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hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 12:16:46 PM
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abraxas
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Say you and your spouse are considering having another child. But then you come to know with absolute certainty that the next child you conceive will end up in hell. Would you go ahead and have the child anyway?
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 12:41:29 PM
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manda59
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You couldn't know with absolute certainty.
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mvic, January 2009
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 12:47:54 PM
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abraxas
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You do. You were granted a divine vision of the future. It's a hypothetical, humor me.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 12:49:44 PM
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His_4_Ever
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This isn't a very good question, since all children come from God.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 1:02:34 PM
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abraxas
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okay...but in my hypothetical one would come from God via you and your spouse, except that you are given certainty that he will follow a path that will lead him to hell.
So do you opt to go ahead and have the child?
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 1:08:54 PM
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car2ner
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hypothetically, no, I would not have the child.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 1:16:33 PM
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His_4_Ever
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Hypothetically speaking, what is the reason my child would go to hell for? Is it because he doesn't believe in God? Is it he's because he's some kind of evil person who inflicts pain and harm on other people?
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 1:22:08 PM
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abraxas
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car2ner, thank you. I wouldn't either and I can't imagine who would.
campbe, let's say he would have a decent life, be a good son, husband, father, but he'd be an atheist, or he'd embrace an eastern religion, or he'd be a mormon, or a JW. Whatever it is, the bottom line is that he would go to hell.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 1:33:55 PM
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MrFribbles
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If we have a divine vision assuring us that our next child is going to hell, do we really have a choice? We know there will be a of ours child going to hell. We've already seen the future. Unless you're suggesting that the divine vision can be changed?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 2:19:13 PM
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His_4_Ever
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Well, if we do have a "divine vision" and the vision projects we are to go ahead and have this child, who am I to deny God. God would have his reason's for bringing this child into the world. I would just have to continually pray for my child till the end of my days.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/26/2008 2:28:03 PM
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ta_mosquito
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If I knew for absolute certain a child I would have would go to hell, I would not have that child.
If God commanded me to have the child, I would have it, even knowing it would go to hell, because God told me to have it, even though for some reason He would not be saving that child.
Weird question.
Of course, this is all being said sitting here on my comfy armchair, with no such possibility in sight, so it's easy to say this.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 3:00:45 AM
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abraxas
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I appreciate you guys entertaining my weird question.
MrFribbles
quote:
If we have a divine vision assuring us that our next child is going to hell, do we really have a choice? We know there will be a of ours child going to hell. We've already seen the future. Unless you're suggesting that the divine vision can be changed?
campbe33
quote:
Well, if we do have a "divine vision" and the vision projects we are to go ahead and have this child, who am I to deny God.
These are interesting comments because when people say that free will is an illusion this is the kind of thing they're talking about. If God has perfect knowledge of who goes to hell and who doesn't, do we really have a choice? Who are we to deny God?
But that's best left for later--in the case of this scenario, you only know that your next child will go to hell, not that you will necessarily have one. The next time a friend of mine is stung by a bee, he'll probably die. It doesn't mean that he's certain to be stung a next time, hopefully there is no next time! We can liken this to Jonah and Ninevah--Ninevah's destruction was a contingency, just as your child's damnation is contingent on his being conceived.
ta_mosquito
quote:
If God commanded me to have the child, I would have it, even knowing it would go to hell, because God told me to have it, even though for some reason He would not be saving that child.
Okay, but some people would rather risk their own salvation rather than knowingly bring a soul into life and eventual damnation. I guess that's a matter of faith. However, again I'm not suggesting it was commanded.
Anyway, it is a weird question, and also (in case you didn't see right through it already) a loaded one. If we assume two things about God--
1. He has a perfect knowledge of the future
2. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment
--then isn't that what God has done? If he knows that the next soul he creates ex nihilo will spend eternity in anguish, yet he creates it anyway...well something doesn't seem right with that picture. Why did he go ahead with it?
One argument I've heard is that this world is "the best of all possible worlds," and one out of which the greatest possible number of souls will end up in Heaven. But this is small consolation to the souls who wind up in Hell forever--possibly the majority of all the souls ever created.
Some Christians take different views on the two assumptions I listed.
1. Open theists might say that God didn't have perfect knowledge of the future, and so no one is truly "guaranteed" to end up in Hell.
2a. Annihilationists might say that in this best of all possible worlds, all the players were necessary, including those who didn't make the grade--but in the end they'll be terminated mercifully.
2b. Christian Universalists might say that there will always be a potential for redemption from Hell, and that God intends to win all his souls back eventually.
Those three positions don't seem to be welcomed very warmly by mainstream Christianity, as far as I can tell. But apart from them, how might one understand God creating humans knowing that they'll wind up in eternal agony? Is that line of questioning "off limits" or something?
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 9:03:18 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
But apart from them, how might one understand God creating humans knowing that they'll wind up in eternal agony?
My answer to this is from Scriptures which I don't have the inclination to look up right now, but go something like this:
"Who are you to question God? Can the clay say to the potter, 'why have you made me'?"
and
"The foolishness of God is higher than man's wisdom"
and
"For His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are His ways our ways."
