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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 2:05:17 AM
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abraxas
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It has been interesting reading through the comments. I know it isn't easy to fully express our take on something like this--for instance a lot of it brings the Euthyphro dilemma--"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"--which leads to plenty of rabbit holes of its own.
I'm going to try and respond to some things and pack it all into this post.
Sophie11:
quote:
I suppose this line of reasoning could then be taken back all the way to the creation of mankind in the first place. If there really is no free will then wouldn't God know that Adam and Eve would fall into sin? Then why create them to begin with?
Basically, yes--but we must keep the notion of "eternal consious torment" in one hand while holding God's perfect future knowledge in the other. Whether there is really free will or not is a sidebar, though as MrFribbles noted, if the future is known, what choice do we have?
quote:
Or maybe God truly did give us free will, and though he may know our futures he does not control them. Therefore every human born who eventually follows the route to hell is born from the decision of two other human beings to have a child, and not by the decision of God to produce someone only to doom them to hell.
As I understand it, two humans produce the physical shell while God produces the soul, which is "born" from the decision of God.
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If everyone's future was truly planned out then what would ever have been the purpose of God asking or commanding anything of us? Couldn't he just make us do it, and we would have no free will to choose against him?
To the first comment, whether "truly planned out" or "perfectly forseen", I can only imagine it would be God playing his role in what he has already seen unfolding. In any regard, where all this is concerned anihilationists and universalists have better answers to the problem of Hell.
URForgiven
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I cannot create life, only God can. My choice is to not murder life that God has created.
Huh? I'm guessing you're talking about abortion? If you think I'm talking about abortion, URMistaken.
MrFribbles:
quote:
quote:
(abraxas): do you really think God could do whatever he wants with his creation and by merit of his being the creator it'd be right and good?
Yes.
I see where you stand on the Euthyphro dilemma. Go minotaur, eh? 
But seriously, I understand that there are some on your side of the dilemma who will simply dismiss some hypotheticals (like my minotaur example or raping babies or something) by saying it simply isn't in God's nature to do just anything we can conceive of with our active imaginations. Aquinas for example.
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(abraxas): Eternal suffering in Hell is the most heinous concept imaginable.
If it were unjust, I would agree. But God is always just.
Another rabbit hole! Some poor soul who lived 15 years in central China is facing uncountable billions upon billions upon billions of years of unimaginable agony is wondering why he was even created in the first place. His unforgiveable sin was being born into a tiny Buddhist farming community and he wants an explanation. According to you God need only say, "Whatever I do is just--I did it, so it's just." Do I have that right?
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If I got to decide how God was, no babies would go to hell. In fact, everyone would get to go to heaven!
That's because instinctively you know otherwise is wrong.
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But God's view of justice is different than my view of justice, and since He made me, I have to submit and acknowledge that His ways are better than mine.
That doesn't logically follow--the creator of this world could be an alien scientist with ego issues. BUT, I understand what you mean. Instinctively I reject the idea of eternal torture with no hope of reprieve. It is heinous because it serves no purpose and can't be correlated to any of our earthly concepts of justice/punishment.
We can't even comprehend infinite time, yet supposedly our choices made with our finite and imperfect minds in a mere speck of time are to be weighed on an eternal scale. 
Memaw:
quote:
Posting blind so I don't know if this has already been said, but let's say the child would be the "anti-christ".
I knew for absolute certainty it would be.
If God let me know this beforehand, I would just have to trust Him on it and go on with His plan of me carrying it and birthing it.
Doesn't mean I would like it or understand it, but if God tells you to do something, ya better do it.
The scenario isn't that God has told you to do it. It's an if-then vision. Was Ninevah destroyed in forty days? No. Would we say that God commanded himself to bring hell-bound souls into existence?
1love1God1way:
quote:
Perhaps, despite the child's eternal destination, others find Christ because of the life of this person. Somehow, something in the cosmic change of things, changes them.
Interesting utilitarian take. You'd go ahead and conceive on this chance?
thanks again for the comments.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 9:07:03 AM
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URForgiven
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Your premise rests on the erroneous belief that man somehow creates life. That it is "our" choice. We neither create the shell nor the soul, we simply have sex. It is God who causes a life to come from that union...or not.
