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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 12:10:07 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
While I certainly don't think the US should have the only say, I do think that it has to act to protect it's own interests (as does Israel) and relying on the UN security council where Russia and China resist strong enforcement of keeping terrorist nations from getting nukes, may not be in our best interest.
And I agree.
You just have to remember that the US view is not the only view. I dont want any rouge nations to have nukes.
On the flip side, I'm pretty sure USSR were less than thrilled when the US supplied the Afghan Muhjadihn (sp?) with anti-aircraft rockets - stingers and the like. That certainly came back to bite you.
It goes both ways.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 12:13:41 PM
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EStan
Posts: 441
Joined: 7/27/2005
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quote:
Original: Wormheart
Iran with nukes are not a true danger for nuclear nations. They know that they will be annihilated if they nuke anyone. But the US would loose it’s option to pound them, because no one, even the US, messes with a nuclear power.
I guess this statement confuses me. Are you saying if Iran develops a nuclear weapon, it's really nothing for the existing nuclear countries to worry about? Because the U.S., or Israel, or somebody else will turn Iran into one big piece of black glass, right?
By that rationale, why not just give every other sovereign nation one (1) nuclear weapon, and then nobody has to worry about anybody else?
_____________________________
Eternal Father, grant that through the tears of repentance I may see more clearly the brightness and glories of the saving cross.
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 1:51:46 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Why shouldn't America have a say, a major say in which country could have a nuclear weapon and which ones should not?
Because you (like all nations) would use it to advance your own interests.
WormHeart
That is pure baseless fear.
Yes, when we have engaged in conflict there is some idiot who talks about using nuclear weapons. It is people like him that are kept out of the decision making process and as far from having any real say in the matter as humanly possible. Can the same seriously be said about Iran?
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 3:00:31 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1085
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From: NC via NY
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I assume according to you, if I may, that the US should be looking out for other nations before (?) looking out for our own best interests? Could you please tell me why we should not put the welfare of our nation and its citizens first?
As for the "common good," name one other country who has come to the aid of others in time of severe need as we did for Europe in World War II, sacrificed its military's lives and spent its money so that you and your European countrymen could have your freedom. If we hadn't intervened, you would be speaking German today. And don't try the Pearl Harbor stuff on me either. That only hastened our entry into the war. Your anti-US rhetoric is wearing thin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
However, the US like all nations look out for their own good first and foremost. That is not always the common good.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 3:07:20 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
On the flip side, I'm pretty sure USSR were less than thrilled when the US supplied the Afghan Muhjadihn (sp?) with anti-aircraft rockets - stingers and the like. That certainly came back to bite you.
I would say what came back to bite us was involving ourselves in in a war and then walking away before the job was complete (much as some want to do now).
The stingers themselves worked spectacularly.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 3:51:06 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
I guess this statement confuses me. Are you saying if Iran develops a nuclear weapon, it's really nothing for the existing nuclear countries to worry about? Because the U.S., or Israel, or somebody else will turn Iran into one big piece of black glass, right?
Of course it is dangerous. But it doesn’t threaten a nuclear holocaust.
Iran is not suicidal.
If they attack Israel, they will be annihilated.
President Ahmadinejad knows this. More importantly, The Supreme Leader (currently Ayatollah Ali Khamenei) knows this – and he is the one in charge of the armed forces, the guardian council knows this, the 290 members of the Majlis - or parliament - knows this, and the people knows this.
Iran is not a dictatorship run by a single madman.
They are semi-democratic, with both unelected and elected positions within the government. The parliament is on election every four years, and so is President Ahmadinejad. True, not everyone can run for president. They have to be cleared by the guardian council, but Ahmadinejad can be voted out like any politician.
To recap: The president of the United States are also the Commander in Chief of the US military.
The president of Iran is NOT the Commander in Chief of the Iranian military. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei controls the army, and he tend to tone down the anti-Israeli rhetoric a lot.