Basically, we cannot fully grasp the mind of God. He has the answer to this question, and His answer is absolutely loving and just and wise. Our puny minds cannot ever comprehend all of God's thoughts and ways and reasonings.
So in other words, to boil it down to one last cliche, we've simply got to have faith that God's ways are the best ways.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 9:42:29 AM
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URForgiven
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Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 10:48:19 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
My answer to this is from Scriptures which I don't have the inclination to look up right now, but go something like this:
"Who are you to question God? Can the clay say to the potter, 'why have you made me'?"
and
"The foolishness of God is higher than man's wisdom"
and
"For His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are His ways our ways."
Basically, we cannot fully grasp the mind of God. He has the answer to this question, and His answer is absolutely loving and just and wise. Our puny minds cannot ever comprehend all of God's thoughts and ways and reasonings.
So in other words, to boil it down to one last cliche, we've simply got to have faith that God's ways are the best ways.
Okay, I appreciate that, but these responses could just as easily respond someone turning a critical eye on the Mormon God, the Watchtower Jehova, or any other God-concept, or even the idea of Allah awarding virgins to valiant Muslims. So are they adequate responses, even if they could be used as a cop-out by any proponent of any far-fetched doctrine?
The potter-clay analogy has never really done it for me as clay lacks certain essential traits to really serve as a parallel. I try to imagine a potter who makes pots capable of feeling love, joy, pain, sorrow, and then torturing them. I can't help that feel that THIS pot, endowed with those traits, is deserving of a better answer than "Who are you to question the potter?" Granted, the pot may have no recourse should the potter choose to continue the torture, but that's not a comment of the rightness of the torture.
Your one last cliche is a good final thought though. Ultimately I think that's a good sentiment. Thanks.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 10:56:31 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
Okay so you know that if you do, that child will spend the rest of eternity in conscious torment.
No child exists --> You choose to have a child --> A child exists --> That soul winds up in Hell. Your choice made all the difference. Huh.
Anyway, enough about the analogy. I'll probably never understand how anyone reconciles this concept--how anyone believes this concept I should say. Maybe I'm from another planet! 
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 12:03:18 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The potter-clay analogy has never really done it for me as clay lacks certain essential traits to really serve as a parallel.
If we are the clay in that analogy, and God is looked at as a person, what do you think that says about how much higher God's ways are compared to ours? It does serve as a parallel, since bringing God down to human level necessitates bringing us humans down to the level of clay.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 12:55:43 PM
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abraxas
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Hi MrFribbles,
Clay is an inanimate substance. That is where the potter-clay metaphor falls short. I understand the analogy and the creator-created relationship, but do you really think God could do whatever he wants with his creation and by merit of his being the creator it'd be right and good?
Let me borrow an idea from the bullfighting thread. What if God created sentient beings for the sole purpose of using them for entertainment, something like a bullfight. God and the hosts of heaven watching human after human maimed and terrorized and finally killed by some minotaur-like creature in an arena...he's the creator, the potter, so why not? Who is the clay to question God?
It's an outlandish example but I honestly don't know if others have some kind of line that they would draw in their "The potter can do as he wishes with the clay" position.
Eternal suffering in Hell is the most heinous concept imaginable. Is it really in God's nature to knowingly bring sentient beings into existence ex nihilo if he has 100% certainty that that is their ultimate fate?
It seems that if a person is to have faith in anything, it would be that God would not do that. But those who do are marginalized by orthodox Christianity, where I see insistance that that is exactly what God does.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 1:30:28 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
Me too.
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Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 1:40:07 PM
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Sophie11
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Abraxas,
I suppose this line of reasoning could then be taken back all the way to the creation of mankind in the first place. If there really is no free will then wouldn't God know that Adam and Eve would fall into sin? Then why create them to begin with?
Or maybe God truly did give us free will, and though he may know our futures he does not control them. Therefore every human born who eventually follows the route to hell is born from the decision of two other human beings to have a child, and not by the decision of God to produce someone only to doom them to hell.
If everyone's future was truly planned out then what would ever have been the purpose of God asking or commanding anything of us? Couldn't he just make us do it, and we would have no free will to choose against him?
You have very good and deep questions, these are only my thoughts on them. What do you think?
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 2:31:05 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
do you really think God could do whatever he wants with his creation and by merit of his being the creator it'd be right and good?
Yes.
quote:
Eternal suffering in Hell is the most heinous concept imaginable.
If it were unjust, I would agree. But God is always just.
quote:
It seems that if a person is to have faith in anything, it would be that God would not do that.
If we want to build our own God, sure. If I got to decide how God was, no babies would go to hell. In fact, everyone would get to go to heaven! The more the merrier, right? But God's view of justice is different than my view of justice, and since He made me, I have to submit and acknowledge that His ways are better than mine.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 6:42:33 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
Perhaps, despite the child's eternal destination, others find Christ because of the life of this person. Somehow, something in the cosmic change of things, changes them.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/27/2008 6:58:05 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
Perhaps, despite the child's eternal destination, others find Christ because of the life of this person. Somehow, something in the cosmic change of things, changes them.
Indeed. When we try to play God, with our limited understanding, we only work against God.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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