it "pleases" me to take them from him so that he cannot misuse the privileges he has been granted. It is my hope that in him losing these things (and other correction as appropriate) he will learn to not misuse his "blessings". I don't want to take away his things, I don't want to have to correct him...but as his parent, I have no choice.

God gives blessings, but when those blessings are misused, God, the Father, must discipline his children in the hopes of making them better people.

As for the instructions in Deut. 2 to destroy the cities--women and children as well (and I think in many cases even the animals) was to #1 remove the evil and #2 make sure the children of Israel did not profit from these things.

Let me ask this...if the children were spared, what would have been their fate? They could not be raised as Israeli children since there was the prohibition on intermarriage. If kept alive, they would most likely have been slaves or sold. And what would they be told about their parents? Telling a lie would have been forbidden; telling the truth would have caused all sorts of problems.



dduuggyy -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/15/2008 11:01:23 AM)

Please remember GOD"s ways are not our ways for he is beyond our small humanistic minds for he so created us "in" his image but not "his" image meaning his utilmate being. Most will not or have not read the OT as they have read the NT. For in the NT we can related to the readings much better than the OT for the OT is much broader in perspective and it takes in-depth study to be able to understand certain scriptures. The Bible is about Life and Death and we have to think in a symbolic and spiritual way and know that GOD's purpose and meanings is for the betterment of his purpose and not for ours to understand but to accept his grace and mercy. There is no fairy tale about the Bible for as you read about the death and destruction which is throughout the Bible. He knew and knows better that we will ever know for somethings our feeble minds can not attain such happening in scripture. We are derived on emotions as in the sensitivity of the babies and children perishing but there is nothing emotional about spiritual concepts. It is was it is and no error left or right. Let's accept the word as it is for it is written for purpose we just have to seek and pray for guidance and understanding.



DaveW -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/19/2008 5:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: creationtalk

to put it terms of parenting...when my son is doing well, it pleases me to give him good things that he desires. But if he then takes those things I've given him and uses them in destructive pursuits or to harm others...then it "pleases" me to take them from him so that he cannot misuse the privileges he has been granted. It is my hope that in him losing these things (and other correction as appropriate) he will learn to not misuse his "blessings". I don't want to take away his things, I don't want to have to correct him...but as his parent, I have no choice.
That is the answer right there. We sometimes fall into the trap of judging God by our standards. It is like these children grumbling that dad or mom took something away. God deals with us as his children. It is always relational. (God seems to care little about our abstractions) As such we "see" logical inconsistancies. But they are not really there when you look at Him and the situation relationally. (father and child)



Bluethread -> RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children (10/20/2008 2:30:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fledgling

I think this is still on the same topic.. I am having a hard time resolving how God's nature is revealed as being cruel sometimes in the OT. For instance

Deuteronomy 28:63.Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

I can understand the punishment for sin.. but that God would take pleasure in ruining and destroying his creation. My impression of God in the NT, is that God is sad when he looses his children to Satan. Why would God in the OT take pleasure in it? Is it because justice is being done?


The term cruel refers to undeserved or excessive behavior. How is it you believe this is underserved or excessive?



sojourner4Christ -> return of the Nephilim (10/22/2008 8:01:57 AM)

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quote:

RE: Dueteronomy 2 - why did Moses and his people kill the women and children?

The answer is simple -- but largely unknown.

Notice, in verses 14-16, the mention of "the generation of the men of war," and that they were "wasted out from among the host," "destroy[ed]... from among the host, until they were consumed" and "dead from among the people." Notice also, in verse 20, "That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time;"

Then compare with verse 4 of Genesis chapter 6: "There were giants in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

The tribes mentioned in the cited second chapter of Deuteronomy were comprised of giants, all Nephilim-related:

v. 10 the Emims
v. 11 the Anakims
v. 12 the Horims
v. 20 the Zamzummims
v. 23 the Avims

The 'fallen angels mating with earthly women' gambit (Genesis 6) was an attempt by satan, via his (fallen) angels, to pervert/contaminate the genetic pool so as to prevent the future birth of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

That satanic act upset the Lord then (resulting in the flood and the shortening of man's lifespan), and it upset the Lord in the Deuteronomy chapter 2 account.

So we should not be surprised that the Lord ordered the killing of every man, woman, and child of the giants' village. Such was to ensure that the evil Nephilim bloodline did not continue to flourish.

(In Jos 13:12, Moses dealt similarly with the giants: "All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out." Even the giant Goliath was Nephilim-related!)
.



Chapmon -> RE: return of the Nephilim (10/22/2008 4:49:23 PM)

It does not seem cruel at all to holy God. It is perfectly just. We all should be killed in like manner, but God is merciful. Job accused God of being cruel and God rebuked him hard out of the worldwind. We should never question God. He is good and everything he does is good. If ordering his army to kill Canaanites including women and children is what God ordered, then it was a good order. What God called evil was when the later generation in the opining chapters of Judges "had mercy" on the Canaanites and stopped killing them.



Fledgling -> RE: return of the Nephilim (10/26/2008 6:21:35 PM)

quote:

The answer is simple -- but largely unknown.

Notice, in verses 14-16, the mention of "the generation of the men of war," and that they were "wasted out from among the host," "destroy[ed]... from among the host, until they were consumed" and "dead from among the people." Notice also, in verse 20, "That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time;"

Then compare with verse 4 of Genesis chapter 6: "There were giants in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

The tribes mentioned in the cited second chapter of Deuteronomy were comprised of giants, all Nephilim-related:


Weren't the Nephilim killed in the flood.. and isn't everyone on earth a descendant of Noah? If so, there should have not been any Nephilim after the flood, unless fallen angels came down again... after the flood. I don't see a reference for that.



Fledgling -> RE: return of the Nephilim (10/28/2008 10:08:47 PM)

OOps I see the flaw in my logic.. The fallen angels probably were not killed in the flood and so they could have bred again and made more Nephilim..



SinnerSaved -> RE: return of the Nephilim (10/29/2008 2:47:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fledgling

Weren't the Nephilim killed in the flood.. and isn't everyone on earth a descendant of Noah? If so, there should have not been any Nephilim after the flood, unless fallen angels came down again... after the flood. I don't see a reference for that.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Fledgling

The fallen angels probably were not killed in the flood and so they could have bred again and made more Nephilim..


Fledgling,

You were right the first time - only Noah and seven of his family survived the flood. God does not make mistakes, whereby He would have to put things right later. When He sent the flood, it achieved His aim which was:

Genesis 6:2

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He did not later find that the Nephilim miraculously survived His flood and therefore had to take corrective action!

However, He would not allow the Sons of God and the Daughters of Men to breed again. The fallen angels which were responsible for the Nephilim are awaiting judgement. It is these angels whom Jesus visited between His crucifixion and His resurrection:

1 Peter 3:19-20

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



Fledgling -> RE: return of the Nephilim (10/29/2008 7:48:19 AM)

SinnerSaved,

Thanks for the clarification.. I was looking at it simplistically thinking that Satan was still here after the flood, therefore the other fallen angels might be too.. being non-mortal they would not have drowned.

I guess I am showing my lack of knowledge of the bible here.. I am glad you have clarified it for me.. and glad to know that the angels that bred with the Sons of man are being held in judgment by God.

Thanks :-) and God Bless You



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