This is probably because he is not elected. President Ahmadinejad is a politician and apparently believes in negotiating from a position of (perceived) strength. Speeches against the US and Israel are the Middle Eastern equivalent of wearing a flag-pin and being Christian.
This is actually a pretty interesting read:
IRAN - Who holds the power
Treads around here often sound like President Ahmadinejad could just decide to nuke Israel. That is not within his power, nor in the interest of the Supreme Leader.
Secondly – the Iranian public is one of the most pro-western populations of the Middle East.
After 9/11, in Iran vast crowds turned out on the streets and held candlelit vigils for the victims. Sixty-thousand spectators respected a minute's silence at Tehran's football stadium. SOURCE
After the Afghan war, US negotiators worked closely with Iranian counterparts to form a new Afghan government.
There was a genuine opportunity during and after the Afghani war.
But just a few weeks after Iran and the US had worked so closely over Afghanistan, Iran was described by President George W Bush as part of an "axis of evil" in his 2002 State of the Union address.
That brought the relationship back to the icy chestbeating.
quote:
Voter turnout hit a record high at 80% in the 1997 elections which delivered a landslide victory for reformist President Mohammad Khatami. Women and young people were key to the vote.
But with disillusionment growing, only about 60% of the electorate voted in the final round of the 2005 election which brought hardliner Mahmoud Ahmedinejad to power.
I wonder why.
Then, in 2003 (according to THIS SOURCE) there was another opening, because Iran got scared by the Iraqi war. They thought the coalition would continue into Iran.
quote:
So Tehran made a dramatic - but surprisingly little known - approach to the Americans.
Iran's offer came in the form of a letter, although Iranian diplomats have suggested that their letter was in turn a response to a set of talking points that had come from US intermediaries.
In it, Iran appeared willing to put everything on the table - including being completely open about its nuclear programme, helping to stabilise Iraq, ending its support for Palestinian militant groups and help in disarming Hezbollah.
What did Iran want? Top of the list was a halt in US hostile behaviour and a statement that "Iran did not belong to 'the axis of evil'".
According to Larry Wilkerson, who was then chief of staff to US Secretary of State Colin Powell, the letter was ignored.
He states:
quote:
"In my mind it was one of those things you throw up in the air and say I can't believe we did this."
quote:
ORIGINAL: EStan
By that rationale, why not just give every other sovereign nation one (1) nuclear weapon, and then nobody has to worry about anybody else?
It wont matter if you give one to every Nato and Warsharwa (sp?) member. Mutual destruction is still in play. But nations outside those allegiances, like the nations of Africa, would go of the deep end.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 3:56:01 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
Because you (like all nations) would use it to advance your own interests.
WormHeart
That is pure baseless fear.
Yes, when we have engaged in conflict there is some idiot who talks about using nuclear weapons. It is people like him that are kept out of the decision making process and as far from having any real say in the matter as humanly possible. Can the same seriously be said about Iran?
You misunderstand. I don think you would ”rule with an iron fist”, but the leverage gained by having nukes are incredible.
Do you seriously believe that it was the conscience of the US rather then the arsenals of the USSR, that kept you from using The Bomb during the Vietnam- or Korea wars? Seriously?
If you look at my looong post above, Iran is not a oneman show, as many seem to think.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:03:17 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I assume according to you, if I may, that the US should be looking out for other nations before (?) looking out for our own best interests? Could you please tell me why we should not put the welfare of our nation and its citizens first?
Not at all. It was not a slam, it was a matter of fact.
If Denmark was a Superpower Extreme, we would tend to do the same thing.
But why should I, a Danish citizen, trust you, the US, to act in a way than benefit all of us in the long run. Our status is a bit obscured.
One one hand, we are a close ally and have soldiers fighting and dying in both Afghanistan and Iraq. On the other hand we are treated like trained monkeys, whenever US interest clashes with ours.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
As for the "common good," name one other country who has come to the aid of others in time of severe need as we did for Europe in World War II, sacrificed its military's lives and spent its money so that you and your European countrymen could have your freedom.
