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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:18:35 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2495
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
Regarding love for the sinner, how about John 3:16:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
There are many more examples (i.e. verses) in the Gospel where Jesus showed love for the sinner. God's hate for sin is also clearly Biblical. Does it really matter whether the two appear in the same verse or the context of the entire Bible? What matters, surely, is that the 'cliche' is Biblical.
Greetings
quote:
Regarding love for the sinner, how about John 3:16:
How about it?
.......that whoever "believes in him"...shall not perish... "but"... have eternal life."
The Bible says...actually Jesus said... I am the life"
SHOW us those sinners who voted for Obama that can make that claim that they "believe in him" ….and then explain what that… has to do with this.
quote:
There are many more examples (i.e. verses ) in the Gospel where Jesus showed love for the sinner.
That is what is commonly called a major contradiction... because if a believer in life suggests the opposite, there will be consequence
Lu 19:26 - Show Context
"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing.........even what he has will be taken away.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:22:15 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Not true... You OWN words convict you... I have to admit I am stunned you'd deny you very words... Quoted verbatim... You said it was a VERSE. And only YOU believe it doesn't mean a verse from the bible... Of course if you can find a way to you the word verse in another context be my guest... So... What did you mean by verse? Poem? Typo? What?
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
It's just a saying or verse I never said it was from the bible or scripture, so how do my words convict me??? Believe it or not your not the only one who knows the bible. I don't know what you mean by I'm the only one who believes it doesn't mean a bible verse. Oh course I don't. "By claiming I'm the only one", are claiming to have taken a poll of everyone??? Now your words will convict you.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:33:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
There are many more examples (i.e. verses) in the Gospel where Jesus showed love for the sinner. God's hate for sin is also clearly Biblical. Does it really matter whether the two appear in the same verse or the context of the entire Bible? What matters, surely, is that the 'cliche' is Biblical.
It's not a verse as campbe33 said...
quote:
Yes, perfectly sure. God didn't sacrifice His only son out of his hatred for sinners, but as a result of his love for sinners. As RamiRedeemed correctly pointed out above, Romans 5:8 states:
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Now play "US" into equating to everyone...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:34:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
and while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us... *gasp*
US being whom?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:41:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
It's just a saying or verse I never said it was from the bible or scripture, so how do my words convict me???
Ah... So when people mention verse on a Christian forum it just means saying or verse, not a verse from the bible... Sure thing... How deep you going to dig this hole?
quote:
Believe it or not your not the only one who knows the bible.
I know, love the sinner, hate the sin is not a verse in the bible as you claimed...
quote:
I don't know what you mean by I'm the only one who believes it doesn't mean a bible verse.
You are the only one who believes it's verse in the bible... At least so far...
quote:
Oh course I don't. "By claiming I'm the only one", are claiming to have taken a poll of everyone???
I am assuming nobody else is going to claim it's verse in the bible like you did and now deny...
quote:
Now your words will convict you.
Nope... I have the truth on my side...
You said it was a verse ... Post 302 in this thread...
Once again, your words... verbatim...
Again...
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:41:33 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
There are many more examples (i.e. verses) in the Gospel where Jesus showed love for the sinner. God's hate for sin is also clearly Biblical. Does it really matter whether the two appear in the same verse or the context of the entire Bible? What matters, surely, is that the 'cliche' is Biblical.
It's not a verse as campbe33 said...
quote:
Yes, perfectly sure. God didn't sacrifice His only son out of his hatred for sinners, but as a result of his love for sinners. As RamiRedeemed correctly pointed out above, Romans 5:8 states:
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Now play "US" into equating to everyone...
I never said it was a verse from the bible or scripture, but for some reason SovereignisHe wants me to say that's what I meant. So who's us?
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:44:59 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
and while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us... *gasp*
US being whom?
"Us", being the body of believers, who also happen to be sinners, since only Jesus is without sin. You seem to be arguing that God only loves Christians, but hates the non-believer? Is that correct?
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:46:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
I never said it was a verse from the bible or scripture, but for some reason SovereignisHe wants me to say that's what I meant. So who's us?
It's exactly what you said...
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
quote:
So who's us?
Those who believe on Him... Paul isn't speaking of mankind...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:48:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
and while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us... *gasp*
US being whom?
"Us", being the body of believers, who also happen to be sinners, since only Jesus is without sin. You seem to be arguing that God only loves Christians, but hates the non-believer? Is that correct?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Is Paul speaking of mankind in Romans 5 when is pens US? No... Is "love the sinner, hate the sin" a verse in the bible? No...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:51:54 PM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 2628
Joined: 10/13/2008
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We must serve different gods John, because I know that my God loves sinners.
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:55:34 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
and while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us... *gasp*
US being whom?
