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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 2:08:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I think the "devaluing life" charge can really only be leveled at a handful of people. I think that, for the most part, abortion-rights supporters see the fetus as something less than a full person worthy of full-scale human rights. I'm not advocating that position, but IMO to say that these people just "devalue life" does more to hamper dialog and damage our credibility than it does to further our agenda and convince people of our position.
So what are they doing if not "devaluing life"? What sterile term do you suggest? This is like at the trial for my children being raped and they wanted to stop using the terms pedophile and pedophilia and use some psychology term that represented a generic sexual hangups...
The "term" fetus is used on purpose...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 2:16:23 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I think the "devaluing life" charge can really only be leveled at a handful of people. I think that, for the most part, abortion-rights supporters see the fetus as something less than a full person worthy of full-scale human rights. I'm not advocating that position, but IMO to say that these people just "devalue life" does more to hamper dialog and damage our credibility than it does to further our agenda and convince people of our position.
So what are they doing if not "devaluing life"? What sterile term do you suggest? This is like at the trial for my children being raped and they wanted to stop using the terms pedophile and pedophilia and use some psychology term that represented a generic sexual hangups...
The "term" fetus is used on purpose...
No, the term fetus is used to describe a specific stage of development. If you don't like it, take it up with the medical community. I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but there's a difference between not acknowledging life and acknowledging it but disregarding/devaluing it. If you're trying to get people to "value" life, but you haven't yet convinced them that it's "life" in the first place, then you're aiming for the wrong target.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 2:43:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
No, the term fetus is used to describe a specific stage of development. If you don't like it, take it up with the medical community.
We are not talking about jargon within the medical community. The term is used by those who support abortion to make the target of abortion appear less than human... I have four kids... I never heard the term once and I attended 99% of all office visits and was there for all the births... I never heard one person ask is she was "With fetus"....
quote:
I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but there's a difference between not acknowledging life and acknowledging it but disregarding/devaluing it.
They don't acknowledge the life because it makes their position look bad... It's far more on purpose than ignorance...
quote:
If you're trying to get people to "value" life, but you haven't yet convinced them that it's "life" in the first place, then you're aiming for the wrong target.
You assume these people want to be convinced...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 2:53:14 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
You assume these people want to be convinced...
Actually, I don't.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:05:03 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:05:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
You assume these people want to be convinced...
Actually, I don't.
-Dan.
The tone of your agrument suggest otherwise...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:06:34 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
This, and the fact that about 90% of Down's Syndome children are now systematically eradicated through abortion.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:06:41 PM
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Sonrise
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: JenP
I am by NO MEANS DEBATING that abortion is wrong or not. I am pro-life. However, my question is and again I'm not disagreeing but TRULY looking for the answer!: Whydo Christians make abortion their number one deciding factor for who they are voting for. Does anything else ata ll matter int he election? If so, what as Chrsitians should we be focusing on besides just abortion as the number one issue.
It seems like if any candidate opposed abortion but had tons of other ideas that were terrible and against our faith, as long as he opposed abortion we should pick him (I'm not saying this is true - it's an example) I hope you can see where I am getting at with my question. Should abortion and pro-life be all we focus on? It seems that is why people are picking McCain (I haven't decided yet - I know crazy but truly I haven't)
The thing about having abortion as your number one concern is that it's such an emotional topic that it has the ability to cloud everything else. I find one post very interesting...
quote:
For me it is very simple, if a candidate does not value life, especially the life of our most innocent and helpless citizens, then how can I trust him on any other issue?
A candidates stance on abortion is only a small area in which he/she can value life. What about the lives of homeless people? Why aren't they valued? What about the people who work their butts off, but still can't afford to buy groceries? Why aren't their lives valued? What about ex convicts who've paid their debt to society but can't get a job? Why aren't their lives valued?
The whole fabric of our nation is made up of such a complex fabric of issues that it's really impossible to separate one from another. The best you can do is see which one God has laid on your heart to prioritize. For some, it's abortion. For others, it's job creation. Neither has more intrinsic value than the other. Okay, so you saved the life of the unborn child, but how is he going to manage to feed himself to sustain his life when he grows up?
Both are needed to move our society closer to what God envisioned. Just like with spiritual gifts, He gives us the one He wants us to have. As we're all members of the same body, we function best when working together and not fighting one another. Given that, God is a God of balance. Tipping too far either way is not healthy. With such a loaded issue as abortion, it's very easy to tip right off the scales into a place you're not supposed to be and won't be effective.