Uhm… France during your independence war? I dare say you owe the French as much as we undeniably owe you.
And yet the anti-french sentiments in the US is amazing. “Surrender monkeys”, “freedom fries.”.
I mean the Statue of Liberty is a gift from the people of France to the US.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
If we hadn't intervened, you would be speaking German today. And don't try the Pearl Harbor stuff on me either. That only hastened our entry into the war. Your anti-US rhetoric is wearing thin.
I’m not anti-US. I’m pro-Denmark.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:05:51 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I would say what came back to bite us was involving ourselves in in a war and then walking away before the job was complete (much as some want to do now).
The stingers themselves worked spectacularly.
Yes, they did.
Incidently, the Russian pilots was terrified of them. Captured pilots was usually tortured to death by the Muhjadin.
What? You didn't think the Taleban invented all those tricks when they turned against you, did you?
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:16:32 PM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 376
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
Because you (like all nations) would use it to advance your own interests.
WormHeart
That is pure baseless fear.
Yes, when we have engaged in conflict there is some idiot who talks about using nuclear weapons. It is people like him that are kept out of the decision making process and as far from having any real say in the matter as humanly possible. Can the same seriously be said about Iran?
You misunderstand. I don think you would ”rule with an iron fist”, but the leverage gained by having nukes are incredible.
Do you seriously believe that it was the conscience of the US rather then the arsenals of the USSR, that kept you from using The Bomb during the Vietnam- or Korea wars? Seriously?
If you look at my looong post above, Iran is not a oneman show, as many seem to think.
WormHeart
Neither is the United States a oneman show as many in the opposition would like everyone to believe.
Yes, I do believe it was the conscious of the United States more than the arsenal that Russia was believed to have had that caused us not to use nuclear weapons. America provides everyone, even politicians and military experts to spout stupid things, but it also provides a means for cooler heads to prevail and do the right thing.
Becuse we have been the first one to use nuclear weapons, I believe we are well aware the use of nuclear weapons is as costly to those who use it as those whom they are used against. It is overkill to the extreme. Eventhough it has been acknowledged that the use of nuclear weapons saved many lives and shortened the war with Japan, far too many innocent Japanese were killed, and made to suffer.
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:19:30 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1085
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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As far as France is concerned, we're probably even. It is rather disturbing though, that the smoke had barely cleared, the dead buried, when DeGaulle began his tirade against the US. And it hasn't lessened much to this day.
Concerning Denmark, you've been staunch allies and I'm thankful for that. But try to think of the US as something besides a big bad bully who carries a big stick. (wow, too many bees in that) If we were, the whole world would be under our control now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
I assume according to you, if I may, that the US should be looking out for other nations before (?) looking out for our own best interests? Could you please tell me why we should not put the welfare of our nation and its citizens first?
Not at all. It was not a slam, it was a matter of fact.
If Denmark was a Superpower Extreme, we would tend to do the same thing.
But why should I, a Danish citizen, trust you, the US, to act in a way than benefit all of us in the long run. Our status is a bit obscured.
One one hand, we are a close ally and have soldiers fighting and dying in both Afghanistan and Iraq. On the other hand we are treated like trained monkeys, whenever US interest clashes with ours.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
As for the "common good," name one other country who has come to the aid of others in time of severe need as we did for Europe in World War II, sacrificed its military's lives and spent its money so that you and your European countrymen could have your freedom.
Uhm… France during your independence war? I dare say you owe the French as much as we undeniably owe you.
And yet the anti-french sentiments in the US is amazing. “Surrender monkeys”, “freedom fries.”.
I mean the Statue of Liberty is a gift from the people of France to the US.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
If we hadn't intervened, you would be speaking German today. And don't try the Pearl Harbor stuff on me either. That only hastened our entry into the war. Your anti-US rhetoric is wearing thin.
I’m not anti-US. I’m pro-Denmark.
WormHeart
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:23:35 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Neither is the United States a oneman show as many in the opposition would like everyone to believe.
