|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/23/2008 6:46:19 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
|
I'm still not sure if it's a sin or not, and really don't plan on losing a lot of sleep over it, but I can tell you this for sure, being fat will often get you openly hated and reviled, will have folks talk about you behind your back, will cost you promotions, will cost you love, money, and success, and will define you as less than others, often even in your own eyes.
And I think most will realize they will find this to be true even walking among and working with Christians.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/23/2008 8:33:50 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
|
If it is a sin, round John Virgin is in big trouble!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/23/2008 9:03:51 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
I don't know if it's a sin, but the bible tells us we are treat our bodies as living temples to God.
When I first went to join the military in the 80's, I was told I needed to put on 20lbs. before they would let me go to boot camp. I was 5'8" and weighed 111. I must've been a little anorexic because I thought I was fat. I put on the weight, then lost it again when I got to boot camp. It wasn't until I saw a picture of myself holding my rifle by my side that I realized how skinny I really was. During my time in the service I got my weight up to 145lbs, most of it muscle weight from working out all the time. I was one of those girls who swore I would never be overweight. Then I suffered a spinal injury and was discharged. I put on a few extra pounds because of this. Then one of the medications I was on caused me to suffer Hypo-thyroidism, this condition affects your metabolism. They decided to radiate my thyroid to kill part of it, unfortunately they killed all of it. Now even with medication my body switches between Hypo and Hyper thyroidism. Now I am about 60lbs overweight. I now have a much deeper respect for those who are overweight and what they have to go through. I'm still going try to lose weight through swimming and walking, maybe a little resistance training. I personally feel even though I have a medical condition, I still should do all I can to keep my body in as good a shape as I can, so I can present it as a living temple to God.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/23/2008 9:29:45 PM
|
|
|
MyCatSmokey2006
Posts: 3160
Status: offline
|
quote:
tell me about it. over my few years here, i have heard (read) it all on what people think about us fatties...especially in the men's folder. boy, over there the truth comes out.
i have learned that i am:
lazy
gluttenous
unmotivated
alone
stupid
disgusting
etc, and just a miriad of other things.
I just want to add: SMELLY! Some people think that all fat people smell, which is true in some, but not all cases. I'm a Christian with a weight problem and practice good hygiene, but sometimes when I walk by some people, they make comments about "that fat smelly (tos)."  These types of comments are just PLAIN WRONG! We should not be judging each other like this. We Christians need to memorize Matthew 7:1-5 next time we're tempted to judge or comment about someone's weight.
quote:
To be honest, I find that the sins I am quickest to judge in others are often the ones that have taken the deepest root in my heart. So, if you find yourself wanting to slam overweight people, maybe the sin issue has more to do with you and your heart than it does with their weight.
I totally agree with you, Kristin. We all need to remove the plank from our own eyes before removing the speck from our [Christian] brother's [or sister's] eyes.
_____________________________
Melissa
<---Smokey
Tribute to a Good Friend (Blog Entry)
MY CAT POST
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/23/2008 9:38:19 PM
|
|
|
Qtman
Posts: 9587
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
|
FOr the record a lot of skiny people smell bad too. Anyone can be dirty or have odor. It is not limited to overweight people.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 9:52:59 AM
|
|
|
elastic
Posts: 2453
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
If it is a sin, round John Virgin is in big trouble!
quote:
FOr the record a lot of skiny people smell bad too. Anyone can be dirty or have odor. It is not limited to overweight people.
amen to that.
quote:
but I can tell you this for sure, being fat will often get you openly hated and reviled, will have folks talk about you behind your back,
this part is true. it amazes me that people walk right up to me and feel as if they can say whatever they want to say to me because i am fat. i literally have complete strangers walking up to me to tell me what i need to do to lose weight, and this happens on an almost daily basis...and they aren't children, they are full grown adults. i usually quip a smart remark, or if they are really old, i will just say "thank you" and let it go at that.
but it is mind boggling.
