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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/30/2008 4:47:31 PM
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Abbreviated
Posts: 2101
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Kansas
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I've heard the statement here in Kansas that hsers need to police their own.
Not really sure what that means though.
I think the above statement is where Lisa is coming from.
How do you know they don't check out books from the library ?
With the 8 year old I don't see a problem with free stuff printed off the internet.
Both those ages could have their school finished within 2 hours of work per day.
Maybe they are kinistetic learners & do alot of hands on learning.
Can they read ? Are they polite ? Are the kids able to carry on a conversation ?
There is alot more to learning than just what can be learned from a book.
< Message edited by Abbreviated -- 10/30/2008 4:57:16 PM >
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/30/2008 5:10:55 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 8073
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I think many homeschoolers have been the target of personal attacks from friends and family who have no clue what homeschooling looks like. When we are used to being attacked by people that don't know what they are talking about and acussing of us things that are lies, we tend to be defensive. However, I think that it is possible to know when someone isn't educating their children. I know a couple of people like this. How I know is that they have explained to me what they are or are not doing with their children and the reasons behind it.
Basically what it comes down to is that we have to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Would it really be helpful to the children to say something to their parents about educational neglect? For some families it would. For others, it wouldn't make any difference, except they might shun you.
Personally, I believe it is a sin to neglect the education of one's children. That is the main thing that parents are for. The Bible doesn't say much about providing for one's family, but it has a lot to say about children obeying the instruction of their parents, which would indicate that it is a parent's responsibility to prepare their children to be productive adults. If a parent isn't doing that, they are in sin.
If you would be prone to confront this person if they were involved in another obviously sin, then this should not be any different.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 4:26:22 PM
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Andwhitney
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Joined: 11/5/2008
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I have come to this forum several times in the past because it says homeschool "support" and it is a christian forum. Until now, I have never even signed up to log in because, so far I haven't found too much "support" for our style of homeschooling. I read this post several hours ago and I have been unable to get all the things written here, out of my head and heart. We are "Christian Unschoolers". I realize that those two don't often go together in the same phrase, but we are "Both". With that, comes a lot of respect and trust. R&T in my child. R&T in God. R&T in this educational choice, etc.
I write this now, because I have had many disagree with the way that we are learning, since I don't see myself as a teacher and my child as my student that I have to create or buy a curriculum for. What you described about your in-laws could be a discription of my family if you were an outside person looking in at us. THIS POST COULD VERY WELL HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT US!! I see myself as a facilitator and guide or helper in my daughters learning. We learn together many things through living life. We don't replicate school at home. We aren't on a arbitrary grade level. We don't do arbitrary tests. We have no arbitrary school schedule. We use no scope and sequence. Sometimes we go for months with out going to a Library...........But I would certainly become your(as someone else already put it) outlaws instead of inlaws if you accused me of EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT. As a matter of fact, I would immediately be VERY defensive about my choices, because they are MY CHOICES and my child's choices, just like these choices are your in-laws choices.
Allison, You said in your original post that " There is no curriculum or program they follow", "They haven't started school this year", "They don't utilize their public library or use any other resources/outlets or avenues available.", " It's also that they don't put in the required hours per day or number of days per year the state requires and they don't follow the required standardized testing schedule the state requires either. ", "In my state its used primarily for parents to gauge whether or not the student is on grade level (which could be a helpful tool).", & "I'm concerned about these children who appear to be falling through the cracks and missing out on an education.". Then in your next post, you said "I know we all want to believe that all homeschool parents are doing a great job regardless of what materials they use or don't use.", "By sitting quiet and minding my own business I'm watching these children be robbed of an education and opportunities to be all they want to be in life.", "I'm not calling family services even though educational neglect is reason enough.", & " I had hoped to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by their children and not grow up to be functionally illiterate and unemployable."
After reading all of this together, I think that your heart is in the right place, but not your head is moving in the wrong direction. You also asked this question: " I know scripture calls us to accountability and to each other in love but what to do? ". Since you asked the question and I was led here today for some reason, I felt that I have to respond from where I am at(which might ((or might not)) be pretty close to where your in-laws may be).
