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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/28/2008 10:42:41 AM
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wbporter
Posts: 80
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I am blessed to have sung the Verdi three times (chorus tenor) and to have accompanied it once in the 2nd violin section. The first seven minutes of the Dies Irae will definitely grab your attention to put it mildly. The tenor entrance in the next to last movement and the a capella section in the final movement also give me goose bumps, especially if the soprano solo can nail her final note at the end of that section.
Few churches can pull it off by themselves, I've done it in combined choirs or a home choir with many guests. The other time I was in a university orchestra that did it with the school's chorus.
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Pacem.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/28/2008 7:01:22 PM
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BarlowGuy25
Posts: 61
Joined: 4/20/2008
From: Miami, FL
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As long as CCM doesn't change and BarlowGirl doesn't get more accepted, secular baby!! Go secular! Many times, I just think of BG as a secular band when I listen to them anyway...check that, I think of them as just a rock band.
It will still be BG and a bunch of sec artists playing in the old iPod -- Christina, Britney, Beyonce, Nickelback, Underwood, Clarkson, T-Swift, Metallica, U2...you name it. That's how it works for me. CCM is boring me a bit...when I listen to "Every Man" by Casting and my heart's not in it 100%, it's time to reach for the T.I., friends. And the Rihanna...ella, ella, EH, EH, EH!
Blezzingz, mah peeps...
Ray from the 305
_____________________________
PROUD MEMBER OF THE BARLOWNATION SINCE 2006.
Alyssa, Lauren and Rebecca -- the Ladies who saved my life.
HOW HAS YOUR FAVORITE ROCK BAND TRANSFORMED YOU TODAY?
"But a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised." - Proverbs 31:30 ("B").
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/29/2008 4:41:38 PM
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Jim Colyer
Posts: 13
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AC/DC sucks. That's for sure.
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Jim Colyer wrote Save The Planet.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/2/2008 11:42:34 AM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 342
Joined: 10/18/2007
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Perhaps a clarification is in order here...I'm referring to POPULAR music in this thread. No one really disputes the value of classical/art music (though there were certainly poorly crafted pieces of music in previous centuries also), it just has been given the time it needs to prove itself. To prop up Verdi or Beethoven next to Britney Spears, Nickelback or Audio Adrenaline is completely ridiculous. Even Phil Keaggy, YES, and The Beatles pale in comparison to JS Bach, Mendelssohn, or Haydn.
So, the point is, Christian POP music is just as good as secular POP music...just not nearly as prolific.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/2/2008 5:44:08 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
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Well why didn't you say so to begin with? Of course pop music sucks!
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Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/5/2008 12:25:17 PM
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GBrady
Posts: 50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
I think part of the reason for this is that there are a lot more creative outlets and venues available to secular musicians than there are to Christian musicians. Every town has at least a couple bars that have live bands (even if they're just cover bands), but "good Christians" don't play there. How many churches host musicians that aren't the in-house praise band? And when they do host outside bands, they're still likely to fall into the same bland CCM mold.
-Dan.
Head of nail, meet Dan...Dan, head on the nail....
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/5/2008 12:28:38 PM
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GBrady
Posts: 50
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
(Getting "close to the edge" now... Anyway, "seasons have passed me by")
ahaha, anyone?
OK I got the Yes album title reference but you lost me on "seasons have passed me by".
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/5/2008 2:07:42 PM
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Silverstring
Posts: 127
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Norway
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It's a paraphrase on a text line in the title song:
"Close to the edge, down by the river.
Down at the end, round by the corner.
Seasons will pass you by,
Now that its all over and done,
Called to the seed, right to the sun.
Now that you find, now that youre whole.
Seasons will pass you by,
I get up, I get down."
_____________________________
Everything worth something costs something
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/5/2008 6:08:07 PM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 425
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim Colyer
AC/DC sucks. That's for sure.
Solid amped up blues with soulful leads suck?
_____________________________
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/5/2008 10:01:06 PM
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markb77
Posts: 310
Joined: 1/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GBrady
quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
(Getting "close to the edge" now... Anyway, "seasons have passed me by")
ahaha, anyone?
OK I got the Yes album title reference but you lost me on "seasons have passed me by".
Lyrics from Close To The Edge, if memory serves me.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/7/2008 10:46:34 PM
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Nakedprey
Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
I would argue that you have not explored Christian music enough.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm.
Thank you for proving my point.