quote:
will cost you promotions, will cost you love, money, and success, and will define you as less than others, often even in your own eyes
this part, well i think that is situational. your life is what you make it. i have found that things don't come as easy for me as they sometimes come for my skinnier counterparts...i have to work a little harder at some things...for instance, i am a singer. people don't believe that i am a singer until they actually hear me. they won't just take my word for it, so i constantly have to prove that i can do it....and beyond that, i am a worship leader. i was pretty much written off initially because i was fat and i think the leader had reservations over weather i could confidently lead a congregation, and have the stamina to do it multiple times during the day as well as take part in the set up of equipment and the subsequent tear downs.....i had to prove that i could do it. the skinnier people who have followed me don't have to prove such things....likewise, the one or 2 chubbier people who have auditioned after me don't need to prove it either. i guess i kinda lead the way on that one.
but it's in other areas as well....at my job, for instance, there is another co-worker who does exactly the same job that i do. there was worry when i was hired that i would be sick all the time (you know us fat people are always sick and in the hospital). there was worry that she would have to carry my load when i would be hospitalized for fat related causes. well, i am very healthy, and i haven't yet had to be hospitalized for being fat. in fact, other than my yearly check-ups, and a visit or two to get medicine for the flu, i haven't had to see a doctor at all, much less be hospitalized....the other co-worker? she's out sick constantly...her stomach, her head, her intestines, one problem after another. she's skinny.
they worried about me, but took a chance, and now i carry HER load instead of the other way around. i'm not nearly as lazy as people thought i was and when people want to get something done, they come to me. i get the job done, and i get it done right the first time.
i'm sure there are skinny people who have had to fight and claw for every inch of things they want in life, but it's been true for me as well. i have to prove myself every single day....i am good at going above and beyond what people expect because honestly, they don't expect much from me. but they are always surprised when they get it.
sorry i am long winded here....but i also haven't had to sacrifice on love. i have found it. i didn't have boyfriends in elementary or high school, but since college, and since i came out of my shy phase, i haven't lacked for people to date. i was proposed to 3 different times, and one of them took 
my dh treasures me. he doesn't see fat when he looks at me, he sees me. he's dated far more skinny women than overweight women. i was the 2nd overweight woman he ever dated....he only told me that because i asked him...he said it never occured to him that fat was an issue because he like me for me.
i am really saying all of that to say that your life, skinny or not, is what you make it. i do all i can to stay active and healthy, fat or not. i can't wait until i'm thin to start living because if i did that then i would never live. i have to live right now, where i am. being fat has taught me to work harder for things, to push for things and not sit by and watch other people take them. skinny people do this too, i know, but i have never had a skinny experience, so i cannot compare it to being fat.
to sum up, i would say:
Live your life; No Excuses
_____________________________
"Let's get something straight, kid. The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you. " Jack Bauer
 I Stand with Israel!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 12:13:36 PM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 440
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
|
What is overweight anyways? I now weigh 170-175 on a relatively small framed but mildly muscular 5'-9" bod. No one looking at me would say I'm overweight (33 in. waist, 42 in. shoulders). But according to the charts I've been tested on, I'm about 25 lbs. overweight! Shoot, if I lost 25 lbs., I'd blow away in a strong wind!
I've come to think of the sin of gluttony as eating more food than you should given the need of those around you. Back in Biblical times, most people subsisted on what they could scratch from the ground. If you ate too much, chances are that meant someone else wouldn't get enough to live. THAT would be a sin. I've many times seen and heard very large people claim that they don't have enough money to feed their families, yet somehow they have enough to maintain an extra 60 or 70 lbs. That's a sin, IMO. Aside from that, being overweight is potentially unhealthy, and other unhealthy habits usually go along with it. I don't doubt elastic and many others have bodies that are big no matter what they do, but the vast majority of overweght people take in too many calories and don't burn enough off, plain and simple. That was my problem, and I didn't lose weight until I changed my life habits pretty drastically.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 12:54:20 PM
|
|
|
elastic
Posts: 2453
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
Status: offline
|
quote:
I've many times seen and heard very large people claim that they don't have enough money to feed their families, yet somehow they have enough to maintain an extra 60 or 70 lbs. That's a sin, IMO
well, even this can be situational. i myself live in a very poor neighborhood. there are many overweight people in my neighborhood, and i have kind of reasoned that the reason for this is that it is cheaper to buy unhealthy foods than to buy healthy ones. i don't doubt that some poor people have problems feeding their families and are still large when it is cheaper to buy a bag of chips than it is to buy an apple. is it their fault? maybe.
