|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/9/2008 12:07:21 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
How can one separate political and spiritual matters? How many masters can one have?
John, I'm going to drive to church soon down an interstate going 65mph. How spiritual really are the laws that pertain to traffic codes, speed limits, highway funding money? Perhaps on the cash to be good stewards with it but honestly how spiritual are those types of laws?
To take it a step further that highway was one of the early ones in my state with 2 nasty cloverleaf type exchanges and they need changed. They're expensive to maintain and difficult to navigate through. Redoing those is smart. Am I really a compromising sinner when if I was a politician and a christian one at that if I worked with some pro choice, homosexual transgender philanderer on efforts to get that project done? If the answer is yes then we as christians need to rethink our views on welfare because we are forced to work with sinners constantly.
You are going far from my point and you know it... Working with and comprising one's beliefs are two different things...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/9/2008 3:30:14 PM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
You are going far from my point and you know it... Working with and comprising one's beliefs are two different things...
You asked how can you separate political from spiritual matters. If I am as off as you say then please explain yourself better. Not trying to argue, I'm obviously missing something somewhere.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/9/2008 3:46:46 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
You are going far from my point and you know it... Working with and comprising one's beliefs are two different things...
You asked how can you separate political from spiritual matters. If I am as off as you say then please explain yourself better. Not trying to argue, I'm obviously missing something somewhere.
It's really simple... God first... There is no job, duty, responsibility that takes precedent over one's responsibility to God. Even if they don't believe in God... It starts there...
As for separating political from spiritual matters... Man cannot compartmentalize things to the point where he can act one way in the political/social/family/work realm and another in the the spiritual without issues arising. That doesn't mean one cannot work with others, yet there is a line and if crossed one is either serving God, or someone/thing else...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/9/2008 4:42:01 PM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
I don't think we're even that far apart if at all. Thanks for clarifying. What you have said sounds about what I am thinking of adding to.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/9/2008 7:24:58 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
No problem...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/10/2008 6:49:26 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 183
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
rlj, you make some good points.
I'll take it further.
I believe that God was instrumental in the formation of the United States of America. I believe that God guided at least some of the people who voted for and fought for the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and so on.
But the question arises, if God intended America to be a representative democracy, and if He intended government by consent of the governed to replace government by divine right of majesty, does he intend all Christians to vote the same way on all issues?
I don't think so. I don't think you can use biblical principles to decide every issue of public policy that comes before us. And I don't think God intended a voting block of Christians that would always vote in lock step unison on public policy matters.
That means that we have to be prepared for disagreement, even vehement disagreement, within our own ranks, without letting that become a basis for undermining Christian unity in the things that really matter to God. Of the 64 million people who voted for Obama, at least a million are Christians. Of the 57 million people who voted for McCain, at least a million are Christians. The reality is probably much much greater.
Unity within the Christian church is what really matters to me, even more than whether America takes the right track or the worng track. And political diversity seems to be within God's plan for America.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/10/2008 8:19:03 AM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
Very well said Strider.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/10/2008 1:06:00 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
rlj, you make some good points.
I'll take it further.
I believe that God was instrumental in the formation of the United States of America. I believe that God guided at least some of the people who voted for and fought for the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and so on.
But the question arises, if God intended America to be a representative democracy, and if He intended government by consent of the governed to replace government by divine right of majesty, does he intend all Christians to vote the same way on all issues?
I don't think so. I don't think you can use biblical principles to decide every issue of public policy that comes before us. And I don't think God intended a voting block of Christians that would always vote in lock step unison on public policy matters.
That means that we have to be prepared for disagreement, even vehement disagreement, within our own ranks, without letting that become a basis for undermining Christian unity in the things that really matter to God. Of the 64 million people who voted for Obama, at least a million are Christians. Of the 57 million people who voted for McCain, at least a million are Christians. The reality is probably much much greater.
Unity within the Christian church is what really matters to me, even more than whether America takes the right track or the worng track. And political diversity seems to be within God's plan for America.
So a house can be divided and not fall?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/11/2008 8:57:32 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
I think that the point is that we Christians can agree a moral issue like abortin is wrong, but disaggree on how best to deal with the issue.