Argue away....you haven't proven any point. This whole topic is pretty ridiculous out of the gate. Your whole justification for saying secular music is inferior to Christian music seems to be based on the fact that the secular music realm is larger, which alone suggests that you've been able to sample every Christian and non-Christian artist that exists. Have that much time on your hands for such a qualitative analysis, do ya? You tell me that I haven't explored Christian music deep enough, but I have a sneaking suspicion you haven't explored secular music nearly as much as I have explored Christian music. I don't give any leniency to whether an artist is Christian or not. But I also don't sit around slicing and dicing everything into the Christian and non-christian. But when someone brings a topic like this up, all I do is consider what I, myself, have discovered in my own musical journey that has been going on since 1990 or so when I seriously got into music, and it's evident to me that the secular music realm has more to offer. Whether it's because it is larger is irrelevant. Considering every classical Christian artist or every Christian singer/songwriter with 50 friends on his myspace page is simply a number I can't and won't try to count to. So, I guess, in a way, my assessment isn't any more grounded in logic than yours is. But people say Christian music sucks for a reason, and that's likely because the good stuff seldom reveals itself. And until it does, I can't blame them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
Given that the argument is ancient, I think artist and composers like
Antonio Vivaldi
J.S.Bach
Georg F.Haendel
Joseph Haydn
Felix Mendelssohn
Olivier Messiaen and
Sofia Gubaidulina
should be included.
Music made and performed by Christians is quite a bit more then what's on CCM.
Seeing that there are ample amounts of non-Christian classical composers as well, I'm not 100% sure how a grocery list of Christian classical composers helps whatever argument you're trying to make.
< Message edited by Nakedprey -- 12/7/2008 10:55:07 PM >
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/7/2008 10:53:28 PM
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JoeyWest
Posts: 723
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From: Alabama with a guitar in my hands
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i listen to both. each has some not worth listening to and some amazing artists
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FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A TASTE THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW.
If today was your last day
and tomorrow was too late
Could you say goodbye to yesterday?
Would you live each moment like your last? "Nickelback"
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/8/2008 10:16:18 AM
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Silverstring
Posts: 127
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Norway
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
Given that the argument is ancient, I think artist and composers like
Antonio Vivaldi
J.S.Bach
Georg F.Haendel
Joseph Haydn
Felix Mendelssohn
Olivier Messiaen and
Sofia Gubaidulina
should be included.
Music made and performed by Christians is quite a bit more then what's on CCM.
Seeing that there are ample amounts of non-Christian classical composers as well, I'm not 100% sure how a grocery list of Christian classical composers helps whatever argument you're trying to make.
In the quoted post it appeared to me that you defined Christian music to be that of CCM. In responding to how I understood your post, I tried to make the point that Christian music is more then what is popular on radio today. As the case is with secular music as well. If this is misreading your post I apologize.
On the other hand, there is no such thing as Christian music IMO. Sound waves are neutral. People are Christians, what people make is not. Sometimes peoples creations speak of Christ and that is good. It's even better if it is done with quality. I admit this renders my previous argument moot.
OP has since clarified that the thread is supposed to be about pop-music, and I neither know or care enough about it to make a quality assessment between categories arbitrarily divided (Christian/secular). The pop-music I listen to is by artists such as YES, Pink Floyd, Roger Waters, Paul Simon, Sting etc. And ABBA in the car. Hopelessly dated in other words. But more contemporary then Bach.
< Message edited by Silverstring -- 12/8/2008 4:34:47 PM >
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Everything worth something costs something
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/8/2008 11:12:51 PM
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ebot
Posts: 11
Joined: 12/8/2008
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Now that it is clear the thread is about POP music, which I suspected, what is most interesting to me is how the forms of popular music work in relation to the Christian or secular content respectively. What kind of musical choices will a Christian band make compared to secular? Obviously worship music and choruses affect Christian bands song writing. But even more so, are there types of sounds that seem more "Godly" than others? Why is this so? And maybe it is so because of ideologically imposed ideals that are actually external to music proper? (Similariy, there are "evil" sounding musics like metal which are only evil sounding because the form and loud distortion are contrary to what were once acceptable forms of music.)
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/16/2008 12:01:05 PM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 342
Joined: 10/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Argue away....you haven't proven any point. This whole topic is pretty ridiculous out of the gate. Your whole justification for saying secular music is inferior to Christian music seems to be based on the fact that the secular music realm is larger, which alone suggests that you've been able to sample every Christian and non-Christian artist that exists.
