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House of Israel - 10/27/2008 11:04:52 AM
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bob97
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I have a question of interest regarding the lost 10 tribes of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31 tells us that in the last days God will conclude the new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
It would be my understanding that present day Israel’s population would mainly consist of the house of Judah and that the house of Israel has been dispersed into the world and vanished so to speak.
In doing research regarding the lost ten tribes it seems they have truly disappeared. Although many haves theories regarding where they disappeared to it is obvious that no one knows for sure (except God).
Without doubt and for the most part, through marriage and interbreeding the purity of those tribes has disappeared into the masses of the gentile nations and as promised to Abraham, “made him a father of many nations”.
My question is this; when the new covenant is concluded with the house of Israel, will it be with those millions of people who have a trace of ten tribe blood within their bodies?
Any thoughts?
Bob
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 11:32:44 AM
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mcleod
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Yes, this too has made me wonder on that subject. Where did they go?
Of course you could take the line what calvinist believe that those who are chosen are from the seed of the lost tribe. Or you take that which Armstrong took, and that of England and United States were of the lost tribes. That Queen of England was from the line of David.
Stretching it as they haved, would be like the RCC's saying that their line of popes can make all the way back to Peter.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 12:11:58 PM
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Chapmon
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quote:
Of course you could take the line what calvinist believe that those who are chosen are from the seed of the lost tribe.
Having been a Calvinist for 30+ years, I can say unequivocally that I have never read or heard this doctrine one time. Do you have some kind of source material you're pulling from or is this something off the top of your head? The Reformed view of the so-called "lost" tribes is that they are lost.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 12:34:31 PM
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LCannon
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This new covenant(as opposed to the post-Pentecost church specifically although we can consider that in the short term before the church is taken up)is going to be different from the one given to Moses at Mount Sinai. The grand distinction is that it will be engraved upon the hearts of the people and not upon cold tables of stone. The 'lost 10 tribes' can be considered the 'nation'(though Israel was never a nation; the nation, Judea is the Jehovah's chosen race; the total 12)of apostasy.
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"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 12:56:35 PM
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Lapidoth
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Bob, that is a big question.
I fear there is no answer.
I've read book after book on the subject and the best
I can see is just conjecture on the author's part.
Many use scripture, but it seems to be like everyone
else that takes a verse here and a verse there and
builds a doctrine out of it. I've researched many
Jewish and Messianic sites and still don't have a clue. lol.
Right at this time, I can only see two tribes after the Resurrection.
The "Born again, saved" tribe, and the "all the rest, without God" tribe.
But, that doesn't answer the question you pose.
Again, I've studied it deep enough to conclude that so far everyone is wrong. LOL.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 1:52:36 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
This new covenant(as opposed to the post-Pentecost church specifically although we can consider that in the short term before the church is taken up)is going to be different from the one given to Moses at Mount Sinai. The grand distinction is that it will be engraved upon the hearts of the people and not upon cold tables of stone. The 'lost 10 tribes' can be considered the 'nation'(though Israel was never a nation; the nation, Judea is the Jehovah's chosen race; the total 12)of apostasy.
The "new" covenant is part of the "old" covenant (Deut 30:11-14) "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, 'Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, 'Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 2:07:24 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I have a question of interest regarding the lost 10 tribes of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31 tells us that in the last days God will conclude the new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
It would be my understanding that present day Israel’s population would mainly consist of the house of Judah and that the house of Israel has been dispersed into the world and vanished so to speak.
In doing research regarding the lost ten tribes it seems they have truly disappeared. Although many haves theories regarding where they disappeared to it is obvious that no one knows for sure (except God).
Without doubt and for the most part, through marriage and interbreeding the purity of those tribes has disappeared into the masses of the gentile nations and as promised to Abraham, “made him a father of many nations”.
My question is this; when the new covenant is concluded with the house of Israel, will it be with those millions of people who have a trace of ten tribe blood within their bodies?
Any thoughts?
Bob
My thought is that your premise is off, so any conclusions you come up with will also be off.
Peace
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are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 2:28:51 PM
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bob97
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quote:
My thought is that your premise is off, so any conclusions you come up with will also be off.