The fact is, abortion is going to exist no matter who is president, and no matter what the laws are. What approach makes the most sense, and more directly attacks the issue-changing the laws, or addressing the issues that lead to some one considering abortion, and the issues surrounding abortion?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/11/2008 12:20:53 PM
|
|
|
PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 645
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
rlj, you make some good points.
I'll take it further.
I believe that God was instrumental in the formation of the United States of America. I believe that God guided at least some of the people who voted for and fought for the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and so on.
But the question arises, if God intended America to be a representative democracy, and if He intended government by consent of the governed to replace government by divine right of majesty, does he intend all Christians to vote the same way on all issues?
I don't think so. I don't think you can use biblical principles to decide every issue of public policy that comes before us. And I don't think God intended a voting block of Christians that would always vote in lock step unison on public policy matters.
That means that we have to be prepared for disagreement, even vehement disagreement, within our own ranks, without letting that become a basis for undermining Christian unity in the things that really matter to God. Of the 64 million people who voted for Obama, at least a million are Christians. Of the 57 million people who voted for McCain, at least a million are Christians. The reality is probably much much greater.
Unity within the Christian church is what really matters to me, even more than whether America takes the right track or the worng track. And political diversity seems to be within God's plan for America.
The fact that there are so many different denominations is proof that Christians can't agree on a lot of things...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/11/2008 12:48:09 PM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The fact that there are so many different denominations is proof that Christians can't agree on a lot of things...
And the church is still here. ; )
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/11/2008 7:41:49 PM
|
|
|
ManimalX
Posts: 1272
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
|
Why is this thread "stuck" at the top of the thread list and how do I make it go away?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/12/2008 10:51:50 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 8015
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
But the question arises, if God intended America to be a representative democracy, and if He intended government by consent of the governed to replace government by divine right of majesty, does he intend all Christians to vote the same way on all issues?
No. Only on issues delineated in His word. "Thou shalt not murder" Kind of makes any vote for an abortionist anti-God. A Christian cannot vote for an abortionist or a pro-homosexual without blatantly disobeying God.
quote:
Of the 64 million people who voted for Obama, at least a million are Christians. Of the 57 million people who voted for McCain, at least a million are Christians. The reality is probably much much greater.
Is someone really a Christian if they yoke themselves together with someone who is anti-Christ? I don't think so. How can they call themselves followers of Christ when they do not even try to do what He tells them to do?
quote:
Unity within the Christian church is what really matters to me, even more than whether America takes the right track or the worng track. And political diversity seems to be within God's plan for America.
The Christians are unified. The problem is that many call themselves "Christian" but don't follow Christ (heard of Vicki Gene Robinson anyone?)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/12/2008 10:53:09 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 8015
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
The fact is, abortion is going to exist no matter who is president, and no matter what the laws are. What approach makes the most sense, and more directly attacks the issue-changing the laws, or addressing the issues that lead to some one considering abortion, and the issues surrounding abortion?
So is it the Christ like thing to work to stop abortion or to promote abortion as a woman's right? Voting for an abortionist is anti-Christ.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 1:12:12 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
The fact is, abortion is going to exist no matter who is president, and no matter what the laws are. What approach makes the most sense, and more directly attacks the issue-changing the laws, or addressing the issues that lead to some one considering abortion, and the issues surrounding abortion?
So is it the Christ like thing to work to stop abortion or to promote abortion as a woman's right? Voting for an abortionist is anti-Christ.
My point is that a better way of addressing the issue of abortion may be to address it on a personal level than through the courts and politics.
Attack the issue at the base through relationships, talking, caring, educating, and ministering to all who the issue of abortion touches, and not just the innocent children.
It may take more time, but it strikes me as being a whole lot more effective than our present course of action.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 9:00:13 AM
|
|
|
Strider33
Posts: 183
Joined: 4/24/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
My point is that a better way of addressing the issue of abortion may be to address it on a personal level than through the courts and politics.
Attack the issue at the base through relationships, talking, caring, educating, and ministering to all who the issue of abortion touches, and not just the innocent children.
It may take more time, but it strikes me as being a whole lot more effective than our present course of action.