"Us", being the body of believers, who also happen to be sinners, since only Jesus is without sin. You seem to be arguing that God only loves Christians, but hates the non-believer? Is that correct?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Is Paul speaking of mankind in Romans 5 when is pens US? No... Is "love the sinner, hate the sin" a verse in the bible? No...
No, I believe that in Romans 5, Paul is referring to the body of believers. But John 3:16 is referring to mankind (emphasis mine):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:56:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
We must serve different gods John, because I know that my God loves sinners.
I know that Paul isn't referring to mankind in the very verse you spoke of when he writes US... If you believe we serve different gods you as well recant the verse you brought to the table... Paul is speaking of the Body of Christ, not mankind..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:56:16 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
I never said it was a verse from the bible or scripture, but for some reason SovereignisHe wants me to say that's what I meant. So who's us?
It's exactly what you said...
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
quote:
So who's us?
Those who believe on Him... Paul isn't speaking of mankind...
So, show me directly where I claimed that verse was a verse in the bible??? You cannot. Did I say it was a verse in the bible? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! You made the claim "And only YOU believe it doesn't mean a verse from the bible" So, you told a lie, everyone else besides me doesn't doesn't believe it meant a verse from the bible. Do you always resort to lying if you don't get your way???
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 10:59:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
I never said it was a verse from the bible or scripture, but for some reason SovereignisHe wants me to say that's what I meant. So who's us?
It's exactly what you said...
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
quote:
So who's us?
Those who believe on Him... Paul isn't speaking of mankind...
So, show me directly where I claimed that verse was a verse in the bible??? You cannot. Did I say it was a verse in the bible? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! You made the claim "And only YOU believe it doesn't mean a verse from the bible" So, you told a lie, everyone else besides me doesn't doesn't believe it meant a verse from the bible. Do you always resort to lying if you don't get your way???
That fact that it's NOT verse in the bible says I am not a liar...
And the fact you said it was a verse lays it at your feet...
Your words... Direct quote...
You said: What happen to love the sinner, hate the sin?
I replied:What does that cliche have to do with you supporting homosexuality?
You replied:I am glad it's so easy for you to take that VERSE so lightly. I don't support the sexual aspect of homosexual relationships, but as human beings they have rights too.
Anyone with a clear mind would agree that where YOU say verse you are referring to the bible... Case closed...
I will stand behind what I posted... I don't have to claim my word means something to cover my tracks...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 11:09:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
and while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us... *gasp*
US being whom?
"Us", being the body of believers, who also happen to be sinners, since only Jesus is without sin. You seem to be arguing that God only loves Christians, but hates the non-believer? Is that correct?
Cheers,
Clayton.
Is Paul speaking of mankind in Romans 5 when is pens US? No... Is "love the sinner, hate the sin" a verse in the bible? No...
No, I believe that in Romans 5, Paul is referring to the body of believers. But John 3:16 is referring to mankind (emphasis mine):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
If John 3:16 means what you say it does, why does Paul speak of the body of believers and not everyone? Why the verses that speak of Christ laying His life down for His sheep?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 11:11:14 PM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 2628
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
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Looks like the "evangelicals for Obama" have gotten their way!!! YAY!!
Sorry John. Ha.
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 11:17:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
Looks like the "evangelicals for Obama" have gotten their way!!! YAY!!
Sorry John. Ha.
They have their unjust ruler... Yay for them... They deserve him...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 11:34:42 PM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If John 3:16 means what you say it does, why does Paul speak of the body of believers and not everyone? Why the verses that speak of Christ laying His life down for His sheep?
Paul was writing to believers, emphasising that our salvation through Christ is not a result of our own righteousness. Adding the verses before the one previously quoted for context, Romans 6:7-8 (NIV) reads: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us". Since non-believers have no salvation, this concept is meaningless to them. The fact that only believers are saved, however, doesn't negate the fact that God loved the world as stated in John 3:16.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/4/2008 11:43:42 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clayton994
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If John 3:16 means what you say it does, why does Paul speak of the body of believers and not everyone? Why the verses that speak of Christ laying His life down for His sheep?
Paul was writing to believers, emphasising that our salvation through Christ is not a result of our own righteousness. Adding the verses before the one previously quoted for context, Romans 6:7-8 (NIV) reads: "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us". Since non-believers have no salvation, this concept is meaningless to them. The fact that only believers are saved, however, doesn't negate the fact that God loved the world as stated in John 3:16.
Nor does John 3:16 negate the verses in Psalms and the fact that God didn't love Esau...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/5/2008 12:03:48 AM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 2628
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
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I know enough about God to know that His character is love and He never acts out of character.
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/5/2008 12:06:09 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RamiRedeemed
I know enough about God to know that His character is love and He never acts out of character.
Nice soundbite...