I know. The nuances tend to get lost as the debates runs hotter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Yes, I do believe it was the conscious of the United States more than the arsenal that Russia was believed to have had that caused us not to use nuclear weapons. America provides everyone, even politicians and military experts to spout stupid things, but it also provides a means for cooler heads to prevail and do the right thing.
Well, maybe you are right, and I am too cynical. I have to admit, I find it hard to believe the US would see untold thousands of soldiers die in the jungles of Vietnam, accept defeat and leave the south to North Vietnamese rule, rather than use The Bomb.
I hope you are right. But I doubt it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Becuse we have been the first one to use nuclear weapons, I believe we are well aware the use of nuclear weapons is as costly to those who use it as those whom they are used against. It is overkill to the extreme. Eventhough it has been acknowledged that the use of nuclear weapons saved many lives and shortened the war with Japan, far too many innocent Japanese were killed, and made to suffer.
I’m glad you feel that way.
As I said earlier – I’m not in any way anti-US. Merely sceptical of many US policies.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:38:02 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Yes, they did.
Incidently, the Russian pilots was terrified of them. Captured pilots was usually tortured to death by the Muhjadin.
What? You didn't think the Taleban invented all those tricks when they turned against you, did you?
Oh, I am completely familiar with what went on in Afganistan during the Soviet invasion; before the Afgani's were armed with stingers, the Russian assault helicopters mowed down villages, killing men, women, children indiscriminately. The Russians dropped mines shaped like toys to blow the limbs off of children. The Russians were certainly as responsible for creating the mujahideen as anyone.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:41:03 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Concerning Denmark, you've been staunch allies and I'm thankful for that. But try to think of the US as something besides a big bad bully who carries a big stick. (wow, too many bees in that) If we were, the whole world would be under our control now.
I am actually much more sceptical of a lot of other nations, but they are not on board here, so I will probably seem to vent a lot against the US.
I honestly think the US often don’t realise how their actions seems from the outside.
An example:
A Danish citizen was kidnapped by Afghani locals and sold to US forces for the 10.000$ bounty awarded for any foreigners handed over to them.
He went straight to Guantanamo.
Later released papers show, that after a month, nobody believed he had any connection to the Taleban or was there to fight the US (he was caught trying to leave Afghanistan across the mountains).
Even so, for a full year there was no access of any kind to our citizen. No Danish diplomats, doctors, lawyers, family or advisers was allowed access to him. None, zip, zilch.
It was extremely infuriating to on one hand stand shoulder by shoulder with you and fighting with you on the field, but then basically be told to go hump ourselves when we wanted to check up on one of our citizens caught in a legal black hole among rumours of torture and what-not.
And just for the record – the guy is an absolute slimeball and I have zero sympathy for him. By his own admission he was on the way to Tjetjenie to fight the Russians.
But the principles matter.
We have rules against nuclear weapons on Danish turf. No-one, not allies or anyone else, are allowed to carry or freight nuclear weapons across our border.
But every time a US vessel passes, we’re told to bugger off.
And of course (although it is old) at the Thule base, where your “true” missile defence are placed, which is leased by the US from Denmark, there was a crash of a B52 (I think). A large area was poisoned and the local natives (Greenland) was forced to move.
The Danish government demanded that the US cleaned up. And was basically told to shove it.
:-/
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:43:43 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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quote:
before Inauguration day
I think you can count on this is O is elected.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:47:42 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
I do not think it has ever been a secret that Iran prefers a Democrat in the White House. They know that they can bully a Democrat into giving them what they want. They know that dealing with a Republican, even a maverick Republican, would be more difficult.
Kenya is pulling for Obama too. If he is elected they will blackmail him. He has close family ties there and there is rumor that he was actually born there and flown back to Hawaii. All they will have to do is bluff him even if it's with phony birth records. They will do very well under an Obama regime.