Well don't just leave us hanging UR...how is it off?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 2:40:06 PM
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LCannon
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quote:
The "new" covenant is part of the "old" covenant
...and, that's precisely Jeremiah's point; a nation of obedience isn't based on heritage in the physical sense but of the heart/obedience/mind in agreement the mind of God. Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 10/27/2008 6:07:55 PM >
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 2:57:26 PM
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bob97
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quote:
..and, that's precisely Jeremiah's point; a nation of obedience isn't not based on heritage in the physical sense but of the heart/obedience/mind in agreement the mind of God. Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear.
I hear what you are saying LC but wasn't the birthright that Esau sold the heritage to be a chosen child of God by the line of Isaac?
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 3:19:48 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I have a question of interest regarding the lost 10 tribes of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31 tells us that in the last days God will conclude the new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
My question is this; when the new covenant is concluded with the house of Israel, will it be with those millions of people who have a trace of ten tribe blood within their bodies? "Conclude" a covenant? Strange wording. MAKE a new covenant.
Be careful with this line of thinking. While this covenant is started with Israel and Judah, it is expanded to include the gentiles as well. Isaiah talks about the inclusion of gentiles as does Jesus. Trying to figure out who is the house of Israel has given rise to at least one cult group that believes that in order to be saved under the New Covenant you must be a physical decendant of Jacob.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 4:28:22 PM
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rcjames
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Well it seems simple to this ole boy; Israel (Jacob) (being the father of Judah and others) that his children would include all decendents of his which would include the decendents of Judah.
Yes there was a new covenant set fort by God for all of Jocob's decendents (Including the decendants of Judah, and all others in the world; read whosoever will), and that covenant is in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and no one (not the decends of Judah or anyone elce), will come to the Father except by Jesus since that covenant was made a couple of thousand years ago.
Thanks
RC
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 7:44:30 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Well it seems simple to this ole boy; Israel (Jacob) (being the father of Judah and others) that his children would include all decendents of his which would include the decendents of Judah.
Yes there was a new covenant set fort by God for all of Jocob's decendents (Including the decendants of Judah, and all others in the world; read whosoever will), and that covenant is in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and no one (not the decends of Judah or anyone elce), will come to the Father except by Jesus since that covenant was made a couple of thousand years ago.
Thanks
RC
I would say more like 5300 years ago or longer depending on how one calculates. Some of the most important details became clear some 2000 years ago.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: House of Israel - 10/27/2008 8:04:28 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Strange...does anyone think that the new covenant that God said He would make with Israel and Judah has been ratified or is this something that occurs at the end of the last week?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
With out a doubt all of those accepting Christ or believing in faith such as Abraham have been saved under the covering of the new covenant but that does not account for unbelieving decedents of Israel.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: House of Israel - 10/28/2008 11:21:39 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
Having been a Calvinist for 30+ years, I can say unequivocally that I have never read or heard this doctrine one time. Do you have some kind of source material you're pulling from or is this something off the top of your head? The Reformed view of the so-called "lost" tribes is that they are lost.
Glad to hear you have been a Calvinist for thirty years. I been a follower of Jesus Christ for fourty- seven years.
I listen to when they would do a baby's baptism. They believe in what Paul writings in Romans where Paul writes this in ch 9 beginning in verse 6. that they have become the new Israel in that they are the spiritual Israel and what is to happen to the physical Israel is no longer needed. That God has no future for the middle east Israel.
Again where does it say that Israel has no more future in scriptures? When Bob brings up the verse that God does saying some thing to the opposite.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/28/2008 11:40:07 AM
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mcleod
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Bob,
quote:
Strange...does anyone think that the new covenant that God said He would make with Israel and Judah has been ratified or is this something that occurs at the end of the last week?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
With out a doubt all of those accepting Christ or believing in faith such as Abraham have been saved under the covering of the new covenant but that does not account for unbelieving decedents of Israel.
I believe it has been already ratified. When the veil was riped in two at the time of the cross.