There has only been One born child who was not destined to spend eternity in hell. And if not for His conception we could all say with absolute certainty that the next child we conceived would end up in hell. His conception occurred through the will of God, not in a sexual act. Just because God blesses us with participating in the process, does not mean He is limited to our participation.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 10:14:07 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your premise rests on the erroneous belief that man somehow creates life. That it is "our" choice. We neither create the shell nor the soul, we simply have sex. It is God who causes a life to come from that union...or not.
There has only been One born child who was not destined to spend eternity in hell. And if not for His conception we could all say with absolute certainty that the next child we conceived would end up in hell. His conception occurred through the will of God, not in a sexual act. Just because God blesses us with participating in the process, does not mean He is limited to our participation.
Peace
Excellent post and in full agreement.
_____________________________
Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 10:59:53 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Your premise rests on the erroneous belief that man somehow creates life. That it is "our" choice. We neither create the shell nor the soul, we simply have sex. It is God who causes a life to come from that union...or not.
When a man and a woman have sex, the man's sperm enters the woman and makes its way to the uterus, where the woman's egg is, if she is fertile at the time. If a sperm finds the egg and enters it, the egg is then fertilized.
No sex = no conception. There are other ways to avoid it as well. It doesn't matter if there is some other power at work in the process. As you pointed out yourself, there has only been one conception ever that didn't require this process.
So you are quite wrong that a couple cannot choose whether or not to get pregnant. It's really quite simple.
But anyway......
Probably best to move on from the analogy:
1. Soul A does not exist.
2. In his perfect knowledge of the future, God knows that that soul would eventually end up in Hell for all eternity if it were brought into existence.
3. The choice is God's to create that soul or not.
4. God chooses to create that soul.
5. Why?
General questions for anyone:
Which would you prefer if given the choice--eternity in Hell or to never have existed at all?
Which would you prefer for someone you love?
I know they're a bad set of options. But I'm genuinely curious.
< Message edited by zoebob -- 10/28/2008 11:09:02 AM >
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 11:11:06 AM
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ta_mosquito
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What we PREFER has nothing to do with it. What is REALITY has everything to do with it.
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/28/2008 11:38:25 AM
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abraxas
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What we prefer has no effect on what is reality, I know. I'm not saying it does. "Reality is that which, when we stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Just asking out of curiosity. Which would you prefer if you had the choice?
Yes, it's a -- tough -- choice. 
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/29/2008 12:55:19 AM
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abraxas
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Actually you only know that IF you conceive a child, the child will go to hell.
Still, it's cool to see the different ways the OP question can be tweaked.
Since the idea the OP question is designed to represent is on the table, we might as well see how these alterations apply to it.
One was that if that's the vision of the future, who are we to stop it. So, is God forced by his perfect knowledge of the future to do exactly as that knowledge indicates? Semi-nonsensical question, but do we presume that God could have chosen otherwise or not?
Another was that if God commanded it, who are we to disobey. (Even though I never said it was a commandment.) Did God command himself to create souls that he knew 100% would go to eternal hell?
raivyne and others have questioned the certainty of the vision. Is God's knowledge of the future 100% certain, down to which specific soul will go to heaven and which will go to hell?
At some point we may as well ditch the OP question if we aren't comfortable answering yes or know to how it is posed (i.e. how it most accurately represents God creating souls).
Post 29 would be a good one to look at in that case.
cheers, happy mid-week.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/29/2008 2:46:03 AM
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Bluethread
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The root of the question is who has the right to take a life or make an eturnal judgement. To make this clear we have to look at the situation before conception and after birth.
Before conception we have many examples of people who have chosen to not conceive based in their knowledge of the future. My brother is one. He knew he would die young, so he chose not to have children. Jeremiah had no children because he knew of the exile that was coming.
After birth, would it be acceptable to kill someone that we knew was not going to be in the kingdom. We have a more practical example of this in the Scriptures. When we were studying the execution of the rebellious child, this discussion came up. The question being, would you be a public witness against your own child, if that child were rebellious or would you allow such an one to grow up to be a cruel person? Be advised, it is only parents that can be the witnesses and the witnesses must cast the first stones.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 10:56:04 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
The root of the question is who has the right to take a life or make an eturnal judgement.