The two ways of addressing the issue are not mutually exclusive. There are a variety of Christian volunteer organizations that provide women in crisis pregnancies with alternatives to either abortion or despair. My wife works in one of these organizations. In order to build credibility with the client population, the organization has met the clients where they are at, rather than lecturing at them, and maintained a very high standard of integrity. So much so that Planned Parenthood sometimes refers people that come in to their center to the Christian organization instead. And the Christian org. did this without compromising core values.
But just because this is a good way to address the issue doesn't mean that we should be silent or apathetic in the face of an assertion that constitution guarantees a woman a right to a legal abortion right up until birth, and that the baby inside the woman's womb is not a human being.
There are secular reasons, as well as faith based reasons, for defending the rights of the unborn. And there are constitutional reasons for maintaining the doctrine of original intent, rather than allowing judges who think that times have changed to alter the interpretation of the constitution as they see fit.
Elsewhere in this forum, I've been advocating compromise and acceptance of the leftist victory at the polls. And yes, I believe that there are issues on which compromise is both possible and wise. This isn't one of them. So far, no one has come up with anything like a good compromise between the pro life position and the pro choice position. I don't think they will.
We may have to settle for less than complete victory for decades to come. But we should not forget the scripture that our position is based on, and not be wishy washy about what God wants.
_____________________________
Not all those who wander are lost.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 2:04:01 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
My point is that a better way of addressing the issue of abortion may be to address it on a personal level than through the courts and politics.
It's a serious misconception that the people are ONLY seeking to resolve this issue through the courts and politics... People can't decry folks(rightly so) for taking the law into their own hands regarding the issue and as well do the same when other folks use "due process"
quote:
Attack the issue at the base through relationships, talking, caring, educating, and ministering to all who the issue of abortion touches, and not just the innocent children.
One can't attack(deal with) the issue while simultaneously supporting the issue as many on this forum believe...
quote:
It may take more time, but it strikes me as being a whole lot more effective than our present course of action.
A course of action being right doesn't only and always depend on results...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 4:34:08 PM
|
|
|
John_O
Posts: 8015
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
My point is that a better way of addressing the issue of abortion may be to address it on a personal level than through the courts and politics.
I disagree. Telling someone abortion is bad, but then having the law say "Go ahead and kill your baby, it's no big deal" isn't going to change anyone's mind. We have to do both, change their minds and change the law.
quote:
Attack the issue at the base through relationships, talking, caring, educating, and ministering to all who the issue of abortion touches, and not just the innocent children.
Lets assume that the issue was just murder in general as opposed to murder of babies. Would you still feel the same if someone was out killing people becuase it was legal? Of course not (or at least I hope not), you'd be campaigning for murder to be made illegal to stop (or at least greatly curtail) the killing. "Well we'll just talk to the murderer and convince him to stop" just doesn't cut it.
What we have here is society, through it's laws, saying that murder is a great way to get out of a social fix. Absoultely unacceptable.
quote:
It may take more time, but it strikes me as being a whole lot more effective than our present course of action.
If we could get people who are supposedly Christ followers to stop supporting abortionists we'd make great progress in no time. Actually I'd be happy either way, they can stop supporting abortion or they can stop calling themselves Christians. (God says "Thou shalt not murder" how can someone promote murder and claim to follow Him?)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 5:04:50 PM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
SovereignIsHe and John_O,
First of all, I am well aware that the body of Christ is just that a body, and that each part serves a purpose. One part can work to change the laws while another addresses the abortion issue on an individual basis.
My own preferance is to address it on an individual basis because I primarily believe that it should never have become a political issue. It should have stayed a medical issue inwhich family and friends have input. When an issue, like abortion, becomes political. I beieve it stops being about the issue and the people affected, and becomes a control and power issue. When that happens it is doomed to fail, or be misused.
Also, I believe the Bible is more about us ministering to one another directly rather than finding solutions through the government. However, I would concede that in some cases, many Christians may not have a choice, or feel that they do not have a choice but to work through the government.
I apologize for getting a little carried away and perhaps not being clear about what I was trying to say.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/13/2008 5:28:41 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
SovereignIsHe and John_O,
First of all, I am well aware that the body of Christ is just that a body, and that each part serves a purpose. One part can work to change the laws while another addresses the abortion issue on an individual basis.