I wish that I knew how long these people had been homeschooling, because it is possible that they are just trying to deschool, but if they have always been homeschoolers, maybe their education style is "unschooling". You said "no curriculum or program". Does there have to be one, like you imagine? and How do you know there is nothing going on there? You said, "They haven't started school this year". We haven't started school yet either, because we don't do "school" and we never stop learning. You said "They don't utilize their public library or use any other resources/outlets or avenues available.". How do you know? Sometimes we go to the library twice a week, if my daughter wants to learn something specific and the only place we can find resources for it is at the library. Then other times, we don't go for months. Do these in-laws' kids watch TV or have access to a computer or have games that they play? Do they have a yard that they play in or other kids that they do things with? Do they know people that have any kind of skills that they see them take part in or can learn from? Are the parents of these kids even sort of intelligent and have conversations with their own kids? Do they read to their kids? Do they have any books or tapes or cd's in their house that the kids can use? Do they cook food to eat and let the kids take part in that? Do they have a place that they live that they have to keep neat or picked up? THESE ARE ALL LEARNING TOOLS IN MY HOUSE! You said, "It's also that they don't put in the required hours per day or number of days per year the state requires and they don't follow the required standardized testing schedule the state requires either. ", "In my state its used primarily for parents to gauge whether or not the student is on grade level (which could be a helpful tool)." If they are unschoolers and don't want to replicate school at home (because they have their reasons), then they are putting in ALL THAT TIME AND MORE. Just because we don't do "school" a certain number of days for a certain number of hours, doesn't mean that we aren't putting in enough and MORE hours than what would be required of learning time. IN OUR HOUSE, WE DON'T EVEN TAKE BREAKS FROM LEARNING ON WEEKENDS OR HOLIDAYS OR SUMMER BREAK! In our state, there is no required testing.....But I don't have to depend on a test to tell me or(as you put it) be a helpful tool to guage whether my child is on a grade level or not, because I could care less if my child is on a grade level that someone else has decided my child should be on. Now, following the law is an issue, but it is their issue........NOT YOURS. If you are driving down the road that has a posted speed limit of 55 and you are going 65, is it your in-laws responsibility to make you comply?....NO! Is it even up to them to come to your house later and say "by the way I noticed that you were driving over the speed limit yesterday when you passed me on the highway and I don't think that you better do that anymore! That would be your issue, not theirs. Right? You said, "I'm concerned about these children who appear to be falling through the cracks and missing out on an education." Concern for these children is very comendable(as I said before, I think your heart IS in the right place), but they appear to be falling through the cracks that YOU see. Are those cracks really there? Every one has gaps, because not everyone keeps in their brains, every thing that they have been taught or learned along the way. We usually remember what we are interested in or what we need to know to use on a daily basis or learn things as need. So are there really cracks that you think you see, or just the gaps that every one has, including you and your kids, too ? What education do you think they are missing out on? The kind of education that you think they should have? The kind that the curriculum companies think they should have? The kind that the schools think they should have? Many people take their children out of schools or never send them because they don't think that is the kind of education that their children should have. So, what kind of education do you think they are missing out on and why is it up to you to decide for them how or what that education should be? Then you said, "I know we all want to believe that all homeschool parents are doing a great job regardless of what materials they use or don't use.", "By sitting quiet and minding my own business I'm watching these children be robbed of an education and opportunities to be all they want to be in life.". Ditto.....on what I just said.........How do you know they are being robbed of an education? My child studies a lot of what she is interested in, RIGHT NOW....so she is being what she wants to be in her life. She is already living her life. We aren't waiting to find out what she wants to be in life, like she is a caterpillar waiting to come out of a cacoon. I do however understand