The difference between the three examples that you gave and the pre-born baby? They're alive and weren't brutally murdered.
Life is paramount to my Christian faith. God loved us so much that he sacrificed his Son's live for our sins. Life was given for me; pathetic, worthless, sinful me. And because of that Life, I'm redeemed in Him and forever grateful to my Lord and Savior. If He gave his Life for me, the least I could do is stand for life for Him.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:08:22 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
This, and the fact that about 90% of Down's Syndome children are now systematically eradicated through abortion.
Exactly, Jack. Exactly.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:14:26 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
A candidates stance on abortion is only a small area in which he/she can value life. What about the lives of homeless people? Why aren't they valued? What about the people who work their butts off, but still can't afford to buy groceries? Why aren't their lives valued? What about ex convicts who've paid their debt to society but can't get a job? Why aren't their lives valued?
would the above paragraph be considered "humanism" or "socialism" ?
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:45:29 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1501
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quote:
A candidates stance on abortion is only a small area in which he/she can value life. What about the lives of homeless people? Why aren't they valued? What about the people who work their butts off, but still can't afford to buy groceries? Why aren't their lives valued? What about ex convicts who've paid their debt to society but can't get a job? Why aren't their lives valued?
If a candidate were promoting the wholesale legalized murder of homeless people, poor people, and ex convicts, pro-lifers would definitely prioritize that to be voted against as well.
"Make life easier on some people who have it hard while callously murdering others" is not a platform that seems rational to vote for. Even if it includes making my own life easier.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 3:57:10 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
BINGO! That's the second reason we'd better care enough to make this issue #1!
If the government can legislate when "personhood" begins, they can also legislate when it ends.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 4:05:31 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
BINGO! That's the second reason we'd better care enough to make this issue #1!
If the government can legislate when "personhood" begins, they can also legislate when it ends.
It's only a matter of time.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 4:12:59 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
The difference between the three examples that you gave and the pre-born baby? They're alive and weren't brutally murdered.
Life is paramount to my Christian faith. God loved us so much that he sacrificed his Son's live for our sins. Life was given for me; pathetic, worthless, sinful me. And because of that Life, I'm redeemed in Him and forever grateful to my Lord and Savior. If He gave his Life for me, the least I could do is stand for life for Him.
What it sounds like you're saying here is that our concern for others should end once they leave the womb. That's my point. If you're going to be concerned about life, it's a little hypocritical to totally disregard it until after the person dies of old age or natural causes or whatever.
Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but He also came to give us abundant life. That would include all the years between the womb and the grave, not just those few months in the womb.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 4:16:00 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but He also came to give us abundant life. That would include all the years between the womb and the grave, not just those few months in the womb.
Well, the reality is about 40 million people didn't get past the womb; one can't be concerned about a person who was never allowed to exist to begin with.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 4:19:53 PM
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rockitd
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
The difference between the three examples that you gave and the pre-born baby? They're alive and weren't brutally murdered.
Life is paramount to my Christian faith. God loved us so much that he sacrificed his Son's live for our sins. Life was given for me; pathetic, worthless, sinful me. And because of that Life, I'm redeemed in Him and forever grateful to my Lord and Savior. If He gave his Life for me, the least I could do is stand for life for Him.
What it sounds like you're saying here is that our concern for others should end once they leave the womb. That's my point. If you're going to be concerned about life, it's a little hypocritical to totally disregard it until after the person dies of old age or natural causes or whatever.
Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but He also came to give us abundant life. That would include all the years between the womb and the grave, not just those few months in the womb.
Absolutely, but if you devalue life before one is born, you can easily do it after. As Jhud mentioned earlier, African Americans were considered 3/5ths of a person...just as they are doing with the unborn and soon with the elderly.
I have worked with the developmentally disabled for over 15 years and if the abortionists had their way, none of them would be here. I also believe we should extend justice to the widow and the orphan, but if you teach that human life is less than the image of God, you'll have a "survival of the fittest" or give way to racism and fascism.
_____________________________
He'll finish what He started Phil. 1:6
www.myccm.org/rockitd
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 4:20:49 PM
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Sonrise
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sonrise
The difference between the three examples that you gave and the pre-born baby? They're alive and weren't brutally murdered.