The same person/part can.... Where does this mindset come from that seems to believe it's on or the other? That a Christian can word to change the law and address the issue on a personal level?
quote:
My own preferance is to address it on an individual basis because I primarily believe that it should never have become a political issue. It should have stayed a medical issue inwhich family and friends have input. When an issue, like abortion, becomes political. I beieve it stops being about the issue and the people affected, and becomes a control and power issue. When that happens it is doomed to fail, or be misused.
It's matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of law, civil rights... A matter of how society treats one another... Labeling it a political issue doesn't toss it out of bounds... Doesn't make it taboo for Christians to support the law and or to change the law to address the issue in the correct manner.
quote:
Also, I believe the Bible is more about us ministering to one another directly rather than finding solutions through the government.
There is NOTHING in the bible that even hints it's wrong to address the issue in the political arena... God calls upon those in authority to act in a just manner... So how on earth can God's people support anything other than those in authority to be just?
quote:
However, I would concede that in some cases, many Christians may not have a choice, or feel that they do not have a choice but to work through the government.
It's not a matter of choice... It's a simple matter of being consistent.... Not having multiple views of the same issues... Saying it's a sin, but saying it's ok for people to do it doesn't work... That's hypocrisy.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/14/2008 1:46:50 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
SovereignIsHe and John_O,
First of all, I am well aware that the body of Christ is just that a body, and that each part serves a purpose. One part can work to change the laws while another addresses the abortion issue on an individual basis.
SovereignIsHe
The same person/part can.... Where does this mindset come from that seems to believe it's on or the other? That a Christian can word to change the law and address the issue on a personal level?
One's relationship with Jesus.
Yes, an individual can do both through voting for a canidate he believes will address/change the laws in some way. However, a more effective way to combat an issue of abortion may be to realize that it is an issue that has to be attacked from many different angles.
Not everyone is led to challenge the law as the only way to combat an issue like abortion. Some see abortion as a symptom of deeper issues that need just as much, if not more attention than the murder of a child. Some see a greater opportunity to decrease the number of abortions by working with people, either directly or in-directly.
Changing the way men relate to each other, sex, intimacy, themsevles, and women.
Change the way women view themselves and relate to each other, intimacy, men, popularity, and sex.
Change the way family members relate to one another.
Change the way the media deals with issues like abortion and the family.
quote:
leonfigg
My own preferance is to address it on an individual basis because I primarily believe that it should never have become a political issue. It should have stayed a medical issue inwhich family and friends have input. When an issue, like abortion, becomes political. I beieve it stops being about the issue and the people affected, and becomes a control and power issue. When that happens it is doomed to fail, or be misused.
SovereignIsHe
It's matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of law, civil rights... A matter of how society treats one another... Labeling it a political issue doesn't toss it out of bounds... Doesn't make it taboo for Christians to support the law and or to change the law to address the issue in the correct manner.
I am not sure how this applpies to what I said.
quote:
leonfigg
Also, I believe the Bible is more about us ministering to one another directly rather than finding solutions through the government.
SovereignIsHe
There is NOTHING in the bible that even hints it's wrong to address the issue in the political arena... God calls upon those in authority to act in a just manner... So how on earth can God's people support anything other than those in authority to be just?
God's people actually have little control over those placed over them.
God holds each of us responsible for our actions and decisions, as he does with those He places in positions of authority.
quote:
leonfigg
However, I would concede that in some cases, many Christians may not have a choice, or feel that they do not have a choice but to work through the government.
SovereignIsHe
It's not a matter of choice... It's a simple matter of being consistent.... Not having multiple views of the same issues... Saying it's a sin, but saying it's ok for people to do it doesn't work... That's hypocrisy.
You're right, it's not about choice. It's about how one feels he is being led.
You are also right about it being a matter of being consistent. Being consistent about what, then becomes the question. Being consistent about the issue of abortion only, or being consistent about your WHOLE Christian walk?
Being consistent only about abortion, or being consistent about those things that are actually within your power to change, and those things that are within God's power to change, either in his own time and way, or through our submission to HIM?