where you are coming from. You want them to grow up into something and think they are being robbed of that opportunity.....But if you are deciding what things these children should be learning, then aren't you trying to decide for them what they need to learn in order to be whatever it is YOU want them to be? On another note....sometimes "sitting quietly" and most definitely "minding my own business"(like working on us, instead of others), and listening for God to give us the answers is what we do as christians. What God calls us to do! You said, "I'm not calling family services even though educational neglect is reason enough.". Sometimes calling family services is the right thing to do in situations and I am not telling you that I think this should never be an option. I guess I am now just asking you by what determination you have made the decision that these parents are guilty of educational neglect?? By looking at the things in this post, I could say that a lot is similar between your in-laws and my family, but I know that I am not guilty of educational neglect or any other kind of neglect, for that matter. On the contrary, I am having to work harder and harder every day to find the things for my daughter that she needs in order to learn all that she wants to learn about.(sometimes that is in books or magazines....sometimes a specific class.....sometimes a new Nintendo DS game(like the new Japanese Coach game, since she wants to learn more japanese that way)......sometimes a bought curriculum, or.......sometimes the internet.....sometimes a TV show. Is that how school looks in your home? Probably not!! But does that mean that I am guilty of educational neglect? ...ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Last, you said " I had hoped to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by their children and not grow up to be functionally illiterate and unemployable." As I said before, I think that your heart is in the right place, but it is never encouraging to me, as a parent to hear that someone in my family or friends thinks that my children might be functionally illiterate or unemployable because of my homeschooling style. It sounds to me that you want your inlaws to do it your way........or that the children are going to turn out functionally illiterate or unemloyable. Just because "school" and certain "right ways" to teach children(methods that you may approve of) have been proven to work along the way, there is also proof that these ways do not ALWAYS work for ALL children. Maybe your in-laws were asking you what curriculum you use because they don't know where to go with education styles or where to start..........or MAYBE they are asking you because they want to get an idea of how you will react to their choice to teach or NOT teach and facilitate their childrens learning and now don't really want to hear of your disapproval of their choices. Sometimes, I ask other homeschoolers about what curriculum they use, just so I can find out how open minded they are or how much freedom they allow their children in making those choices. Is it possible that this might be the situation???
I took the long way to answer your original question about what to do??, but I just wanted to point out that there are many ways to go about homeschooling and "christian homeschooling" and to say to you and everybody else, that I think we need to all come to an agreement that we all don't have to do it the same way. God gives us choices to make for ourselves(free will), but he doesn't give us permission to decide for our neighbors or our friends or in this case, our inlaws what way they are supposed to provide an education for their children. God led me to homeschooling in a really shocking sort of way. Then he led me to people who really encouraged me and gave me information about curriculum(when I asked for it). Then he led me away from the strict(only one way to do things)way of thinking about homeschooling. Now I am parenting in a very peaceful and respectful way(most of the time--we all mess up sometimes and I do fall back into my sinful ways) and looking at my daughter as a person who God gets to mold, not me!! He put talents and desires and interests in her heart(not me) and it is my job to help her use those things God gave her. But it is not up to me, or you to decide in what way God leads your in-laws. There, that is part of the answer to your question. God says, judge not, lest ye be judged. Look to Him for the answers. Encourage your in-laws with THEIR way of homeschooling, NOT yours. Open your mind and "Step out of the School Box or off the School Bus and get a Life Education" A couple of years ago, I thought that anyone who didn't "teach" their children in a schoolish sort of way, was an idiot. Boy, did God put me in my place!!! My child never stops learning.........NEVER.........THAT IS FAR FROM EDUCATIONAL NEGLECT and far from being an IDIOT!!!