That doesn't explain the vast difference in treatment of two brothers, one loved, and the other not...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/5/2008 12:24:48 AM
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tenfour
Posts: 84
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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There are a few of bad assumptions being made here that have led to the reprehensible conclusion that anyone who voted for Obama is unsaved...
1. That if something is a sin, God requires us to vote for our government to outlaw it outright (or we are unsaved!!)
2. That one of the two candidates is aligned wholeheartedly with God's will, so there is one and only one righteous way to vote.
3. That making something illegal is always the absolute best way to prevent a sin from being commited.
4. That voting for a candidate means that you agree with everything they stand for.
Here is my rebuttal...
1. Laws don't prevent sins from happening. I don't believe God necessarily demands that all the governments of the world make every sin illegal. Jesus certainly had some words for the Pharisees, who did that very thing. Certainly, we need laws that protect people from one another. Beyond that, we can hope for laws that make life easier for us. But I don't think it is a sin to permit the legality of some sins. It certainly won't stop people from sinning. Taken to the extreme, it is sinful to reject Jesus. So should we vote exclusively for candidates that make it illegal to not be a Christian?
2. I can guarantee you both candidates are sinners. If one of them was aligned wholeheartedly with God's will, he would be Jesus.
3. Making something illegal doesn't make it stop completely. For every sin in our culture, making it illegal is only (possibly) one piece of the total package required to reduce the number of people commiting it. The general public will stop commiting a sin as much when the culture shifts. Yes, laws can effect this, but so can other measures.
4. Since all men are sinful, we will always be voting for the lesser of two evils. I voted for Obama today, but I find some of his beliefs and stances reprehensible. But I feel the same way about McCain. It was a close call for me, but I felt that the balance of good and bad that would come upon the world tilted in favor of Obama. And I know I might be wrong.
Here's an example... The abortion rate declined in America throughout Clinton's presidency, as well as Bush's. So how much did either president's view on the subject actually affect the number of abortions happening? Apparently not very much. But if we had a much less hawkish president eight years ago, thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis would not be dead right now.
Ultimately, I feel that everyone needs to take a step back and realize that voting is not the best way each of us can impact our society for the better. We need to be working in our personal lives and through our churches to affect our communities in a way that will result in a more holy culture. I believe the President of the United States has a very small effect on how righteous the average American will be.
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/5/2008 12:28:12 AM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 2628
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tenfour
There are a few of bad assumptions being made here that have led to the reprehensible conclusion that anyone who voted for Obama is unsaved...
1. That if something is a sin, God requires us to vote for our government to outlaw it outright (or we are unsaved!!)
2. That one of the two candidates is aligned wholeheartedly with God's will, so there is one and only one righteous way to vote.
3. That making something illegal is always the absolute best way to prevent a sin from being commited.
4. That voting for a candidate means that you agree with everything they stand for.
Here is my rebuttal...
1. Laws don't prevent sins from happening. I don't believe God necessarily demands that all the governments of the world make every sin illegal. Jesus certainly had some words for the Pharisees, who did that very thing. Certainly, we need laws that protect people from one another. Beyond that, we can hope for laws that make life easier for us. But I don't think it is a sin to permit the legality of some sins. It certainly won't stop people from sinning. Taken to the extreme, it is sinful to reject Jesus. So should we vote exclusively for candidates that make it illegal to not be a Christian?
2. I can guarantee you both candidates are sinners. If one of them was aligned wholeheartedly with God's will, he would be Jesus.
3. Making something illegal doesn't make it stop completely. For every sin in our culture, making it illegal is only (possibly) one piece of the total package required to reduce the number of people commiting it. The general public will stop commiting a sin as much when the culture shifts. Yes, laws can effect this, but so can other measures.
4. Since all men are sinful, we will always be voting for the lesser of two evils. I voted for Obama today, but I find some of his beliefs and stances reprehensible. But I feel the same way about McCain. It was a close call for me, but I felt that the balance of good and bad that would come upon the world tilted in favor of Obama. And I know I might be wrong.
Here's an example... The abortion rate declined in America throughout Clinton's presidency, as well as Bush's. So how much did either president's view on the subject actually affect the number of abortions happening? Apparently not very much. But if we had a much less hawkish president eight years ago, thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis would not be dead right now.
Ultimately, I feel that everyone needs to take a step back and realize that voting is not the best way each of us can impact our society for the better. We need to be working in our personal lives and through our churches to affect our communities in a way that will result in a more holy culture. I believe the President of the United States has a very small effect on how righteous the average American will be.
AMEN!
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: Evangelicals For Obama, How Could that Be? - 11/5/2008 12:31:40 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 513
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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RamiRedeemed
quote:
We must serve different gods John, because I know that my God loves sinners.
Ugh..read Psalm 5:5.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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