Hi Bluethread, I have to disagree here. The root of this question doesn't have to do with taking a life or making an eternal judgement. The root of the question, I suppose, has to do with faith in God, and faith in our own conceptions of goodness.
Getting back from the root, the question is simple: Why in the world would God bring a soul into existence--a soul capable of experiencing pain, misery, fear, as well as love, and joy--even though God knew with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that the fate of that soul would be to suffer unimaginable anguish for an infinite amount of time?
If "faith" is "the substance of things hoped for", I'm struck speechless at how common it is for people to take it on faith that God would create an eternal torture chamber (sorry for the hyperbole--I know it's not exactly a chamber...) and put billions of his created souls into it. Is that what they "hope for"??? 
I'm starting to suspect that there is a secret inner society in Christiandom that doesn't actually believe this, but for reasons I don't get they keep that to themselves. Some bigger picture, greater good understanding perhaps. Just want you to know--I'm onto you guys!
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 12:03:33 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
The root of the question is who has the right to take a life or make an eturnal judgement.
Hi Bluethread, I have to disagree here. The root of this question doesn't have to do with taking a life or making an eternal judgement. The root of the question, I suppose, has to do with faith in God, and faith in our own conceptions of goodness.
Getting back from the root, the question is simple: Why in the world would God bring a soul into existence--a soul capable of experiencing pain, misery, fear, as well as love, and joy--even though God knew with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that the fate of that soul would be to suffer unimaginable anguish for an infinite amount of time?
If "faith" is "the substance of things hoped for", I'm struck speechless at how common it is for people to take it on faith that God would create an eternal torture chamber (sorry for the hyperbole--I know it's not exactly a chamber...) and put billions of his created souls into it. Is that what they "hope for"???
I'm starting to suspect that there is a secret inner society in Christiandom that doesn't actually believe this, but for reasons I don't get they keep that to themselves. Some bigger picture, greater good understanding perhaps. Just want you to know--I'm onto you guys!
Your assumptions have prejudiced your conclusions. God does not put billions of created souls into an eternal torture chamber. They all freely reject life, and as a result remain as they are, dead. Heaven is for the living, as Hell is for the dead.
God freely offers life to all through His Son. Those who do not receive life do so because they have freely rejected it..
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Further you seem to believe that because God sees the choices those He has created will make, that God should not create. That God the Creator should not be Who He is. I would be willing to bet, however, that you are not at all unhappy that He choose to create you.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 12:26:20 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
Your assumptions have prejudiced your conclusions. God does not put billions of created souls into an eternal torture chamber. They all freely reject life, and as a result remain as they are, dead. Heaven is for the living, as Hell is for the dead.
God freely offers life to all through His Son. Those who do not receive life do so because they have freely rejected it..
Well I would turn that back around at you and say it is your assumptions that have prejudiced your conclusions. I don't know what your world has been like but I know I have met a lot of people who seek God and many who believe they have found him but perhaps not to your satisfaction.
That, though is all irrelevent on this thread.
quote:
Further you seem to believe that because God sees the choices those He has created will make, that God should not create.
Just asking why he would if it guaranteed such unimaginable suffering. Did creation per se necessitate such wholescale eternal misery? Seems strange.
quote:
That God the Creator should not be Who He is. Is "who he is" so set in stone that he had no choice in the matter? Is God omnipotent? Does he have free will?
quote:
I would be willing to bet, however, that you are not at all unhappy that He choose to create you.
My life now is a mix of good and bad, if that's what you mean. But if I'm to wind up in Hell because my beliefs--the best I'm able to do in my search--don't pass the test, I suppose I'll let you reconsider your wager in a few billion years. And what if God "lets me in" but I know that billions of others suffer eternal misery? And God knew full well they'd wind up there before they even existed? I'm certain you wouldn't win that bet. Something just seems seriously wrong with the whole picture.
Sorry, I'm just more perplexed about this than maybe anything else.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 9:07:25 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
God freely offers life to all through His Son. Those who do not receive life do so because they have freely rejected it..
So to answer the OP again we already do this. A true believer knows that not all will accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and yet we still have children, knowing full well that they might end up in Hell. A terrible thought, but real.