When you said earlier, "I had hoped to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by their children" I see your heart and love for these in-laws and their children. How do you know that they are not doing right by their children if you are not being judgemental in what "RIGHT" is???? Right by you????? That is the true picture...........Right by your standards!! If you truly want to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by THEIR CHILDREN, then figure out what is right for their children(not you) by sitting quietly(listening for God's answers) and being totally NON-JUDGEMENTAL about their educational materials or lack thereof. Notice the little things that God does put in front of us, like the fact that they print off free stuff for the kids to do that is "more practice, than instructional". If they are getting these print outs, then they have to be instructing them in some way on their own with out some curriculum telling them how to do it or maybe they are learning by "playing". Example......even when we were doing some curriculum, I showed my daughter different ways to do math than what those pages taught. We "played" with farm animal toys and put them in groups according to kind and size and color to learn to add. We took some away to subtract. We put beans in several cups to learn multiplication(3x4=12, because if you have 3 cups and put 4 beans in each and add them all up they equal 12 or 4 cups with 3 beans each, etc. or in my daughters case, maybe we used pretty beads sometimes) All I am saying is, if you want to complain and think that these children are going to be stupid, then maybe(just maybe) you aren't giving the parents enough credit. Unless something else is going on that you haven't talked about here, then MOST parents will not neglect the education of their children, even if it seems this way to you. Most parents want to do right by their children, but it IS up to them to decide what is right in THEIR family. If you want to help(which I know your heart is telling you to do), then talk to them. Show them your heart without judgement. Give them your support, no matter what type of homeschooling they are doing or in your mind, NOT DOING. But if you can't support their choices, no matter whether you agree or not, then I would like to answer your question by saying ..................STAY OUT OF IT, IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS TO DECIDE RIGHT OR WRONG FOR THEM........THAT IS NOT THE ENCOURAGEMENT FROM YOU.....Your expectations of them will only leave them with room for failure in your eyes. That could destroy more than what you see as not "right" now.
PEACE AND GOD'S LOVE, Priscilla Christian Unschooling mom to Whitney(11yrs)
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 4:37:35 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4407
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Public schools don't have to worry about losing their freedom to educate children. They don't even have to worry about losing funding. But we homeschoolers have a lot to lose if we slack off.
Actually public schools all over are losing funding because of low test scores.
quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
Still, I get very irritated with people that neglect the educations of their children and believe they are using the term homeschooling so they can be lazy.
I'm with you on that.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 4:40:09 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5140
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Actually public schools all over are losing funding because of low test scores.
I'm glad to hear they have some sort of incentive.
I've always been a little leery of "unschooling". I do believe that parents should have the right to unschool their children, but I stay away from it myself.
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Bonky
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 4:41:18 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4407
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
There's nothing inherently wrong with either speaking up or being quiet.
In this kind of situation I find that asking questions, in a genuinely interested and non-judging way, can help you understand your friend/family member's point of view and maybe make them think about what they're doing a little more.
For instance,
"What are you doing for homeschooling this week? We're doing XYZ."
"Sometimes I find we get tired and take a few days off. How do you handle that in your schedule?"
"What kind of system are you using for State compliance?...Are you worried about the State interfering?"
"What is X's favorite subject? I find that (insert name of your child) really enjoys (insert subject) and likes the new book we got."
"Are you going to the curriculum fair? Would you come with me? It's nice to have someone to walk around with."
"Hey, we're going to the library...want to meet there?"
"What's the one thing you want your children to get out of homeschooling?"
I find that the subtle peer pressure of just being active yourself and keeping the discussion alive seems to help ignite other people to their own level. I like Shadowspring's suggestions as well. Most of the time this is a question of motivation. It's easy for people to get into a rut.
Love this post. These are my thoughts exactly.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 5:07:34 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5140
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From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Unschooling is when the child decides what he's going to learn and when. All of the learning happens in the course of daily life (such as planting a garden or cooking meals) and as the child shows interest in various things.
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Bonky
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 5:11:22 PM
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stellaluna
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I might need another thread for this, but how does that ensure that the child has the knowledge needed to...well, to do lots of things?
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 8:58:21 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I do think it would be a good thread all by itself. I think I'll go start one.
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Bonky
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 11/5/2008 9:01:55 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5140
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Here's the unschooling thread: LINK
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I haven't come across anyone here who has been at all unsupportive of our choice, even though they wouldn't do it that way themselves. You can feel free to join us. 