Life is paramount to my Christian faith. God loved us so much that he sacrificed his Son's live for our sins. Life was given for me; pathetic, worthless, sinful me. And because of that Life, I'm redeemed in Him and forever grateful to my Lord and Savior. If He gave his Life for me, the least I could do is stand for life for Him.
What it sounds like you're saying here is that our concern for others should end once they leave the womb. That's my point. If you're going to be concerned about life, it's a little hypocritical to totally disregard it until after the person dies of old age or natural causes or whatever.
Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but He also came to give us abundant life. That would include all the years between the womb and the grave, not just those few months in the womb.
Really, where did I say this? What you're doing is referred to as a "red herring" in debating parlance.
Life can't really be "abundant" if your dead, can it?
Every successful abortion results in death. If you're for abortion, you're for death. I stand on the side of life.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 6:11:59 PM
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Dubya
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As I recall, once upon a time, there was such a thing as pro-life democrats. Not the kind we see today who proclaim themselves as pro-life but are either too weak politically to push a pro-life agenda or too cowardly to unite with pro-life republicans. Once upon a time, there was actually real political debate on this issue - not the polarization there is today.
Unfortunately, the democratic leadership today has effectively excluded any and all debate within the party on this issue. This had its beginnings over 20 years ago but really took hold in 1992 when Bill Clinton was elected President.
JenP, I don't know if you are old enough to remember that there was once actually political debate within the democrat party over abortion. That is because there were people who actually valued the life of the pre-born and still held to many of the ideals unique to the democrat party. Unfortunately those people were abandoned by their party leadership.
There are actually many people today, my age or older, who would never imagine voting for a democrat again... because of this issue. I have been told, on these forums, about many "pro-life" democrats in Congress. Until they gather the collective courage to challenge their leadership they will never have my vote nor my respect.
Some accuse the Republican party of calling themselves the Christian party or the party of God. That is only because democrats have totally rejected this very fundamental issue and allow absolutely no debate within their ranks.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/4/2008 6:23:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
What it sounds like you're saying here is that our concern for others should end once they leave the womb. That's my point. If you're going to be concerned about life, it's a little hypocritical to totally disregard it until after the person dies of old age or natural causes or whatever.
Who is showing disregard for life after it's out of the womb? Your point seems to be an unfounded baseless claim in order to shift the issue elsewhere....
quote:
Yes, Jesus did die for our sins, but He also came to give us abundant life. That would include all the years between the womb and the grave, not just those few months in the womb.
How you shoehorned abundant life into something abortion is interesting to say the least...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/5/2008 11:27:12 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
When I was a young woman, working for a right-to-life group, we brought up that because they had legalized abortion, they would soon follow suit with Nazi Germany and introduce euthenasia for the elderly, the terminally ill, and the mentally "incompetent." No, no, no," we were assured. "That would never happen in America." We thought it would and continued our fight for the children in the womb with our eyes on the others.
Now, we know Jack Kevorkian. Oregon has had the assisted suicide law for quite awhile. Washington state, not wanting Oregon to outdo it, brought it up again for a vote this year. And we all know the rest . . . .
BINGO! That's the second reason we'd better care enough to make this issue #1!
If the government can legislate when "personhood" begins, they can also legislate when it ends.
It's only a matter of time.
Washington State approves "assisted death" for the elderly.
Another step closer.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/5/2008 11:55:39 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 676
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: online
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quote:
Washington State approves "assisted death" for the elderly.
Another step closer.
I live in washington and I am ever so livid this morning. I said in another post, that I believe that this is the initiative that will open the door to controlling the population of the elderly. The problem with many people is thaey are short sighted when they vote. It is what's now, what can help my pocket book now, what can help my life now, what makes me comfortable now and what will happen is that "comfort" will one day become a mandate. Its very sad. Very sad.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/5/2008 1:59:08 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Washington State approves "assisted death" for the elderly.
Another step closer.
I live in washington and I am ever so livid this morning. I said in another post, that I believe that this is the initiative that will open the door to controlling the population of the elderly. The problem with many people is thaey are short sighted when they vote. It is what's now, what can help my pocket book now, what can help my life now, what makes me comfortable now and what will happen is that "comfort" will one day become a mandate. Its very sad. Very sad.
G
Livid. Right. Angry beyond belief.