It's the way the big boys play in the world.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 4:57:06 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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The problem with Iran getting an atom bomb is that they have leaders who believe that global nuclear war will bring the "hidden imam" out. Muhammad al-Mahdi...
They have a whole different mindset. They will use it is they get it.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 5:01:36 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Yes, they did.
Incidently, the Russian pilots was terrified of them. Captured pilots was usually tortured to death by the Muhjadin.
What? You didn't think the Taleban invented all those tricks when they turned against you, did you?
Oh, I am completely familiar with what went on in Afganistan during the Soviet invasion; before the Afgani's were armed with stingers, the Russian assault helicopters mowed down villages, killing men, women, children indiscriminately. The Russians dropped mines shaped like toys to blow the limbs off of children. The Russians were certainly as responsible for creating the mujahideen as anyone.
Yes, the Russians are horrible at those things. It still goes on in Tjetjeny, where systimated rapes of the muslim populations is used as a weapon. We saw it in Georgia too, no matter who started.
My point was, that the US was arming the very same people that would later turn against us. We are horrified by stories of the Taleban in Afghanistan, because they seem so cruel as to be inhuman.
But apparently it was all right when they did it to someone we dont like.
It's the hypocracy of it all. We (the western world) should stop pretending we are against terrorists and dictators, when we have no problem arming them and supporting them, if they serve our interests.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 5:19:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, the Russians are horrible at those things. It still goes on in Tjetjeny, where systimated rapes of the muslim populations is used as a weapon. We saw it in Georgia too, no matter who started.
My point was, that the US was arming the very same people that would later turn against us. We are horrified by stories of the Taleban in Afghanistan, because they seem so cruel as to be inhuman.
But apparently it was all right when they did it to someone we dont like.
It's the hypocracy of it all. We (the western world) should stop pretending we are against terrorists and dictators, when we have no problem arming them and supporting them, if they serve our interests.
Well first off, in any given conflict people weigh the greater threat. We were after all allied with the Russians in WWII; and then almost immediately upon the end of the war began the Cold War against them. We rarely get to choose only the nicest allies in any given conflict; and in the case of the Soviets in Afganistan, we didn't even openly support the Afganis until quite near the end of the conflict.
And you have seen what happens when we openly go to war in such a way so that we make ourselves wholly responsible for the outcome, as we have in Iraq; the world claims that we had no reason to go there, even though quite obviously Saddam was a proven dangerous and deadly dictator who openly flaunted his unwillingness to conform to agreements he made as a result of the Gulf War.
So America has experienced the spectrum - we are condemned when we take responsibility for a war, we are condemned when we aid others to fight for themselves, and we are condemned for doing nothing (as in Rwanda and Darfur).
So I think when I hear representatives of countries that have done next to nothing in pursuit of making the world substantively a better place, I am rather calloused.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 6:02:21 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So America has experienced the spectrum - we are condemned when we take responsibility for a war,
Only when the war is being fought on shady grounds. I haven’t heard any widespread criticism of the Afghani war, or Iraqi war 1.
We went into Iraq despite sceptical voices and in a rush even though no-one believed they were close to getting a nuke.
I have oodles of criticism of the Danish government for incompetence and a desire to “rub elbows” with big players, but treads about that aren’t really of any interest to a US board.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
we are condemned when we aid others to fight for themselves,
Meh – Iran is condemned as a terrorist nation because they supply your enemies in Lebanon and Iraq – but you are the champions of freedom when you supply the enemies of the USSR with weapons.
Can’t you truly see the hypocrital stance? At least admit that it’s a dirty fight.
It’s the attitude, not the logic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
and we are condemned for doing nothing (as in Rwanda and Darfur).
That’s goes with being the big guy on the job. :-p
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
So I think when I hear representatives of countries that have done next to nothing in pursuit of making the world substantively a better place, I am rather calloused.
And you know how much of Danish contributions to the world? ;-)
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 6:18:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Iran is condemned as a terrorist nation because they supply your enemies in Lebanon and Iraq – but you are the champions of freedom when you supply the enemies of the USSR with weapons.