I would like to include issues like homosexuality in this discussion, but that issue already has its own thread or two. However, I will say that being loving and understanding with someone dealing with either abortion or sexual sin (such as homosexuality) is not the same as having multiple views on sin or being hypocritical about our Christian walk.
When sin came into the world it made everything, and everyone more complex than many of us seem willling to admit they are-that we humans are. The price for our rebellion from God is complexity. Because of our rebellion from God we are made to deal with very complex issues, with our complex minds and hearts until we turn to God and accept the relationship He desires to restore with each and every one of us. That can not be done, nor will it ever be done solely through the government.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/14/2008 3:51:39 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Yes, an individual can do both through voting for a canidate he believes will address/change the laws in some way. However, a more effective way to combat an issue of abortion may be to realize that it is an issue that has to be attacked from many different angles.
That is what I am saying... Doing both is attacking it for many different angles... You seem stuck on some idea that if one works the law angle they don't do anything else... That is a false premise...
quote:
Not everyone is led to challenge the law as the only way to combat an issue like abortion.
Nobody is calling for the challenge of the law to be the only way to combat abortion... You are swatting at windmills...
quote:
Some see abortion as a symptom of deeper issues that need just as much, if not more attention than the murder of a child.
That's nice, yet while you ponder the deeper issues unborn children are murdered at over 3000 a day...
quote:
I am not sure how this applpies to what I said.
Because you are under some strange impression that is someone is against abortion in regards to the law that is all they care about...
quote:
God's people actually have little control over those placed over them.
God holds each of us responsible for our actions and decisions, as he does with those He places in positions of authority.
Yes, that includes what one supports... Unjust laws, unjust politicians, whatever...
quote:
You're right, it's not about choice. It's about how one feels he is being led.
You are also right about it being a matter of being consistent. Being consistent about what, then becomes the question. Being consistent about the issue of abortion only, or being consistent about your WHOLE Christian walk?
That would be a start....
quote:
Being consistent only about abortion, or being consistent about those things that are actually within your power to change, and those things that are within God's power to change, either in his own time and way, or through our submission to HIM?
Supporting unjust laws isn't acting in submission to God...
quote:
I would like to include issues like homosexuality in this discussion, but that issue already has its own thread or two. However, I will say that being loving and understanding with someone dealing with either abortion or sexual sin (such as homosexuality) is not the same as having multiple views on sin or being hypocritical about our Christian walk.
Making excuses, and supporting the right for one to have an abortion is having multiple views and hypocritical if one mentions having a relationship with Christ.
quote:
When sin came into the world it made everything, and everyone more complex than many of us seem willling to admit they are-that we humans are. The price for our rebellion from God is complexity. Because of our rebellion from God we are made to deal with very complex issues, with our complex minds and hearts until we turn to God and accept the relationship He desires to restore with each and every one of us. That can not be done, nor will it ever be done solely through the government.
The ONLY person talking about changing things solely through the government is you...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: We Vote Now What - 11/14/2008 12:42:31 PM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Yes, an individual can do both through voting for a canidate he believes will address/change the laws in some way. However, a more effective way to combat an issue of abortion may be to realize that it is an issue that has to be attacked from many different angles.
SovereignIsHe
That is what I am saying... Doing both is attacking it for many different angles... You seem stuck on some idea that if one works the law angle they don't do anything else... That is a false premise...
Maybe I am sounding like I am stuck on that notion is becaause it sounds lto me that you are stuck on the notion that the answer lies mainly, or even solely, in the government.
quote:
leonfigg
Not everyone is led to challenge the law as the only way to combat an issue like abortion.
SovereignIsHe
Nobody is calling for the challenge of the law to be the only way to combat abortion... You are swatting at windmills...
It's more like the source of our communication problems, than any one person's fault.
quote:
leonfigg
Some see abortion as a symptom of deeper issues that need just as much, if not more attention than the murder of a child.
SovereignIsHe
That's nice, yet while you ponder the deeper issues unborn children are murdered at over 3000 a day...
Who is pondering the deeper issues of abortion when God continues to show us what the deeper issues are?