You misread the OP. Go back and read it again. I did not say Christian music was superior to secular music. My point was that they are essentially equal in terms of talent, just that the Christian music pool is much, much smaller than the secular music ocean.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
I, myself, have discovered in my own musical journey that has been going on since 1990 or so when I seriously got into music, and it's evident to me that the secular music realm has more to offer.
Again...thank you for proving my point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Whether it's because it is larger is irrelevant.
Uh...no. That's kind of the point of the whole thread.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
So, I guess, in a way, my assessment isn't any more grounded in logic than yours is.
Not. Your assessment was grounded in a misreading of the OP. If you'd like to answer THIS thread's OP, I'd be glad to talk with you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
But people say Christian music sucks for a reason, and that's likely because the good stuff seldom reveals itself. And until it does, I can't blame them.
Uh...yeah...you CAN blame them! Laziness is no excuse for poor judgement. If you want to gauge the quality of secular POP music based on what "reveals" itself, what does that say about modern secular music? Turn to your local Top 40 station and tell me how many of those artists they are playing right now make your list artistically relevent groups or individuals. And that's supposedly a sampling of the "good" music available right now! Did you hear Kanye West on SNL this last Saturday? It was horrible! This is not to say there aren't cutting-edge, brilliant artists within rap/hip-hop...but what was that? And he's the one getting all the pub!
Bottom line: the music industry is the music industry, regardless of whether it is Christian or secular. You cannot just look at the most publicized groups and make a statement about Christian music based on them. You have to dig. Speaking of dig...did you ever listen to Dig Hay Zoose's "Magenta Manta Love Tree"? Amazing album and a real tribute to the work of the late Gene Eugene who produced it. And it was produced within CCM.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/16/2008 12:08:30 PM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 342
Joined: 10/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoeyWest
i listen to both. each has some not worth listening to and some amazing artists
Thank you Joey. You are a breath of fresh air in these forums that I had hoped would be more prevelant when I first signed on. This is, after all, a Christian website. I would hope there was more love for Christian music here than on secular forums. Sadly, it is just not the case.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/16/2008 9:34:51 PM
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BlindLemon5103
Posts: 213
Joined: 8/3/2007
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I am certain there are all kinds of good Christian bands out there that do not fit into the CCM mold...so it would be wrong for me to say that Christian music as a whole is inferior.
I say this as neither a lover of current CCM (with a few exceptions) and as one having no interest in the current "pop" music scene. That's because I'm an old guy (43) and most current music is either tailored toward a younger generation or it's that the style doesn't interest me, as I am a child of the '70s.
But back when I first became a believer in 1986, the only Christian music I could find on the radio was Steve Green, Sandi Patti, Amy Grant and other such "safe" choices. Not that I didn't like some of their work (matter of fact, I own music by these folks)...so I went searching for music that was more up my alley, so to speak.
I found bands like Rez, Adam Again, The Violet Burning, The Choir, Phil Keaggy, Ashley Cleveland, The 77s etc...and in my mind, as a man raised on classic rock and blues, these artists were every bit as good as their secular counterparts.
So it must be today...there is no doubt a lot of good Christian music out there just waiting to be heard. I don't have the time to dig these days, nor the interest. I have too many CD's as it is. The closest I get to Christian music "outside the box" is Mike Farris (thanks to the folks on these boards). He appeals to the jazz and blues side of me.
And I second what JoeyWest says about listening to both (I assume he means both secular and Christian) and finding there's good music and poor music in both camps.
I truly believe the Lord gave us some music for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment of the music itself. It can sing about the ups and downs of life as fallen creatures in this fallen world, and we can all relate to that at some level. And there are indeed some incredibly gifted artists out there who don't know the Lord, but are no less gifted. Balance, discernment and moderation are the key to enjoying secular music.
Now bear in mind, when I'm talking music, Christian or otherwise, I mean old stuff! I'm not saying everything current is terrible. I'm saying it doesn't interest me, as I am of a different generation! But what I'm saying is relevant to any era....Christian music as a whole is not inferior to secular.
This is long winded, but I hope I stayed true to the thread and made some sense as well. If not, it is what it is...
Blessings, The Optically Challenged Citrus Fruit
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/16/2008 9:44:01 PM
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BlindLemon5103
Posts: 213
Joined: 8/3/2007
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And one more thing, being this is a Christian website, yes, maybe one would expect more discussions of Christian music overall, but...
...I'd rather think this forum should be about Christians evaluating all kinds of music (both Christian and secular) through the eyes of faith, through the lens of our Christian worldview, and bringing the truth to bear on the wonderful variety of music that's out there.