i myself am not poor, so i can find better choices for my husband and myself. we eat a lot of organic foods and fresh vegetables,and sometimes in order to get those things, we have to travel outside of our neighborhood and spend $$$. i can't say that if i were a poor person with a large family that i would be motivated to take a 1 hour train ride to a pricey grocery store in order to buy expensive produce when i can buy a box of mac and cheese for 25cents that will feed a family of four.
i know this isn't the situation for every poor/fat family, but i would wager that it happens more than you know. a bag of single serving chips is 25 cents, and an apple on the street is $1.00....you can feed 4 hungry screaming kids with $1.00, unhealthy chips, or $4.00 worth of apples. some people choose to save money over saving their health. i can't blame them for that. produce should be cheap and accessible to everyone. unfortunately, some of the produce in my neighborhood might be inexpensive, but if it is cheap, you can bet it isn't fresh.
is this making any sense? you still can't judge people based on their size....skinny people live the same way. skinny poor people might eat the same things, but they just don't gain weight. fat is just one indicator of lifestyle, but it isn't the sole determining factor of a life lived in gluttony.
_____________________________
"Let's get something straight, kid. The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you. " Jack Bauer
I Stand with Israel!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:02:16 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
|
quote:
this part is true. it amazes me that people walk right up to me and feel as if they can say whatever they want to say to me because i am fat. i literally have complete strangers walking up to me to tell me what i need to do to lose weight, and this happens on an almost daily basis...and they aren't children, they are full grown adults. i usually quip a smart remark, or if they are really old, i will just say "thank you" and let it go at that.
Yep...people feel free to openly criticize you. They do plenty behind your back too, but they don't have the usual qualms about doing it right to you either. I started putting on weight in college and grew to around 450lbs at my peak, and I've seen some of it first hand. Usually, for me, it was behind my back, because in addition to being fat, I was also quite tall, quite muscular, and usually pretty darned angry. That's a combination that served to put a definite stop to the in-your-face hatred from people, and caused much of the behind your back stuff to cease for fear of me finding out. My way to escape abuse was to be uber-scary. In these later years, I'm much thinner, I'm pretty far under 300 nowadays, which is fortunate as it's hard to maintain "scary" as you head into middle age, and mellow out.
And, you're right, life is what you make it. But all these things in life are harder to do. All these successes come at a higher price than others pay. It's not fair, but it is what it is. I can't say for sure that being heavy has cost me money at work, but it probably has. As to healthcare, I've heard the dire warnings about fat people being sick a lot, but I too haven't seen that. I had a stretch of 8 years put together without a sick day at work, and in 25 years in the workforce, I have yet to submit an insurance claim above my deductible, and have never been ill beyond a cold. 25 years I have paid in and watched my thinner co-workers soak up those dollars and sick days.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:04:33 PM
|
|
|
elastic
Posts: 2453
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
Status: offline
|
quote:
but the vast majority of overweght people take in too many calories and don't burn enough off, plain and simple
and even this isn't exactly plain and simple.
most people who have a history of dieting, like i do, have messed with their metabolism. i can lose weight easily, but after 6 weeks, i hit a plateu and i cannot lose any more...and then i will start to gain.
some doctors say this is because of starvation mode. i am sure i can dig up some links, or do a google search and find the correct stats...but basically, some folks hold on to fat because their body is waiting for the next time they go through the starvation phase of withholding calories in order to diet. the minute they 'go off' of their diet, and eat normally, their body holds onto every tiny piece of fat it can hold onto in order to prepare for the coming famine.
it's never just as simple as burning more than you take in. if it were that simple, there would be more skinny people than there are fat people. the diet industry rakes in billions of dollars a year, and not because it works...rather because it doesn't always work. it's the only industry that actually makes money by failure.