I would have it that if you would have gone a little farther in the text of Rom.. You would have seen they are enemies on the account of the gentiles. But are loved because of the patrirches for it Paul writes that God's gifts are unable to be revoked.
Which means God has a story in which to finish with Israel. As I would understand it to be.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/29/2008 7:04:59 PM
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JStucki76
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The prophets, especially Ezekiel, are clear that the lost tribes will return; that restoration, and redemption will extend even to them, who were thought lost. Exactly who they all are remains a mystery to us, but that's not terribly important. What's important is that God knows. I'm pretty sure he does.
FYI, there is a contigent of orthodox Jews in Israel currently trying to find the lost tribes. They believe they have in fact found a couple pockets of them in Ethiopia, India, and Japan, if memory serves. They found people who have been following Jewish custom for generations without knowing why. It's pretty interesting.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/29/2008 7:36:48 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JStucki76
FYI, there is a contigent of orthodox Jews in Israel currently trying to find the lost tribes. They believe they have in fact found a couple pockets of them in Ethiopia, India, and Japan, if memory serves. They found people who have been following Jewish custom for generations without knowing why. It's pretty interesting.
With all of the silly socialogical stuff "NatGeo" looks into, a documentory on this might actually be something interesting to watch.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: House of Israel - 10/29/2008 11:43:49 PM
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bob97
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Hi mcleod...
quote:
I believe it has been already ratified.
What would lead you to believe that God by means of the Holy Spirit has conveyed His new covenant to the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
Has he brought these houses back and written His laws in their inward parts? Do they know Him and do they have an intimate relationship with Him? Is He their God and are they His people? Do they know the Lord from the least to the greatest? Has He forgiven them of their sins and do they currently sin no more?
Has the Lord erased the idol and false prophets from the land as stated in Zec 13:2? Have two thirds of the people been cut off and one third refined by fire and made pure as per Zec 13:8?
No…I think this event is still in the future.
Now I agree that the gentiles and those saved by faith are saved under the terms of the new covenant but it has not been ratified with Israel as promised yet.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 1:45:48 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
My question is this; when the new covenant is concluded with the house of Israel, will it be with those millions of people who have a trace of ten tribe blood within their bodies?
The ten lost tribes were never too far away from Israel. They were dispersed into what is now Iraq, Iran and the adjoining nations of the Middle East. Some may even be among the Palestinians who reside within and beside Israel. Therefore they will also be gathered out from among these nations when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom on this earth.
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 2:15:48 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
My question is this; when the new covenant is concluded with the house of Israel, will it be with those millions of people who have a trace of ten tribe blood within their bodies?
The ten lost tribes were never too far away from Israel. They were dispersed into what is now Iraq, Iran and the adjoining nations of the Middle East. Some may even be among the Palestinians who reside within and beside Israel. Therefore they will also be gathered out from among these nations when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom on this earth.
So there is another way to the Father besides the Son??
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 2:29:01 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
So there is another way to the Father besides the Son??
Nothing in my post could be construed as hinting such a thing. There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son.
The fact is that God has a plan for the redeemed and restored twelve tribes of Israel in the Millenium and beyond.
How it will all work out only God knows, but the descendants of the 10 lost tribes will be restored to Israel, and each tribe will have it's portion of the land of Israel. That's a certainty.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 2:42:17 PM
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bob97
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Amen Ezra...
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 6:00:17 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
So there is another way to the Father besides the Son??
Nothing in my post could be construed as hinting such a thing. There is only one way to the Father and that is through the Son.
The fact is that God has a plan for the redeemed and restored twelve tribes of Israel in the Millenium and beyond.
How it will all work out only God knows, but the descendants of the 10 lost tribes will be restored to Israel, and each tribe will have it's portion of the land of Israel. That's a certainty.
Would that include the decendents that have lived and died before the millenuum; like those of today?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: House of Israel - 10/30/2008 7:00:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2016
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quote:
Would that include the decendents that have lived and died before the millenuum;
RC...I've struggled with that issue, let me ask you a question; what is the meaning of the statement in Heb 12:16 when it says Esau traded his birthright? What birthright did he trade? Was it to be the chosen decedent of Issac?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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