Balance, moderation and discernment...and the ability to agree to disagree on some points. It's not an easy thing to do, I must confess....you have "Do not love the world" on one hand and "God gives us all things to enjoy" on the other. My goal is to find that fine line between the two.
Blessings again,
Blind Lemon
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/17/2008 11:32:12 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoeyWest
i listen to both. each has some not worth listening to and some amazing artists
Thank you Joey. You are a breath of fresh air in these forums that I had hoped would be more prevelant when I first signed on. This is, after all, a Christian website. I would hope there was more love for Christian music here than on secular forums. Sadly, it is just not the case.
If this is what you want, talk about Christian music solely and expound on the positive. Just by the title of the thread "Secular Music Sucks" you entered negativity from the get-go. Talk about your favorite artist and you'll find more fans of that artist. But be able to take some criticism as well. No one is judging your humanity OR CHRISTIANITY on this board.
Jesus took a lot of derision from people and I never saw him whine about it!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Secular music sucks - 12/17/2008 11:28:29 PM
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Nakedprey
Posts: 45
Joined: 5/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Argue away....you haven't proven any point. This whole topic is pretty ridiculous out of the gate. Your whole justification for saying secular music is inferior to Christian music seems to be based on the fact that the secular music realm is larger, which alone suggests that you've been able to sample every Christian and non-Christian artist that exists.
You misread the OP. Go back and read it again. I did not say Christian music was superior to secular music. My point was that they are essentially equal in terms of talent, just that the Christian music pool is much, much smaller than the secular music ocean.
Secular music is not as bad Christian music. You were inferring it is, but you're justification in them being equal is that secular music has more artists. No dice.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
I, myself, have discovered in my own musical journey that has been going on since 1990 or so when I seriously got into music, and it's evident to me that the secular music realm has more to offer.
Again...thank you for proving my point.
Your point hasn't been proven to me and I seriously doubt you can provide many authentic manifestations of evidence to do so.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Whether it's because it is larger is irrelevant.
Uh...no. That's kind of the point of the whole thread.
Moot.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
So, I guess, in a way, my assessment isn't any more grounded in logic than yours is.
Not. Your assessment was grounded in a misreading of the OP. If you'd like to answer THIS thread's OP, I'd be glad to talk with you.
My answer is that despite the fact that secular music is much larger than Christian music, doesn't make it equal to Christian music in ****piness just because it has arguably more ****py artists as a result of being larger.
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
But people say Christian music sucks for a reason, and that's likely because the good stuff seldom reveals itself. And until it does, I can't blame them.
Uh...yeah...you CAN blame them! Laziness is no excuse for poor judgement. If you want to gauge the quality of secular POP music based on what "reveals" itself, what does that say about modern secular music? Turn to your local Top 40 station and tell me how many of those artists they are playing right now make your list artistically relevent groups or individuals. And that's supposedly a sampling of the "good" music available right now! Did you hear Kanye West on SNL this last Saturday? It was horrible! This is not to say there aren't cutting-edge, brilliant artists within rap/hip-hop...but what was that? And he's the one getting all the pub!
Bottom line: the music industry is the music industry, regardless of whether it is Christian or secular. You cannot just look at the most publicized groups and make a statement about Christian music based on them. You have to dig. Speaking of dig...did you ever listen to Dig Hay Zoose's "Magenta Manta Love Tree"? Amazing album and a real tribute to the work of the late Gene Eugene who produced it. And it was produced within CCM.
Yeah that's what I kind of used to think too. Gee, if only they would open their minds and listen to Adam Again or Vigilantes of Love blah blah. It's all their fault for not walking into a Christian bookstore and doing some research or combing through the Internet searching for authentic Christian based music. Lazy? A little presumptuous don't you think? I can direct you to a few message boards full of music lovers that are far more aware of what exists in the "Christian realm" than most are here, and listen to pretty much none of it despite being exposed to it extensively.
Although I do like the occasional pop single, I don't listen to top 40 radio, and I'm not into most modern hip hop in general. I didn't see Kanye West. I don't like most of what he does and I definitely don't like what I've heard of his new album because he uses that autotune thing for every vocal, and he skewered a Tears for Fears song. I'll take A Tribe Called Quest over most of what passes for innovative hip hop these days.
I have heard MagentaManta. I bought it the week it came out and was actually disappointed with it because it lacked the rawness of Strugglefish. In retrospect MMLT holds up better since Strugglefish pretty much needs a re-mastering in the worst way. But I really only like maybe 4 songs from MMLT.
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