_____________________________
Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 9:24:22 PM
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Theo-Minor
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Yes, I would have the child. It is God who gives life, and He does so with purpose, not by mistake.
Peace
Okay so you know that if you do, that child will spend the rest of eternity in conscious torment.
No child exists --> You choose to have a child --> A child exists --> That soul winds up in Hell. Your choice made all the difference. Huh.
Anyway, enough about the analogy. I'll probably never understand how anyone reconciles this concept--how anyone believes this concept I should say. Maybe I'm from another planet! 
I would answer it by saying that God told man to be fruitful and multiply. God provides the soul/spirit, but man and woman make the choice and perform the act that conceives the child God puts the spirit into.
Once it lives, it is subject to the same laws as everyone else, which according to Paul can be accessed via our conscience, even if we've never been given the law itself.
They, like all of us, will fail at some point and be condemned.
And the choice to believe or not believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ will be presented to them. They will have a time of visitation, and the Holy Spirit will move them.
Their eternal damnation will be determined by their choice, whether they accept or deny.
In short, God isn't bringing the child into the world. We are. That's why some can even suggest that they would jeopardize their own standing with disobedience, by refusing to have the child.
All God is doing is making the most of the situation. He is not deliberately bringing a damned soul into the world. He's bringing a perfect soul into the world that will fall away, be given every opportunity for salvation, and ultimately condemn themselves by refusing the free gift of salvation. "Here, come to heaven. It's my free gift!" says God, but they respond, "Nahh, that's stupid."
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/30/2008 9:55:57 PM
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Theo-Minor
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
But apart from them, how might one understand God creating humans knowing that they'll wind up in eternal agony?
My answer to this is from Scriptures which I don't have the inclination to look up right now, but go something like this:
"Who are you to question God? Can the clay say to the potter, 'why have you made me'?"
and
"The foolishness of God is higher than man's wisdom"
and
"For His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are His ways our ways."
Basically, we cannot fully grasp the mind of God. He has the answer to this question, and His answer is absolutely loving and just and wise. Our puny minds cannot ever comprehend all of God's thoughts and ways and reasonings.
So in other words, to boil it down to one last cliche, we've simply got to have faith that God's ways are the best ways.
To follow up on this ... I just presented the "hypothetical question" to my wife. We discussed it briefly.
What came up was a simple fact from our own general time period.
What woman in her right mind would want to claim Hitler as their child? He was a wicked man who did wicked things. He is most certainly in hell (and I don't personally care if he "accepted the Lord," proverbially speaking, on his death bed. He would still be in hell as far as I'm concerned).
If THAT was the child of whom you had a divine revelation, the natural impulse is to avoid something so horrible as the holocaust by not having such a monster of a child. Hitler is the poster child for the hypothetical question.
Yet ... if Hitler had not existed and the holocaust had been averted because he was never born, today there would be no nation of Israel. The scattered Jews throughout Europe, who had no place to go and were hated in almost every country, were put there following the holocaust, despite the objections raised by the surrounding Islamic nations. They were unified as a people, given back their national identity, and returned to the promised land ... whereas before the holocaust, they lived diversely throughout Europe, had no plans or intentions of reuniting as a collective nation, or of going back to Israel. It took the horror of the holocaust to see it done. The Jews wouldn't have done it if not for their situation. The world wouldn't have stood for them uniting and invading the land that became Israel.
It just wouldn't have happened without what did happen. All because Hitler was born, who was most assuredly clay in the potter's hand, being molded to suit God's purpose ... to bring the Jews home.
God also used Egyptian slavery to inpire the Jews to the Exodus. He used Roman oppression to usher in the Messiah in a social climate that was sure to see him killed. He used Roman barbarity and persecution to establish his church on the blood of martyrs. He used inquisitions, greed, corruption, witch trials, and other atrocities to bring about the Protestant Reformation.
God's ways simply are not our ways.
So I would have to agree with what ta_mosquito said and/or quoted. We can see the truth of it in scripture, and in our modern reality.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/31/2008 2:10:07 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
God freely offers life to all through His Son. Those who do not receive life do so because they have freely rejected it..