I believe I have already told you how my brother had his first wife have an abortion. I may have even said that though I myself wouldn't have a loved one have an abortion. However, I understood why my brother felt it was necessary. I understood because, if our mother felt she had a choice she would have aborted us. She didn't. Instead she never let us forget that she never wanted to get married or have children all the time she was raising us. Raising us was part of her "punishment", it was never because she loved us. She didn't.
Around the time I got married, I ran into my brother's first wife at the church my future wife and I were going to. Because of the abortion my brother had her have, If memorey serves me right, she told me that she has had a hard time having anymore children of her own with the man she was married to.
We also had a baby brother whom our mother purposely tried to miscarry, several times. As a result he was born sickly and evntually died of the ailments, most of the familt felt were attributable to her attempts to miscarry.
Yes, the murder of an innocent is tragic, I just believe that thee are other aspects to the abortion issue, other people affected by abortion, that need to be addressed and considered. If part of our Christian walk is to attract others to Christ, and expose His love to them, we must consider and deal with them, and what they are going through.
quote:
leonfigg
I am not sure how this applpies to what I said
SovereignIsHe
Because you are under some strange impression that is someone is against abortion in regards to the law that is all they care about...
What is wrong with someone expressing a concern that if one addresses the issue of abortion mainly, if not solely through the government and laws, he is running the risk, he is opening himself, to loosing sight of the issue, loosing sight off people affected by abortion, loosing sight of his Christian walk and influence so that he may fall to the temptation of power, or the perception of having power. I said nothing about it being taboo to Christians.
Again, I see the body of Christ as a body, with each part, each person having a specific function. No part is greater, or lesser than any other. And no part, or individual having equal ability or responsibility to venture into an area he/she may not feel led, or be equipted for. We need to work together.
quote:
leonfigg
God's people actually have little control over those placed over them.
God holds each of us responsible for our actions and decisions, as he does with those He places in positions of authority.
Sovereign
Yes, that includes what one supports... Unjust laws, unjust politicians, whatever...
I am not sure how to respond to this other than to say that perhaps, as Christians, we must not only descern what is our area of responsibility, and which are Gods, but we need to also look at the whole war, and not just one part of the battlefield.
quote:
leonfigg
You're right, it's not about choice. It's about how one feels he is being led.
You are also right about it being a matter of being consistent. Being consistent about what, then becomes the question. Being consistent about the issue of abortion only, or being consistent about your WHOLE Christian walk?
SovereignIsHe
That would be a start....
At last some progress.
quote:
leonfigg
Being consistent only about abortion, or being consistent about those things that are actually within your power to change, and those things that are within God's power to change, either in his own time and way, or through our submission to HIM?
SovereignIsHe
Supporting unjust laws isn't acting in submission to God...
Maybe the reason why we Christians do not seem to be getting very far in changing the laws, is because we are not meant to. It is not where we are to be spending most of our energy. It is God's.
Just a thought.
quote:
leonfigg
I would like to include issues like homosexuality in this discussion, but that issue already has its own thread or two. However, I will say that being loving and understanding with someone dealing with either abortion or sexual sin (such as homosexuality) is not the same as having multiple views on sin or being hypocritical about our Christian walk.
SovereignIsHe
Making excuses, and supporting the right for one to have an abortion is having multiple views and hypocritical if one mentions having a relationship with Christ.
How is having some sort of Christian influence on a person dealing with sin-one sinner with another- "making excuses"? If that is true, then Christ himself was the worse Christian that ever existed.
How is standing with, understanding, and exhibiting Christian love to someone dealing with abortion "having multiple views and hypocritical"?
Again, if that is true, the Christ was the most hypocritical Christian that ever lived. He had the power and authority to prevent sin when He walked the earth, but he never used it. He ministered to people, and showed them the heart of God, so that they could decide for themselves what was best for them.
quote:
leonfigg
When sin came into the world it made everything, and everyone more complex than many of us seem willling to admit they are-that we humans are. The price for our rebellion from God is complexity. Because of our rebellion from God we are made to deal with very complex issues, with our complex minds and hearts until we turn to God and accept the relationship He desires to restore with each and every one of us. That can not be done, nor will it ever be done solely through the government.
SovereignIsHe
The ONLY person talking about changing things solely through the government is you...
Quilty, only because you sound like it sounds to me that that is what you are saying.
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