I went to an election day party last night with family members in Washington state, and when it was over, my son was so disgusted that he just wanted to leave this state for almost anywhere.
When we got home, I told my husband, "I am tempted to make a bumper sticker for my car that says, "He's not MY President," like the ones about Gregoir -- "She's not my governor." He looked at me and said, "The Bible says to pray for our leaders." My sincere response was, "Yes, it does say to pray for our enemies." And that is how it is this morning as well.
And I learned that many people do not take voting seriously. Not at all. It is a game. It's like something onthe video: they push the buttons and make the little people move about, but they don't understand that what they are doing is aboout real life, real people, real children, real unborn infants.
I was hesitant to bring this up, but I just decided I will, without going into great detail. Those of you who know what I am referring to will understand. Have you, as I have, seen a certain giddiness among believers who became Obama-voters. I dare not go into detail about this, but I am wondering if I am the only one who has seen it.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/5/2008 11:26:14 PM
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Churchmouse26
Posts: 41
Joined: 11/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: JenP
I am by NO MEANS DEBATING that abortion is wrong or not. I am pro-life. However, my question is and again I'm not disagreeing but TRULY looking for the answer!: Whydo Christians make abortion their number one deciding factor for who they are voting for. Does anything else ata ll matter int he election? If so, what as Chrsitians should we be focusing on besides just abortion as the number one issue.
It seems like if any candidate opposed abortion but had tons of other ideas that were terrible and against our faith, as long as he opposed abortion we should pick him (I'm not saying this is true - it's an example) I hope you can see where I am getting at with my question. Should abortion and pro-life be all we focus on? It seems that is why people are picking McCain (I haven't decided yet - I know crazy but truly I haven't)
The thing about having abortion as your number one concern is that it's such an emotional topic that it has the ability to cloud everything else. I find one post very interesting...
quote:
For me it is very simple, if a candidate does not value life, especially the life of our most innocent and helpless citizens, then how can I trust him on any other issue?
A candidates stance on abortion is only a small area in which he/she can value life. What about the lives of homeless people? Why aren't they valued? What about the people who work their butts off, but still can't afford to buy groceries? Why aren't their lives valued? What about ex convicts who've paid their debt to society but can't get a job? Why aren't their lives valued?
The whole fabric of our nation is made up of such a complex fabric of issues that it's really impossible to separate one from another. The best you can do is see which one God has laid on your heart to prioritize. For some, it's abortion. For others, it's job creation. Neither has more intrinsic value than the other. Okay, so you saved the life of the unborn child, but how is he going to manage to feed himself to sustain his life when he grows up?
Both are needed to move our society closer to what God envisioned. Just like with spiritual gifts, He gives us the one He wants us to have. As we're all members of the same body, we function best when working together and not fighting one another. Given that, God is a God of balance. Tipping too far either way is not healthy. With such a loaded issue as abortion, it's very easy to tip right off the scales into a place you're not supposed to be and won't be effective.
Oh, I see where you're coming from now. Disregard my question in the other thread -- it was mostly rhetorical anyway.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/5/2008 11:35:06 PM
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Woman4Him
Posts: 14
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
For me it is very simple, if a candidate does not value life, especially the life of our most innocent and helpless citizens, then how can I trust him on any other issue?
It IS a defining issue for this voter.....
Beautifully said!
My 20-year-old college son has abortion as his #1 issue as well.
_____________________________
"What goes into a mind, comes out in the life." (Capstone)
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/6/2008 12:35:44 AM
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clayton994
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Bendigo, Australia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but there's a difference between not acknowledging life and acknowledging it but disregarding/devaluing it. If you're trying to get people to "value" life, but you haven't yet convinced them that it's "life" in the first place, then you're aiming for the wrong target.
-Dan.
Dan, I agree with you. What I can't understand is how anyone who is 'pro-choice' can't acknowledge that an unborn child is a living human. Jack explained it perfectly: "Once I came to the conclusion the unborn were fully human, it became impossible to consider it a secondary issue." I feel the same way. John said that "You assume these people want to be convinced...", and I agree with this also. I believe that's why they hide behind the label of 'pro-choice', as opposed to 'anti-life', which is the natural opposite of 'pro-life'. To acknowledge that 'pro-choice' = 'anti-life' would mean they'd have to re-think their stance on abortion... surely... For me, the issue is not and has never been about choice, but about life.
Cheers,
Clayton.
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