So to answer the OP again we already do this. A true believer knows that not all will accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and yet we still have children, knowing full well that they might end up in Hell. A terrible thought, but real.
(emphasis mine)
Not quite the same as knowing full well that they would end up in Hell. I imagine there's quite a bit of hope and faith that it wouldn't happen. And that there are things parents can do to help improve the odds. (Like, not send your kids to a Muslim boarding school in Pakistan...  ) Still, that is an interesting thought.
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/31/2008 3:01:31 AM
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abraxas
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Hi theo, I'm going to respond to both your posts in one. In discussions like this I quickly find myself surrounded by rabbit holes! Perhaps the same goes for you when you read my comments. We're all working off so many assumptions and the rabbit holes pop up when those assumptions are not mutually accepted. Anyway...
quote:
I would answer it by saying that God told man to be fruitful and multiply. God provides the soul/spirit, but man and woman make the choice and perform the act that conceives the child God puts the spirit into.
Then again a female human has like 300 eggs in her ovaries, and of course no woman is expected to be that fruitful!
quote:
They, like all of us, will fail at some point and be condemned.
Rabbit hole #185: Was this according to God's plan? Did God set us up to fail?
quote:
In short, God isn't bringing the child into the world. We are. That's why some can even suggest that they would jeopardize their own standing with disobedience, by refusing to have the child.
In this scenario it isn't necessary to presume that having the child is an "order". In fact, as an analogy it's best to presume that it is not a commandment, unless we presume that God created souls ex nihilo because he was commanded to. (see post 33)
quote:
He is not deliberately bringing a damned soul into the world. He's bringing a perfect soul into the world that will fall away, be given every opportunity for salvation, and ultimately condemn themselves by refusing the free gift of salvation.
Do you believe God has and has always had perfect knowledge of the future? If so I think you should rethink what you just wrote.
quote:
"Here, come to heaven. It's my free gift!" says God, but they respond, "Nahh, that's stupid."
Rabbit hole numbers 34 and 78: the voluntarism/involuntarism debate has been giving people something to talk about for hundreds of years. And can a person be Christian but still respect other people's beliefs? I know quite a few who claim to, but maybe inside they're thinking, "That's stupid." Perhaps there are people devoted to God in their own (let's presume) erroneous way, without saying your beliefs are stupid.
I was also thinking about the utilitarian aspects of this, after 1God1love1way's post. But I was thinking in terms of Judas. Both illustrate what you are saying, that they were "most assuredly clay in the potter's hand, being molded to suit God's purpose."
So God has a need for a human player in his grand scheme, brings a soul into existence and plants it where he does, knowing that human will develop into what God wants him/her to, and help God accomplish some important purpose or other, and then God casts the person into Hell for all eternity? That sounds like entrapment. They became exactly what God wanted them to become, exactly what he set them up to become, and then they spend time without end in unspeakable agony?
I just wonder if you can see how a person might reasonably reject this notion, even if you accept it.
quote:
God's ways simply are not our ways.
I think a lot of people can agree on this in principle, while not agreeing in what it entails, or what limits it has. Is it possible that God, in his infinite wisdom, deceives his creation as he sees fit? Is it possible that God is the mastermind of not only Christianity, but also Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, and Scientology? How far "God's ways simply are not our ways" can be taken will probably vary from person to person.
Anyway I've used up my lunch break and I'm cutting into my prep time -- i.e. I should be staring into space now!
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/31/2008 7:07:42 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8860
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Excellent excellent point Maggie
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/31/2008 7:19:28 AM
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Theo-Minor
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From: Greenville, SC
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quote:
Rabbit hole #185: Was this according to God's plan? Did God set us up to fail?
The lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. I would think that he did, in fact, expect us to fail, though this is not necessarily suggesting that he made us fail. I've always personally believed that anyone could keep the whole law. The problem is that no one ever did but Jesus Christ. But either way, the lamb was already slain before Adam ever fell, so to a degree, it was according to God's plan, but my personal opinion is that God did not set us up to fail. It was incidental. But God, knowing what would happen (not what he would make happen), set up the contingency for what would happen.
quote:
In this scenario it isn't necessary to presume that having the child is an "order". In fact, as an analogy it's best to presume that it is not a commandment, unless we presume that God created souls ex nihilo because he was commanded to. (see post 33)
Understood and agreed. It wasn't a "command" in your hypothetical scenario. However, some had commented that if it were a commandment, they would obey, etc., and you had answered to that.
quote:
Do you believe God has and has always had perfect knowledge of the future? If so I think you should rethink what you just wrote.