_____________________________
"Let's get something straight, kid. The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you. " Jack Bauer
I Stand with Israel!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:08:44 PM
|
|
|
elastic
Posts: 2453
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
Status: offline
|
quote:
I have yet to submit an insurance claim above my deductible, and have never been ill beyond a cold. 25 years I have paid in and watched my thinner co-workers soak up those dollars and sick days.
tell me about it. sometimes, i think i have to will myself to be healthy, just so nobody can say "well, she's going to the doctor because she's fat...i knew it would happen one day"
and if one more person cracks me about diabetes, i just might snap. my husband has higher blood sugar than i do, and higher blood pressure to boot, and he is average/skinny.
i check my sugar once a week at the very least, and it is well within normal range. my doctor wanted to bug me about it, but she says until i actually develop it (because being fat, i obviously will develop it  ) she won't say anything else about it.
_____________________________
"Let's get something straight, kid. The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you. " Jack Bauer
I Stand with Israel!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:34:25 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
|
quote:
i am really trying hard to restist the urge to quote Nietzsche
Oh, go ahead. No one will mind. I've never read the man's work.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:42:41 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
What is overweight anyways? I now weigh 170-175 on a relatively small framed but mildly muscular 5'-9" bod. No one looking at me would say I'm overweight (33 in. waist, 42 in. shoulders). But according to the charts I've been tested on, I'm about 25 lbs. overweight! Shoot, if I lost 25 lbs., I'd blow away in a strong wind!
That was a problem many men and women faced in the military when it came time to weigh in. Some were bodybuilders and not the least bit overweight. They were just solid muscle which weighs more than fat. Yet, because of their weight they would be placed in special remedial physical fitness programs.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 1:53:06 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
quote:
I've many times seen and heard very large people claim that they don't have enough money to feed their families, yet somehow they have enough to maintain an extra 60 or 70 lbs. That's a sin, IMO
well, even this can be situational. i myself live in a very poor neighborhood. there are many overweight people in my neighborhood, and i have kind of reasoned that the reason for this is that it is cheaper to buy unhealthy foods than to buy healthy ones.
You're exactly right. Obesity is a serious problem amongst the poor. One, it's a whole lot cheaper to buy a box of mac n cheese then fresh fruits and veggies. Two, it can be difficult to exercise. They can't afford a gym membership or even a treadmill, and if you live in an urban area, even taking a long walk can be hazardous to your health.
But seriously, buying healthy, simple foods is a lot easier when you have more money. Those who live in rural areas might have an easier time buying seasonal fruits and veggies (or even growing themselves it in some cases), but boxed, unhealthy junk food is still very, very cheap.
My parents lived in rural Penn. for a number of years, and they were lucky enough to have a large garden and freezer, and dad hunted venison for our meat. During certain times mom and dad would barter with neighbors for fruits & veggies we didn't grow ourselves, but I think maybe that my parents were the exception rather then the rule.
_____________________________
This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 2:40:02 PM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 440
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
|
I recently came across a couple of statistics.
1- The average man entering basic training in WWII (my dad was one of them) was 5'-8" tall and weighed 140 lbs. (source History Channel)
2- I looked up the average height for a US male now (5'-9"+) and weight (190 lbs.)
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_ht_male.htm
http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_wt_male.htm
So obviously, we're growing wider faster than we're growing vertically, so I don't think it's unfair to say that we're eating more and burning less these days.
But again, that wasn't the question in my OP. Is it a sin, like the pastor said?
I don't necessarily buy the argument that poor people are heavy because they can't afford healthier, more expensive food. The issue is caloric intake. If you go to McDonalds twice a week for a hamburger, small fries and a diet soda, you won't gain weight from it. If you go 5 times a week, eat a double cheeseburger with super-sized fries and drink, you probably will.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 4:01:10 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 1010
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
One, it's a whole lot cheaper to buy a box of mac n cheese then fresh fruits and veggies.
Oh that's so true!! Whole, unprocessed foods are so much better for you... but the processed, pre-packaged, frozen stuff is so much cheaper. I could go into depth on this subject but I won't. Suffice to say (IMO) its all about how many calories of fat, carbs and/or protein you eat... its the kind and quality of them that plays a huge role in weight gain.
quote:
I am fat and rarely get sick..maybe twice a year. Also a lot of skinny people I know are germophobes and are always washing hands and usuing anti-bacterial. Their immune systems rarely get a workout and they are sick all the time.
Amen! Another pet peeve of mine! Our immune systems were made for a reason... to work!