Can’t you truly see the hypocrital stance? At least admit that it’s a dirty fight.
It’s the attitude, not the logic.
You are trying to draw a moral equivalency between the Soviet Union and the US; they aren't morally equivalent.
The Soviets didn't go into Afganistan in attempt to relieve them of a dictator and allow them to elect their own leaders and determine their own destiny; that is by in large what we done in Iraq and Lebanon (though we really have never even occupied Lebanon, much less gone to war with them). We could have at any number of times annexed a number of countries we spilled blood over - Japan, N. Korea, Iraq, etc. - but by and large when the war is over we try to leave those places to determine their own destinies, and often leave them better than they otherwise would have been without our help.
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That’s goes with being the big guy on the job.
Sure, and so does sometimes acting when the 'world opinion' isn't in agreement.
quote:
And you know how much of Danish contributions to the world?
I enjoy Danishes as much as any American. ;)
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 7:09:10 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
You are trying to draw a moral equivalency between the Soviet Union and the US; they aren't morally equivalent.
No, I’m not, I’m trying to draw a comparison of the means.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The Soviets didn't go into Afganistan in attempt to relieve them of a dictator and allow them to elect their own leaders and determine their own destiny; that is by in large what we done in Iraq and Lebanon (though we really have never even occupied Lebanon, much less gone to war with them).
Well, lets use Iraq as an example.
USSR went into Afghanistan to annex it. You supplied the “unlawful combatants” with weapons to fight the invaders.
We invaded Iraq, and claimed it was to liberate them.
Lots of independent rebel groups have emerged to fight the invaders (not the Al Quada – the other groups). Iran is supplying the fellow Shia in Iraq with weapons to fight the invaders.
Do the Iraqi rebels have a cause to fight us?
We might think of ourselves as liberators, but to the Shia we came to topple them.
My point is not who is morally right – it’s that we use terms like terrorist and unlawful combatants, when we don’t like them, and rebels and freedom fighters, when we do like them.
I think you have a hard time arguing that the Iraqi rebels should just accept what we are doing, but other rebels have a right to fight.
That was what I meant by hypocracy. Or do you seriously mean that the term “unlawful combatant” should depend on who they are fighting?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
And you know how much of Danish contributions to the world?
I enjoy Danishes as much as any American. ;)
It shows. :-p
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Iran's Preemptive Strike Plans & Election - 10/24/2008 7:12:52 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
Status: offline
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Thinking a bit about this tread, I think I realised something.
I often go head to head with Jhud and some of you others in these threads, but in reality we are very close to each other.
The US does a whole lot of good in the world, but you often seem a bit blindsided by the dark spots.
It’s not the logic, it’s the attitude.
In Denmark people tend to be discrete and not overly bombastic. We don’t beat our own chest and proclaim “we rule!”
We are pretty critical of our own government and weary of nationalistic tendencies since we had some pretty grim experiences in that regard.
So it often seems very surreal to hear Americans black/white version of the world where they are always the heroes. All nations do unethical things from time to time, but it seems the American response is: “No, we don’t.”
There seem to be little room for nuances, while those who disagree with something are branded US-haters or communists. Just see the election. Two very good candidates, but people talk like either one of them will break the seven seals.
I swear, I have seen threads here, where a poster in one sentence argued that the prisoners in Guantanamo should have no rights, since only US citizens should have legal rights, and in the next sentence proclaim that the US is the most democratic and free nation in the world.
It boggles the mind.
It’s like being in a room with a teenage vegan, who are in your face about “meat is murder” while wearing a leather jacket and snakeskin boots. :-)
In short – I’m not anti-US, but sometimes the attitude makes me wanner smack someone upside the head.
I really do appreciate the US as an ally – I just think the cultural differences makes us very prone to misunderstanding each other.
And I have probably derailed this thread enough.
I’m not backing down – I’m pretty certain I’m right – but it is probably a good idea to keep the common ground in mind, when we argue about differences. :-)
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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