I did, and still agree with what I wrote. God may know the eventual outcome, but the soul is not damned from its creation. It damns itself. So God is not deliberately bringing a damned soul into the world. In fact, God gives that condemned person every opportunity to come back and be saved.
quote:
Rabbit hole numbers 34 and 78: the voluntarism/involuntarism debate has been giving people something to talk about for hundreds of years. And can a person be Christian but still respect other people's beliefs? I know quite a few who claim to, but maybe inside they're thinking, "That's stupid." Perhaps there are people devoted to God in their own (let's presume) erroneous way, without saying your beliefs are stupid.
I was also thinking about the utilitarian aspects of this, after 1God1love1way's post. But I was thinking in terms of Judas. Both illustrate what you are saying, that they were "most assuredly clay in the potter's hand, being molded to suit God's purpose."
So God has a need for a human player in his grand scheme, brings a soul into existence and plants it where he does, knowing that human will develop into what God wants him/her to, and help God accomplish some important purpose or other, and then God casts the person into Hell for all eternity? That sounds like entrapment. They became exactly what God wanted them to become, exactly what he set them up to become, and then they spend time without end in unspeakable agony?
I just wonder if you can see how a person might reasonably reject this notion, even if you accept it.
Actually, I am of the opinion that God uses the wicked who have repeatedly rejected him to accomplish the tasks he wants accomplished. I do not believe that God makes people into wicked people. He makes them good, they go astray, he tries to bring them back, and they reject him and continue with their wickedness. When their wickedness has gone far enough, God uses it to accomplish his goals.
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I think a lot of people can agree on this in principle, while not agreeing in what it entails, or what limits it has. Is it possible that God, in his infinite wisdom, deceives his creation as he sees fit? Is it possible that God is the mastermind of not only Christianity, but also Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, and Scientology? How far "God's ways simply are not our ways" can be taken will probably vary from person to person.
I would say that God does, in fact, "blind the minds." He doesn't lie to people, but he does hide the truth from them in plain sight. That's scriptural.
God is the mastermind of Christianity. Again, the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. Whether or not he masterminded the other religions, I couldn't say. Personally, it is my opinion that he did not. I think Satan is responsible for those.
But then again ... God's ways are not my ways. Who knows what he did, or why.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: hypothetical Q - 10/31/2008 8:14:47 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 332
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I did, and still agree with what I wrote. God may know the eventual outcome, but the soul is not damned from its creation. It damns itself. So God is not deliberately bringing a damned soul into the world. In fact, God gives that condemned person every opportunity to come back and be saved. (emph mine)
I can't help seeing this as a moot point. He is as good as damned from creation, isn't he? God could give the guy a billion opportunities to come back and be saved, but of course God knows it won't do any good. He was created without ANY chance, seeing as God knew he didn't REALLY have a chance.
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Actually, I am of the opinion that God uses the wicked who have repeatedly rejected him to accomplish the tasks he wants accomplished. I do not believe that God makes people into wicked people. He makes them good, they go astray, he tries to bring them back, and they reject him and continue with their wickedness. When their wickedness has gone far enough, God uses it to accomplish his goals.
In the examples we've both brought up, their wickedness was necessary for the manner in which they were useful to God. This was part of the plan from the start, unless you believe that God is improvising as things change. What does it even mean for God, knowing exactly how it's going to play out, to "try to bring them back"? That reallllly stretches the meaning of the word "try". You and I can "try" to do a lot of things--it means we think there's a chance we could do them.
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But then again ... God's ways are not my ways. Who knows what he did, or why.
Yeah, I suppose no one does. Well the whole discussion has got me reading up on the Euthyphro dilemma which I've been quite enjoying. I haven't ruled out the possibility that there is, somehow in all of this, still a deus ex machina!
thanks and take care.
abraxas
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