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 4:25:36 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2431
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
quote:
I've many times seen and heard very large people claim that they don't have enough money to feed their families, yet somehow they have enough to maintain an extra 60 or 70 lbs. That's a sin, IMO
well, even this can be situational. i myself live in a very poor neighborhood. there are many overweight people in my neighborhood, and i have kind of reasoned that the reason for this is that it is cheaper to buy unhealthy foods than to buy healthy ones.
You're exactly right. Obesity is a serious problem amongst the poor. One, it's a whole lot cheaper to buy a box of mac n cheese then fresh fruits and veggies. Two, it can be difficult to exercise. They can't afford a gym membership or even a treadmill, and if you live in an urban area, even taking a long walk can be hazardous to your health.
But seriously, buying healthy, simple foods is a lot easier when you have more money. Those who live in rural areas might have an easier time buying seasonal fruits and veggies (or even growing themselves it in some cases), but boxed, unhealthy junk food is still very, very cheap.
My parents lived in rural Penn. for a number of years, and they were lucky enough to have a large garden and freezer, and dad hunted venison for our meat. During certain times mom and dad would barter with neighbors for fruits & veggies we didn't grow ourselves, but I think maybe that my parents were the exception rather then the rule.
Amen!
It's sad to hear personal stories from people who want better health, but are in these situations. I remember wanting to get past this ethical issue in classes because it can really make you depressed.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 10:59:07 PM
|
|
|
gaylel1
Posts: 1151
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
|
Speaking of not having access to good healthy food in the poorer areas, the reason why these areas have no access is because of the fast food industry which pick first the poorer areas. Now we all know that the poor areas have a high incidence of diease and other illnesses, let alone they do not have access to medical care to cure these conditions which these poor people w/o knowing it.
However, I applaud people like Councilwoman Jan Perry, here in the Los Angeles area who had a moritorium to ban constuction for these places and instead hopefully inviting places which includes healther choices which the poorer communities should have instead of going million of miles away to get the best fruits and vegtables but intead opting for a hamburger instead.
_____________________________
Hear "The Truth" with the "other" Jeff Johnson(http://www.calvarydowney.org)
Visit me at http//:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is being overweight a sin? - 10/24/2008 11:23:01 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano22
Posts: 2431
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Speaking of not having access to good healthy food in the poorer areas, the reason why these areas have no access is because of the fast food industry which pick first the poorer areas. Now we all know that the poor areas have a high incidence of diease and other illnesses, let alone they do not have access to medical care to cure these conditions which these poor people w/o knowing it.
However, I applaud people like Councilwoman Jan Perry, here in the Los Angeles area who had a moritorium to ban constuction for these places and instead hopefully inviting places which includes healther choices which the poorer communities should have instead of going million of miles away to get the best fruits and vegtables but intead opting for a hamburger instead.
That's true. I live in west Birmingham, but I often pass through Vestavia Hills/Mountain Brook. Mountain Brook is one of America's wealthiest communities. (Not that anyone would recognize these names, but some here live in AL; Natalee Hollaway was from Mountain Brook though-- maybe that'll ring a bell.) Where I live, there are all "burger joints," nothing of good quality. I go to college near Vestavia Hills and usually get my food over there.... but what of the people who can't get to better places? Many here have to ride the bus, and those in Alabama are so bad that you can barely depend on them for anything. And the food costs more (the healthier, the more expensive) when you can find it in the wealthier places, so I usually have to give up something. I remember one day I had to choose between getting deodorant and not healthy food vs no deodorant and better food. I've done that several times, having to choose between necessities and the type of food I eat (things more "necessary" than deodorant most of the time). I usually only have enough gas in my car to last for a day...w/no extra travelling. But at least I can do that... some people around can barely afford anything. And even the wal-marts and grocery stores around where I live don't carry the healthier options I see in wealthier parts of town. It's all the junk stuff...no option. Perhaps if they were even available here, people could buy them ever so often.
I'm having issues myself and I'm not as poor as many around me.... from what *I* experience, I can only imagine what others go through. I hope one day when I'm established I can get and have better options, but I'll always remember those who can't get "better." People can think what they want, but being poor can have many effects.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
) 
